My eyeballs. We can throw out all the stats we want and construe them to fit our argument. But when I watch the preseason games, The other three back stood out more to me than Daniel Thomas. I would rank the RB's going into Week 1 like this: Bush, Slaton, Miller, Thomas. But that's just my opinion.
Funny, I thought the exact opposite. In fact I was only impressed with Miller on screen passes. Other than that he looked like he didn't belong in the NFL.
At least this season should settle once and for all if the previous three seasons was the fault of lousy coaching by Sparano and his staff, or if it was the fault of the person responsible for selecting talent for this roster. The preseason is now over and the Dolphins can have no more excuses for this team losing more games than they win, this coming season. Ireland has been here now for five drafts and free agency signing periods and it is only him who should be judged on the teams performance this year. Sparano took all the blame for the losing seasons, but he is no longer here to take the blame. So if the Dolphins end up with a winning record and a spot in the playoffs this season, Ireland should get the credit for hiring the right new HC and finding the talent to provide this winning record. If on the other hand, the Dolphins once again have a losing season and they don't appear to be headed in the right direction, Ireland has got to go. The next GM can always decide how much of the blame Philbin and the coaching staff had for a losing 2012 season.
Yeah, I now like him as a person, but his evaluation talent has to be looked at very hard this offseason..last years and this draft class need to pick it up.
Olivier Vernon hasn't had a great training camp , but he is 21 , a baby compared to some picks , he isn't getting cut and shouldn't imo. If you draft him at this age and cut him because he hasn't fully developed , you as an organization made the mistake imo.
I was referring to his having the best avg per carry when I said most efficient. I neglected to include receptions and yards receiving. Thomas never got many chances in the passing game, but we know good hands as a pass catcher is one of his better qualities. I've never liked it with any RB when anyone talks about how their average would be this or that if we removed the longest run. It was like sometimes with Bush last season, people would say yeah well he averaged X yds per carry, but if you take away his long run of xx yds, he only averaged X yds per carry. I recall people doing that sometimes last season for whatever reason, I guess to minimize his efforts or something. As for Thomas, the 19 yard run was part of his body of work. To say if another RB had run the ball on that same exact play would have done better, is really not provable, so it amounts to supposition IMO. He got good blocking and did his job, but nearly every runner not named Barry Sanders has needed good blocking.
Fair enough. It's not unusual for us all to look at the same things and see them differently. Would you say Slaton, Miller and Thomas are pretty closely bunched together, or they are decidedly separated?
I totally agree, and get rid of Guyton too. He is the Naanee of the defense. Guyton is a prime example of Ireland doing things on the cheap or just not having an eye for ability. We also brought in Philip Wheeler for a workout about the same time as Guyton, along with at least one other LB whom I do not recall, and Ireland decides to sign Guyton, probably because he'd sign for less than Wheeler. Wheeler now is looking really good for Oakland and they consider him their best coverage LB since Thomas Howard.
1. You're using yards per carry as the proxy for "most efficient". Is that wise? Should we trade a 1st round pick for Stephfon Green (7 carries, 95 yards) or Keith Toston (9 carries, 100 yards)? If we're talking about efficiency purely on runs then I would definitely argue that Steve Slaton has been more efficient on a per carry basis when you watch how he's played and what kind of blocking he's had. 2. Daniel Thomas did get 3 catches. He only got 8 yards on them though. He can catch the football but that doesn't make him a threat in the passing game. Those are two different things. I understand partly where you're coming from on taking away largest runs. It can be a highly useful tool, especially when interpreting a SMALL and STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT sample pool. However, I often find people use the tool incorrectly. It's important to explain what exactly taking the run away shows and why he should not be given credit for the run. However, you seem to not just be rejecting the informational value of looking at the average minus the biggest run, you're rejecting the very notion of looking at and evaluating any of the runs at all. You just want the numbers on a piece of paper evaluation. To that I say good luck with Stephfon Green and Keith Toston.
I am confused by your reply. I was talking about the RBs, and you reply defending Vernon. I never said anything one way or the other on Vernon at that point. I will say now though, he is young, raw, inexperienced, but talented and still developing. Any talk of cutting him now is extremely shortsighted.
