Tannehill throws with anticipation all the time, IMO. I don't have much problem with that area of his game. My biggest beef with him continues to be bad decisions. I think a lot of the other stuff would work itself out if he got his receivers fully on the same page as him (ehem Wallace), if he got better run after catch from his receivers, if he got some better protection, if the offense would install more and better play-action passing, and if he had a decent ground game at his disposal. Get all those things together and the only thing standing in the way of being deemed a "franchise" quarterback would be his bad decision percentage. Fact of the matter is Ryan Tannehill had four games in 2013 with 3+ turnovers hand delivered by him into the defense's hands. He had four more in 2012. He had three games with 3+ interceptions at TAMU in 2011, and one more in 2010. That's a total of 11 games out of 51 games...nearly 1 in 4 games going all the way back to college...where your quarterback personally turns the football over 3+ times in the game. That's unacceptable and unsustainable for a franchise quarterback. He will be replaced if he can't get that handled. For all the crap that Tony Romo gets, for all the reputation he has that would make people think he's the poster child for the same thing, he's done the same only 6 times over the same number of games (51 games) over the same time period (2010 to 2013). That's half as often as Ryan Tannehill. I'm not sure you could find a single quarterback that is widely deemed to be a "franchise" quarterback that boasts the same percentage that way as Tannehill. Or even close. The closest I've found thus far is Stafford with 7 games in 52 but that's still half as often as Tannehill. Consider also that Ryan Tannehill either set or damn near set a franchise record for most consecutive passes without an interception at one point. The inconsistency of his decision making is alarming. Granted these were only Tannehill's first two years in the league but that's not the point. The point of this is not telling everyone why Ryan Tannehill sucks and will never be good. The point of this is telling everyone what single biggest problem Tannehill has that will prevent him being considered a franchise quarterback if it is not fixed. I can't tell you if he'll fix it or he won't.
I don't know how often as I haven't sifted through every play looking for that particular stance. It can't be all THAT often since Ryan Tannehill took about 80% of his pass snaps from the shotgun. Given that, it's not surprising that people didn't notice that this staggered stance had been happening in 2013, probably in 2012 as well. We just don't execute from under center enough for people to notice that sort of thing. I can tell you it wasn't hard to find that play. It wasn't a needle in the haystack. Maybe it was just a lucky pull. I read the same thing you read from John Congemi and I decided to check the Week 15 game against NE (picked the game at random), and what you saw above was the very first pass play of the game. So I literally had to review only one play to find an example of where Miami had already been doing this. As for the play in question, the end result of the play was a 6 yard pass to Dion Sims who released from his position at the end of the line and broke left over the middle.
Interesting. Nick Foles adopted Tom Brady's signature pat fake. Where he pats the ball instead of pump faking. Foles said it works as well as a pump fake but its quicker.
Anyone know how big a role Lazor played in Foles' success? I thought I read/heard that Foles didn't like Lazor much… or some such. Would be interestng to know whether he will teach Tanny much or any of what helped Foles overchieve.
Right, because EVERY turnover is the QB's fault. You'd have to look at every turnover by Tannehill, determine fault, then do the same for every QB in the NFL to make a fair comparison.
I agree and disagree on some points. I definitely think he needs to throw with better anticipation and learn and trust to throw it to a spot. Better protection is a given, but there where times last year, especially in the second half of the season, when he did have good time and still had the same issues. Granted, the times when he had decent time to throw were few and far between and he needs more consistency from a blocking standpoint to get it down and get in a groove, etc. Definitely. Some of his turnovers could be due to the points I mentioned. I agree about the inconsistency in his decision making. Most definitely. I hardly think he sucks. Quite the opposite, I just think there are certain aspects of his game which need to be corrected or improved upon and I'm hoping Lazor can help him. We'll see.
Have you ever seen TB12, Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, etc... shirtless? Id like to know what Tannehill squats and deadlifts. Far more important.
First off batted passes do generally fall under the purview of the quarterback. Secondly, I would buy that some of the hail mary passes in question CAN be excused, except for the simple fact that we're talking about THREE turnover games, not just multiple turnover games. So to that point he's already had multiple turnovers and gotten to the point where he's throwing hail mary passes at the end of the game because they're losing, and as a result of that he has a third turnover. Is that excusable? I say no. I say that it's just the case of poor plays leading to more poor plays, which happens all the time in football. If all your 3rd down passes are 3rd & 10+ because you're throwing incomplete passes on 1st and 2nd down, or taking sacks on 1st or 2nd down, then do we just excuse the poor performance on 3rd down because he was always faced with 3rd & 10+? No. He owns that. Just as he owns tipped pass interceptions, just as he owns interceptions off hail mary plays that cap off a hat trick of turnovers. Also it should be noted that the Tampa game was not one of the games in question with 3+ turnovers though so the hail mary doesn't come into play for this question. Nor was the Carolina game. Really the only one that comes into it is the NE interception to end the game and as I recall that hail mary had a bit more of an intended target than most hail mary passes. And once again it's the fact that he had multiple turnovers en route to that interception. Without the turnovers he might not have been in position to turn the ball over yet again.
