McShay advocates Miami taking Jordan – who has 12.5 sacks in his past 20 games - because “he’s long (6-7, but lean at 243), athletic, has explosive initial power and the versatility to play multiple roles along the front seven.” Texas end Alex Okafor (12.5 sacks) is another pass-rusher gaining steam as a late first-rounder – but likely not as high Miami’s pick. The Dolphins could move Jared Odrick to tackle to replace Starks and draft a pass-rushing end such as Werner or Jordan, though defensive coordinator Kevin Coyle said he’s not sure playing Odrick full-time at tackle is the best way to use him. Odrick had five sacks. Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sports-buzz/#storylink=cpy
Though I like Dion Jordan quite a bit, I would be surprised if Miami took him. The fact of the matter is, the same front office that took Olivier Vernon in the 3rd round, and the same coaching staff that played him on 450 snaps this year, doesn't seem likely to draft Olivier's direct replacement in the 1st round only a year later. Whether we think or recognize that Olivier is an inadequate pass rusher or not, they're likely to view him as a young developing player that has great potential and needs to be coached more. What I haven't really heard when people talk about the Dolphins taking a Dion Jordan is exactly how the team is likely to use him. The team that started a defensive tackle at defensive end opposite Cameron Wake doesn't seem likely to put a 6'7" and 240 lbs player in at defensive end, even in the event that they let Randy Starks walk and move Jared Odrick inside where he should be. Meanwhile, I think they're happy enough with Koa Misi as a SLB on base downs that they're not going to replace him with a Dion Jordan. So then you're looking at Dion playing a backup role akin to the role played by Olivier Vernon. But Olivier Vernon is still there. What would they do with him if Dion replaced him? I think Jeff Ireland is somewhat likely to like Dion Jordan based on his height, frame, athletic ability, etc. However, he also likes his own guys, the players he picked that are developing. And whereas Michael Egnew seemed a pick of a little less import in the 3rd round by virtue of the fact that they passed on the chance to take him initially and traded down in order to get some more draft picks before selecting him, Olivier Vernon was the first guy they picked in that round and he accounted quite a bit of playing time in 2012. I'm just trying to look at what's likely not what I would like them to do. If Anthony Barr were in this Draft, I am sure he would be in the same boat. As are Jarvis Jones and Barkevious Mingo, and very likely Damontre Moore. We can clamor and wail all we want about how much we need these guys but I think it would fall on deaf ears with Jeff Ireland. Guys like Sheldon Richardson, Sam Montgomery, William Gholston, Alex Okafor, Bjoern Werner and Ezekiel Ansah are far more likely picks by virtue of size and ability to play the run, which could lead them to be Jared Odrick's direct replacement if he moves inside to replace Randy Starks. However, we'll know if those guys are in play as soon as free agency gets underway. If they retain Starks, forget about it. In that scenario I could perhaps see a value selection such as Tank Carridine or Corey Lemonier taking place in the 2nd round. But they could also look at a direct defensive tackle replacement for Randy Starks and keep banging their head against a wall with Odrick at defensive end. Someone like Johnathan Hankins could be in play. If Star Lotulelei miraculously fell far enough he would most certainly be in play. I still think of guys like Dee Milliner and Johnathan Banks as being the most likely.
we do need quality depth, the third rounder Vernon could provide that at multiple positions, not too bad, I don't believe it would keep you from selecting Werner, Jordan?
That's what I'm thinking. With Vernon or without him, we need another pass rusher. There's good depth there, so the way the board looks now I'm thinking 2nd round. We just need to hit with that difficult #12 pick.
In fact if I had to develop a short list for the #12 overall pick it would be: WR Corderrelle Patterson CB Dee Milliner CB Johnthan Banks From there, I think who else is on the list depends on free agency. If Jake Long leaves then add Luke Joeckel and Lane Johnson. If Randy Starks leaves then add Bjoern Werner, Ezekiel Ansah and Sheldon Richardson. If Greg Jennings comes to town and Brian Hartline returns, then strike Cordarrelle Patterson. There's a part of me that wonders if Jonathan Cooper is on that list regardless of fan reaction to taking a guard at #12 overall. Note: The only reason Star Lotelelei isn't on the list is because I believe he'll go too high. Same with Manti Te'o.
It will keep them from selecting Jordan. Not necessarily Werner because he could genuinely take over Odrick's spot as a starter.