I'm talking about CK. There's really no reason to argue with him about Daniel Thomas, because his mind was made up on him a long time ago and pretty much everything that happens is somehow proof looping back to "BAD PICK". Olivier Vernon is the next guy who is going to go through the cycle.
I am a season ticket holder for the University of Maimi. So I watched Vernon play throughout his career with the Canes. Early in his career, I thought he was going to be the next dominant defensive lineman to come out of the U. He just didn't appear to progress over his last two years at UM, and upon his return from a six game suspension last season, his play was very ordinary. Vernon is still young and maybe he can improve as he matures, but right now he has played in the preseason about the same way he played in his last two years with the Canes. Merlin was the 32nd pick in the 2008 draft. Vernon wasn't drafted until the third round. Merling was expected to come in and compete for a starting job immediately. I don't think Vernon has this same expectation on him. This should be a learning season for Vernon. If he doesn't improve as the year goes on and he doesn't step it up next year, maybe at that time the Merling comparisons can begin. Right now though, Vernon in still learning to play in the NFL. Time will tell if he was a good selection or not.
I don't think he'll develop into the player people are imagining. He will not become this super qucik, outside pass rush threat. Just not happening. I think you pray to get Kiwanuka-like production out of him long-term but even THAT won't happen. I mean, a bigger guy like Mathias Kiwanuka, who is slower in a straight line than Vernon, STILL has much better quickness and agility than Vernon and it's why he can sidestep and beat OLinemen on the edge while Vernon can;t and won't. I don't see it in him, and I don;t see it changing. Sorry. I'm a full thumbs down on this kid, because it's not just a technique question, it's an explosiveness, quickness and lateral slide ability question that I don;t see. He moves with so little crispness it's like he's sludgey comapred to other edge-rushing prospects. O. Vernon Pre-draft measureables Ht Wt 40-yd dash 10-yd split 20-yd split 20-ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP Wonderlic 6 ft 3 in 261 lb 4.64 s X s X s 4.50 s 7.39 s 341⁄2 in 10 ft 2 in 31 reps X Kiwanuka Pre-draft measureables Ht Wt 40-yd dash 10-yd split 20-yd split 20-ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP Wonderlic 6 ft 5½ in 266 lb 4.74 s 1.63 s 2.79 s 4.13 s 7.27 s 32 in 10 ft 0 in 16 reps 29 Seriously, we need a guy with Kiwanuka's make-up and measurables, and that will mean spending a first rounder. No more second and third round guys we hope will become good pass rushers. honestly, we want someone BETTER than Kiwanuka! But he's the LOW-BAR to me of a decent pass rush LB converted to DE in a four-front. We cannot expect good production out of Vernon. It's not fair to him. I doubt Olivier Vernon ever has a double-digit sack season in his career.
What he needs, I don;t think you can learn. He's just a slower moving guy than successful edge rushers at this level. He's gonne abe a body that occupies a lineman, little more. The occasional tackle scraping off the block on a run or QB who escape the pocket his way. Any sacks Olivier Vernon gets will be because the other DE flushes the QB into him, because the secondary forces the QB to hold the ball for over a minute (even then, someone else get to him before Olivier), or the Offensive Tackle has a heart attack and keels over at the snap. I cannot imagine a single instance occuring this year (or next) where Vernon will put such a move on a decent OT that I say, "Wow, that was amazing. He created that sack." Next draft we get a real DE to pair with Wake. This Odrick/Vernon **** is not going to cut it.
I was thinking about that when writing my response, but decided not to pursue that angle. Seems he was against the Thomas pick from the moment it was made though.
Miller and Thomas pretty close. In wouldn't argue with you if you wanted to put Thomas ahead of Miller. Slaton I think seperated himself from Thomas and Miller a bit. I like his shiftiness and his versatility. I think he can be a real weapon in the passing game.
Agree. SLaton has less upside than the other two, but lower floor... you've also seen him produce well in a zone blocking scheme before (Texans). I think he's like the Garrard of the RBs in that you know what you get, snap-to-snap, a little more, wihich makes it easier to run the offense and move the chains. DT and Miller have more risk, more upside, but also more negative-graded plays, most likely. So, pick between consistently decent or alternately very good and not so good.