There are times when every quarterback doesn't see everything that he should. My point is that if you give him better time, better offensive construction, more mentally tuned in receiver play, better (even league average would do) run after catch, and pretty decent ground game...I believe the only thing standing in the way of him having tremendous efficiency ratios that would make everyone agree he's a franchise caliber quarterback would be the bad decision percentage. But at that point maybe even that wouldn't get in the way.
I agree with a lot of that, but lets not take away the instinctive part of evaluating coaches and the energy required to be able to get the best out of players, whats your gut tell you about his command and prescense?, sounds corny but I believe certain coaches have that charisma to inspire and I think its the most important trait for a head coach, I don't know if lazor has that just yet but im gonna listen real hard cause there was a little something something there.
Easy now. He's not Mark Sanchez. Besides we have Deej to critique his physique and comment on his vascularity and the state of his "bubble"... ;-)
Problem is I'm not being coached by him. I could see him being effective or I could see him falling into the very trap he himself described, being too demanding. Problem is I heard from a media source off the books that Lazor and Foles really weren't getting along despite putting a good face on things. I also heard Kelly took over interactions with the QB. So that would suggest that Lazor's style CAN go too far. Or maybe it's perfect for this QB and situation. Hard to say.
It seems that you are already finding excuses for Tannehill if the Dolphins are not a success on offense this year. I don't see Tannehill having to learn a new offense as a reason he should not take a giant step forward as an NFL QB. In recent years there have been many young QB's who entered the league and had to learn a new offense, with a new offensive coordinator. Luck, RG3, Dalton, Wilson, and Foles are all young QB's who had to learn a new offense and each of them led their team to the playoffs in their first year with a new offense and offensive coordinator. If all these young QB's could lead their teams to the playoffs in their first year with a new offensive coordinator, Tannehill has absolutely no excuse if he fails to have success in this new offense. Especially since he is going into his third year as an NFL starting QB. It is very simple as far as I am concerned. Tannehill must prove this coming season that he deserves to be the starting QB for the Dolphins for several more years to come. Therefore he must lead this team to the playoffs or else the new head coach next season should be looking to find a new QB in the 2015 draft. Many individuals on this forum have stated that Tannehill is better than all the QB's I listed, except for Luck. Well now it is time for Tannehill to step up and prove it. Having to learn a new offense under a new OC, is absolutely no excuse for failure on the part of Tannehill in 2014.
Definitely agree. Having a decent ground game would be huge. I mentioned better offensive construction and better blocking. If he does get those things this year, we should have a much clearer picture of him being the the guy or not. I hope he is.
i've been on him since he entered the league, his rookie year he was not in very good muscular condition, he got much better last year in the offseason and there was a noticeable difference, when folks in the preseason were saying he looked bigger my contention was he flipped his ratio a bit making him appear larger when in reality he was lighter, he needed to strengthen his legs and glutes, he needed to train for quickness and become more explosive in the lower half, the upper body isn't nearly as important as his lower half relative to what he needs. all that being said, its good that he's in the gym, he has improved his physique since entering the league, I just hope most of the attention is being paid to his lower body.
jim harbaugh..bruce arians..Gus Z...All guys that you know just have those leadership qualities, guess we should just keep an eye on lazor, see if we pick up some things.
Going off impressions, of those 4 games 3+ TO in 2013, a good percentage of those TOs were fumbles, which can be directly traced to undue pressure from a ****ty line. Even in the Saints game where there 3 INTs, I remember pressure being a direct cause of at least one if not two of the picks. For one thing, teams were sitting on short routes because they knew the line wouldn't hold up under certain blitzes. I know every quarterback must suffer through some poor line play, my point is to say, if the line becomes league-average, I think we will see a noticeable drop in 3+ TO games.
Agreed. His physique has changed a lot since this April 2012 pic. I noticed his forearms are much larger. Never get to see his quads and upper thighs due to the sports shorts.
I think the point CK is trying to make is that Tannehill has demonstrated a long term tendency to turnover balls in chunks. I don't think he's arguing that every single turnover is his fault, or that he can't improve. Simply, the tendency is real. 30 INTs and 14 fumbles lost (18 total, 4 recovered) is 44 turnovers in two NFL years. The final verdict is still out. But he does have to improve his decision making. I don't know if his pocket awareness will ever be terrific, but hopefully a strong offensive line can curb some of that issue going forward in his career. Obviously, a big year for Tannehill in more ways than one. Hopefully the offensive line improves enough to gauge a more accurate picture of Tannehill and his future.
I think thats right on CK. Alot of times in situations like these, people either click or they dont. Every thing sounds great. But, really, until the bullets begin flying we really have no idea. I think everybody who is either part of Dolphins football, or follows Dolphins football, is beyond the point of being patient for an offense to take off. Because of that, maybe you may have more "buy in" from the players, or perhaps more patience when it comes to being ok with a demanding coach. It could be that the timing is just right for a guy like Bill Lazor. Or it could be that he isnt a fit. I think there is enough there to at least have some tempered excitement. What we do see do far is he will be using alot of motion out of the receivers, multiple routes, and getting speed players into space. Just that in of itself is pretty dang cool.