That would make sense, depending on what we do in FA- Greg Jennings, etc. I still like Rogers better than Patterson, but he is a good WR with good size, and he looks like he's faster than Rogers. I just like Rogers' overall game better, including how physical and aggressive he is. But there's always the 800 lb gorilla in the room to consider, all of the off field stuff. What a shame. Anyway, Patterson certainly looks the part with with his size, speed and acceleration. I'm curious as to how far down Tavon Austin's size will knock him down in the draft, and how his career will end up compared to receivers taken before him. Imo we need a slot guy and a #1 WR to make this right, so we'll see what happens. The Rogers thing just bothers me- I wonder if the recent successes of problem children Dez Bryant and Mike Williams will get him a little leeway. There a plenty of other bar fight stories to go around, Matt Roth included. I heard that there were other issues with Rogers' behavior, but from what I've read he's done well on the field and off at Tennessee Tech. I saw part of that K-State game and that receiver you like, he's an interesting prospect. But something just clicks in when I look at Rogers, I think that he could turn out to be quite a receiver. William Gholston is interesting, but as to Sam Montgomery- he seems like a solid player and i like him, but I wonder if he's a bit too much like Vernon and not a pure pass rusher. And that bashing that he took from his strength coach effects my opinion, that really doesn't reflect well. ps in terms of Patterson- one thing in his favor imo is his lateral quickness, as compared to the likes of Williams, Wheaton, and Rogers. He's plenty fast, although Wheaton is probably faster, but Patterson looks more physical. Williams has size and some wiggle, but Patterson has more. He can stop, cut, change direction, all that kind of stuff plus very good deep speed. We need a WR who can make great plays out of good plays, and ultimately score more touchdowns. Patterson could fit that bill. The question is, is #12 too high for him? I don't know. You can never count on being able to trade down, but the way this 1st round is stacking up, I wouldn't discount the possibility. I think that you could make a case for Patterson at #12, #22 or even near the end of the 1st round. Given our multiple needs, it will be interesting to see what happens if a Louteleli or Joeckel/Matthews are in play at #12.
I might be inclined to add Xavier Rhodes to the list due to fit and b/c he'd bring a physical element this defense needs more of.
I don't see why if they could take Werner they can't take Jordan...I think we'd be lucky to get him at 12..the man has special skills..covers so much space going backward or forward, effortless in his back pedal with natural cover skills, unlimited pass rush potential/wake protege, great size with a frame thats perfect to add quality weight, looks to have good instincts, good motor, can play multiple positions, and rare size/fast twitch ratio that will lead to forcing turnovers and making plays.
I'd love to add Jordan to book end Wake. Strategically we are in usual Dolphins country, away from Elite Talent, and the talent that figures to be on the board are not needs per se. This is how trade backs happen, and why we end up with "decent" instead of "elite". FWIW, I suspect they like Vernon as a Lb more than a De.
IMO the talent in this draft and our obviously inconsistent pass rush dictate going for one of the DEs at #12. Parlaying our #12 pick into a #2 CB or a reach WR would be a waste.
The thing is, Jones, Woerner, Moore and Jordan are all projected to be gone- if so, if you go for a pass rusher who do you take? Personally I can't get on board with Ansah. As to Jordan, with the way that he drops into coverage, I could see him at OLB, a post modern Ted Hendricks with that tall, lanky size. For the life of me I can't forget Sean Porter at OLB and as a pass rusher in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, and there's nothing wrong with Gerald Hodges or Arthur Brown either, except that they don't fit Ireland's size profile. Personally, I'd rather focus on athletic ability as opposed to a strict size metric. I'd just rather dip into the second wave of pass rushers in rds 2 and 3 as opposed to forcing a pick on one at #12 if the top ones are gone, especially given the number of quality pass rushers this year. I'm still pissed that Anthony Barr is staying at UCLA, but Jordan imo is close to him and he could provide some scheme versatility and of course pass rushing- btw what happens if Wake gets injured next year? The pass rush goes from anemic to ludicrous. Jordan I'm very interested in, but I'd rather go with Matt Elam than risk a pick on a Mingo or Montgomery, and even though I like Okafor, I like Elam more, and it's time to solve that FS problem. Best guess, pending FA results- just go for the best pass rusher, WR or DB on the board. Don't reach if possible, fill a need and move on to the next five picks in rds 2-4. And don't discount the possibility of a trade down.