What amazes me is that this team has the same weaknesses as the day Marshall was traded, and has actually succeeded in creating some new ones.
And I'm still not sure how high the ceiling really is for Thomas. I still see an inconsistent runner who still runs gingerly at times. And to add to things, he may not be getting 'it' off the field either.
We disagree , and he wasn't a first round pick , and is one year younger at this stage of their careers , so it isn't quite the same , although in 1 , 2 or 3 years he will have to prove his value by his production.
I think Thomas could be a very good back, but not a Pro-Bowler (unless it was one of those years where the OLine just happened to dominate for him). Thomas is the kind of back you don't go into your season with ONLY him as your running attack... but he's capable of delivering 600-800 yards in rotation, imo, plus receiving yards and TDs. I'm not sure if Reggie Bush and DT are the ideal pairing. At any rate, next year we may see DT as the starter, platooning with Miller (the Bush replacement, though not as good yet)... and a third back who would either be SLaton or a similar guy. I'm curious how Javorskie Lane looks as he carries more this year, and if we don't look at transforming that body of his intoo a NAtrone Means, Jerome Bettis battering ram tailback.
Looks like Garrard is gone http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...vid-garrard-unlikely-to-make-dolphins-roster/ Can't put pressure on it or jog yet.
Exactly. You can only defend the guy through so many 6-10 and 7-9 seasons. If he's a new man now that Parcells left town let's see these past two draft have a solid impact, or show that there's a future core there. If it was Tony Sparano's fault let's see some of the guys who have been spinning their wheels a bit start to truly develop (i.e. Smith, Jones, Clemons, Misi, etc.)
Gotta agree with CK, that the most interesting phase of this week, to me, is going to be how the secondary shapes up. Smith, Mathews, Jones are playing well enough...not great, but better than anyone else...other than that, I'm not enamored with any of the other guys...Caroll and Clemons (who I'm a bit disappointed in, thought he's show better by now) are just barely on my 'radar' of the secondary group...after that pretty much everyone is the same....that being not quite good enough...yet...
The problem with this thought is that you can also say that this is really Irish's first year acquiring talent for Philbin/Sherman/Coyle and their systems which are entirely different than what he's been acquiring talent for the previous 4 years... It's a catch-22. The question will be which way Ross feels about the direction of talent that Ireland is getting. Think of it, most of us felt that the best way to go was to clean house, including Irish, but Ross didn't feel that way and now, were sitting here with half Parcillian talent and half Phibin talent groupings...which way will Ross look at it ?? If our thought process was that he'd clean house last offseason, and he didn't...makes me think he's likely to keep Irish around for another year, no matter how poorly the season goes...
Ok, Mr .500 The weaknesses ie needs for FA and draft were, in no particular order: 1 WR 2 Pass rusher after Wake 3 Safety 4 Right side OL 5 QB I see no improvement at 1,2,or 3. I see no improvement to date at 4 but hope for the best as Martin gets time. I see improvement in talent only at 5 but don't really expect better play this season. We are worse at CB and LB(Misi has shown me nothing in the new scheme)
Lol, in no particular order but somehow the ones we took care of are at the bottom. The QB spot is vastly improved. So is the RG & RT on the oline. I think you forget how bad that side of the line was. Those were far and away the most important and biggest holes we had.
What I meant was that I was not ranking them by degree of need. The closest you might be right about is 4 but I still need to see it, I did not in preseason. I will be pleasantly surprised if Tannehill matches Moore's prorated production. And what about 1-3?
But you're basically looking at it on paper and with a very limited preseason context. I don't expect anything magical at wide receiver, and there is clearly an issue there, but the rest is pretty premature.
1-3 are irrelevant to the discussion. You said we had all the same weaknesses. I've already shown we don't.
If you refer to Misi, as a rookie his combined QB disruptions per pass rush snap, were not bad at all. Then last season he was subbed out in favor of JT in most pass rush down and distance situations.