I wonder though if some of that is, they whole TEAM, tended to implode in chunks. We didnt have anyone to pull the team out of a tailspin. Last year, we seemed to go a long stretches of the game where Tannehill was relatively clean, then all the sudden, it was like a damn broke, and the Oline forgot how to block. Tannehill all the sudden started making dumb throws...receivers began dropping balls. I think some of that is on the coach, he has got to have a finger on the pulse of his team. I think thats what upset alot of people about Philbin's demeanor, is that when the walls started to collapse, he ....just....stood...there.
The problem for RT is consistency, imo. Some times he did great getting the ball out - on short crossing routes, out routes and slants. Other times he did terrible, especially on deeper passes. He'd hesitate then throw it then the WR would have to wait on the ball. There were plays he got the ball out quickly but other plays where he focused on a receiver and would wait, pump, hesitate, etc. But, the "timing stat" (2.88 for Foles for example) has a number of other variables: play design; quality of protection; ticking off his reads; etc.. So, for example, if a QB is aware of the pass rush and simultaneously going through his reads and gets to the #3 option and releases the ball with good timing, that's a win even if it's holding the ball longer. There's no doubt that the OL play as well as predictability and play-calling had a negative impact on RT both in terms of actual ability to release the ball effectively, sometimes getting rid of the football early as well as confidence to stand back there and go through reads. But, other times, it's very obvious on film that RT did a lot of hesitation pumps not wanting to get rid of the football. Consistent accuracy; making good reads; and having the confidence to release the ball when you make your read - RT needs more consistency in that area from what I've seen watching him. RT is no far away, imo, but he does have to improve. So much of this game is confidence - in self, in the offense, buying into what the coaches are saying, and for a QB - confidence that he will not get sacked every time. That will make a difference.
Is that accurate? I'm not doubting the 18 total fumbles, just the 14 lost. The 4 recovered would typically refer to fumbles he recovered himself, but that doesn't mean the other 14 were lost. Where'd you get those numbers from?
Well stated. Especially the part about 39 turnovers in 2 years (it's not 44, he's lost only 9 fumbles)...it's a staggering number and I think while that number is out there if we're sitting here talking about nuanced stuff like throwing with anticipation and things like that, then perhaps we're trying to sound smart and coachy at the expense of ignoring the elephant in the room.
If Tannehill had a high passer rating and a lot of touchdowns nobody would be raising issues with him. So you have to look at the things preventing him having a high passer rating and a lot of touchdowns. As far as touchdowns go he had 24 passing touchdowns and 25 total touchdowns. That's actually good. That gets him in the top dozen quarterbacks in the NFL. Could he probably have even more touchdowns if he had better touchdown scorers? Absolutely. We know Brian Hartline is NOT a touchdown scorer. The team's best tight end Charles Clay isn't exactly a big target in the end zone for a tight end as he's only 6'3" which is small for that position. Mike Wallace is not a touchdown scorer from within the red zone. He's mostly a touchdown guy from outside of it. Brandon Gibson has been a touchdown scorer at times in his career but A) Tannehill only played half the year with him, and B) if you really look he's only kind of an average touchdown guy. What other things go into a passer rating? Two of them are touchdowns and interceptions. We've touched on the touchdowns and the interceptions are exactly what is in question. What are the others? 1. Completion percentage. Tannehill had an above-60 percent completion, which is good enough. Could it have gone higher? Sure. Don't want to get bogged down in the calculations in this post but if he got average protection that 60.4% completion goes up to 61.9% which would put him in the top dozen or so quarterbacks. I think if you improve the miscommunications particularly with Mike Wallace and Rishard Matthews you get another point out of that easily. 2. Yards per attempt. Improving the completion percentage alone improves the yards per attempt. By putting him under less pressure and getting fewer miscommunications with guys like Wallace and Matthews, you're going to improve the 6.7 YPA to 6.9 YPA. Can it go higher? Sure. Start with the RAC. Miami's wide receivers were collectively 0.8 yards per catch worse in YAC than NFL average. You look at the individual players and it fits. Hartline has always been terrible at RAC. Gibson has always been terrible at RAC. Rishard Matthews is a young player and he didn't get good RAC. Mike Wallace's RAC has been declining the last few years and if you look at his skill set that's not actually surprising. Bottom line is if you give him even average RAC from the WRs his YPA shoots even higher from 6.9 to 7.3. And again, that puts him in the top dozen quarterbacks in the league. So it's like I said before. If you improve the pass pro, the communication and the RAC abilities of the receivers you're going to end up with production out of the quarterback position that looks like it belongs with other franchise quarterbacks...EXCEPT for the turnovers. That's the thing Tannehill himself needs to improve on. In short he had an 82 passer rating in 2013 but if you make some doable improvements around him I think you get about an 88 passer rating. It's up to him to go from that 88 passer rating to a 92 passer rating by reducing the bad decisions. He could go higher than that if he also starts hitting more of those deep balls and/or makes an improvement in his natural accuracy percentage.
Yeah but it looks like two of them. I don't get the fascination with Lauren. She's kinda cute. But her body, yeesh. Talk about Mrs. 6 O'Clock!