What's everyone's take on Vern's best position? He didn't get the reps when Misi went down, anyone think he has coverage skills?
at strong side end? You could groom Jordan to be Wake's heir and use him as a nickel pass rusher in the meantime, but strong side end- not happening IMO.
I'd rather go for a boom or bust type like Mingo at DE than reach for a CB or WR at #12. There just aren't any elite types at those positions. And while I love Elam, non-physical specimen safeties rarely go in the first so I expect him and several of the other safeties in this great safety class to be available later.
This. A lot of what is being suggested for the Dolphins to do at defensive end requires them to change their defense, which I don't know is a safe assumption. They put Odrick at DE for a reason. You could get more pass rush out of the position, but they very well might not be interested in having a speed rusher there.
I agree with this. Makes logical sense to me. My only question is who will our SAM hybrid be out of Vernon & Misi? I haven't watched week 16's replay but I thought Vernon played well filling in, and chasing down Spiller was quite impressive. I actually like his future there TBH, and the depth we have with the 2 of them is great. That gives us a strong rotation at a more physically demanding position. IMO what would compliment us the most would be either Ansah <with Odrick moved inside> or Sheldon Richardson to replace Starks and then Carradine with 2b. Ansah provides that physical, beastly presence at SDE and does so with improved pass rush ability over Odrick. I could care less about him not being a 12+ per year speed rush sack guy. He might not rack up consistent double digit sacks but I'd bet top dollar he creates a good amount of pressures, disrupts passing lanes, and makes his fair share of plays behind the LOS. Nickel would be Wake-Ansah-Odrick-Vernon which is an upgrade over what we currently have. Hell, I'm not so sure I wouldn't double up on end and take Carradine 2b after Ansah. Firstly, they play different positions. Secondly, the value would be worth it. Thirdly, there's an opening at end if Vernon is permanently moved to SLB.
plus, why try to fix what's not broken? At least in my eyes it's not. The defense/scheme is fine IMO. It just needs a few more contributing additions made to it.
Nope, Wake mostly rushes the RT on passing downs, Jordan would play RDE in those situations. I suspect they let Starks walk unless the $$$ is right and make a run at resigning McD.
Ansah would be great opposite Wake in this defense. To play Jordan there they would have to change the scheme. Beyond that, they seem very content with Odrick at this point. I think theres a good chance they draft someone to play behind Wake, but thats about it.
I like Mingo's burst and quickness, certainly. I don't like the prospect of him as a NFL run defender, and I wonder how he'll do in space if made an NFL OLB, instinct wise. It's a tough call, but I think for me Mingo is a bit high in terms of the boom or bust thing. Then his teammate Montgomery- same thing as before. Good but not great pas rush, now the character red flags. The thing is, who is a better player, Mingo or Okafor? And Okafor is considered maybe a 20-30 player? I will say that I think that Mingo has a better burst. Honestly Rafeal, the whole thing confuses me. As to Elam, I made a point in this thread or another- look at Earl Thomas and Bob Sanders- excellent players and smaller guys. Granted Sanders was hurt all the time, but he was the NFL defensive MVP. I do think that we could use a very good FS, and Elam fits the bill. Also, if we pass on a guy like Mingo, what are the chances of hitting on a Michael Buchanon in rd 2, or a Corey Lemonier? I don't see an easy solution to this #12 slot dilemma, we'll see how things stack up after FA. And if we don't land a very good WR in FA, I don't think that I'd mind taking a shot at #12, and in terms of filling that #1 role Patterson isn't a bad call at all. Then you have a little dynamo like Tavon Austin who could do a world of good, but it could easily be argued that with his size limitations #12 seems high- case in point TY Hilton being a 3rd rd guy. And all of this is enough to give me a headache. The reality is, imo, that our #12 slot isn't all that wonderful this year. So if a top rated pass rusher is there, great. If we can trade down with maybe a team looking at a top OT, great. if not, do the best we can. I don't look at Mingo as elite, more as a dangerous pick with a lot of upside. It really wouldn't bother me if we took a WR or DB at #12. I think that I'm more excited about having 2 #2 picks and 2 threes this year than having the #12 overall.
What do you think about sheriff floyd if they are going to draft Starks replacement? Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
Not happening. .... Plus who would play Will on passing downs? Do you want hybrids and substitutions occurring all over the field?
I am NOT happy with how we rush the passer opposite Cam Wake on passing downs. But can I guarantee the Dolphins are just as unhappy? Can I guarantee that the Dolphins have concluded, as I have, that Olivier Vernon will never be the answer to that conundrum? No I really can't. They entered the season thinking Olivier Vernon is the bee's knees as a situational pass rusher, that he has great potential. That was the role they carved out for him in the defense. If the front office grabs one of the guys in question like a Mingo, Jones, Jordan, etc...what happens to Vernon? He's got no more role in the defense. Are they willing to do that? On the other hand if they take an Ansah, they can figure how they're going to use him...which would be pretty much how they use Jared Odrick right now.
I'm not so sure about that. Ideally I would like to trade back and pick up another 2nd. My picks would be 1)Ansah 2)Amerson-possible move to safety 2)Pick your favorite wr(Bailey/Hopkins/Patterson) 2)fauria That's assuming we resign Smith and sign Jennings Not sure this would even be possible but I like it
I don't understand why you think that WADR. Firstly, being balanced is more important on 1st & 2nd down, especially so that teams aren't running all over you and creating tons of easier third down conversions. Secondly, a strong side DE doesn't have to have 10+ sacks a year to be considered an asset to the defense. It seems like you want 2 weak side type ends starting simultaneously, which leaves us vulnerable vs the run. Thirdly, Ansah can move inside in nickel so that you can bring in a better edge rusher on passing downs, and as a interior pass rusher he's likely viewed as a plus. Fourthly, we'd be looking for another pass rusher regardless b/c you can never have enough and b/c Vernon seems to be playing more at SAM. Fifthly, if you went after a better pure pass rusher we'd STILL be left looking for either a strong side end in base defense or a defensive tackle to replace Starks if you keep Odrick outside..... or we'd be forced to re-sign Starks. No matter how you slice you're left with either a hole that needs to be filled or a bigger contract that needs to be dished out.
We could always attempt to do what Denver is doing with Von Miller and Elvis Dumervil. Have Cam Wake on the line at defensive end and take a long look at Keke Mingo as a rush linebacker. I've been watching some film on Mingo last night and today, and I've been surprised some at him. He's got some work to do, but he has elite movement skills and is already a strong edge setter. He plays with a lot of power. IMO, he has some Jason Taylor in him. My only qualm is that he should have produced more. One of the biggest differences in him and Jarvis Jones is that Jarvis is a finisher. Mingo will rock the tackle back on his heels, but he has no counter to disengage.
If you're not looking for an upgraded pass rush at the position, then I'd stick with Odrick and make better use of the high pick. If I'm drafting a DE or OLB high for this team I'm looking for a pass rusher, and it's not Ansah. ps I'm still wondering- who changed my profile to say 'Parcells' Guy ?
I'm going to borrow some still photos from a great article I read on Mingo. http://draftbreakdown.com/hide-and-seekeke After watching some film on him, the guy is going to be a better run defender early on than many think. If he ever figures out how to finish on the pass rush, he could be a dynamic defender. He's a risk though. Boom or bust type, IMO.
You've got it framed properly. While in no way will I call him "good" against the run, he's not really that bad either and he's more powerful than commonly given credit for. His weaknesses there are not a deal breaker. The thing that gets me though is IF you're going to be that kind of player (and let's be honest, he is), then your strengths (pass rushing) really have to be pretty strong. But the guy just can't finish plays. There's something missing there. He has elite movement skills but so did Dontay Moch.
http://www.pigskinheaven.com/content.php/1041-Barkevious-Mingo-Stats-Do-Not-Tell-The-Whole-Story Another good article on Mingo.
Good points, but I wonder if he's worth the risk. Personally, if I'm going to go for a Mingo type I'd rather draft a Lemonier or Buchanon in the 2nd round. Going for boom or bust strikes me as the wrong thing to do with the 1st pick, but who knows. It's going to be interesting to see how this #12 pick plays out.
The thing that gets me is that he actually finishes plays in the running game. He will engage and disengage, making a play across the face of his blocker in the running game. He just doesn't do it when rushing the passer. That's why I say he is a risk. The ability is certainly there. The question is whether he will ever learn how to do it.
Ansah is an upgrade over Odrick in the pass rush department. Go to settings and "edit profile". It's the "custom user title".
Man I really have trouble with Zeke Ansah sometimes. He probably fits what the Dolphins want to do but that doesn't mean he's the best player to take.
