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Sims-Walker not tendered by Jags

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dolphan197, Mar 4, 2011.

  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    :lol: Thanks for making it seem so simple.

    I guess Hartline is one of the best playmakers in the NFL then. lol. No offense, but give me a break, Pods.

    If I blew off a few digits in a firework accident, I could still count on one hand how many tackles Brian breaks or defenders he jukes. Hartline has twice the avg YAC b/c defenses could care less about him. His YAC doesn't scare anyone. Brandon's does, which is why Brandon has 3 times as many defenders around him to make sure he doesn't beat them. Hartline has like 1 defender around him and he still can't exploit that. I'd like to see you make this same post if the roles were reversed and Hart was facing all the coverage and Brandon was in 1 on 1s all season. Good luck with that. lol.

    How is Hart's YAC inside the 40 yardline? Inside the redzone? How many TDs does his "higher YAC" provide him?
     
  2. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Damnit. I've had to type this twice now because I hit Post Reply rather than Post Quick Reply.

    Let me start of first by asking you this question. Have you ever watched multiple Jacksonville Jaguar games? And I don't mean that as the typical snide, "Do you even watch the games" comment. I'm sincerely asking, because you being in Raleigh, NC I don't believe you have. I've lived in Jacksonville, FL the past 10 years and have watched every single one. So, if you have not, my knowledge of their situation, their team, their players is just more extensive than yours. That's not me trying to be mean, or show you up, it's just the truth. I say this because, when you post a highlight video of a player and use it as evidence for your argument, you couldn't be more farther from the truth about the player.

    Let me start with your TD reasoning. So, because he has scored more TDs, he's a better player and he has a role on this team. If that's your reasoning, then let's go and get T.O., let's see if T.J. Duckett can play RB. Let's sign Donald Lee back to play TE. Using TD's as a statistic on why a Receiver is good is a poor argument IMO. Especially when that receiver is solely dependent on a QB getting him the ball. Brandon Marshall averaged just under 8 TDs/yr the past 3 years in Denver before he came to Miami. Because he only had 3 this year, does that mean he can't score TD's? No! It means we had crap playcalling and more importantly an incompetent QB incapable of making some throws that David Garrard made to Mike Sims Walker.

    You give MSW WAY too much credit. He never received double coverage. He never received it from us when we played in 09, nor from anyone else in his entire career. He had every bit the advantage Brian Hartline did. He saw single coverage. Teams have been putting 8 in the box against Jacksonville for the past decade. Not until this year, have the Jaguars had a player in the passing game that caused teams to gameplan against him. That player wasn't MSW, it was Marcedes Lewis. MSW and every Jag WR has seen single coverage and zone coverage for a looooooooooooooong time. So, this idea that because he didn't play with great WRs, he received the bulk of the coverage couldn't be further from the truth.

    Let me ask you another question, again. Why would the Jaguars let their best WR go for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING? I mean not even a 7th rounder. Why would they let a guy go, who was, in your opinion, this talented player, kept defenses honest with his deep field ability, was a scoring threat, made defenses worry about him, etc. etc. It's because your opinion isn't right. It's not fact. The fact is that he was a marginal player. He was benched for Jason Hill, an in-season pickup.

    See what you're not understanding is that MSW is Brian Hartline! There is no role or attribute he brings to the table that we don't have enough of or need.

    Now let me address this highlight video. His first two plays are plays that Hartline makes, as well as any other WR. Hartline made one for 60 yds against the Bengals where he broke the first tackle on an out and went 60 yards I think. Poor him, the endzone wasn't 10 yards out like MSW and he couldn't score a TD. Also, it's important to say Marlon Moore made the same play against the Raiders for a 50+ yd TD. Again, nothing added at all. Second, is there a SINGLE play that shows him beating the coverage deep, getting behind defenders? Nope. So, in a HIGHLIGHT VIDEO, of his BEST PLAYS, in his BEST YEAR, we don't see a single play of him going deep? You know why that is? Because he doesn't do that. In that entire video, it's him being hit accurately in stride in a zone defense. Again, nothing any other WR on our team can't do. The problem? Our QB struggles with that currently. Is that the fault of our WR's?

    So, in the few single coverage plays he has, he didn't make any play that Hartline hasn't. Again, all of this is confirmed with the statistics I gave.
     
  3. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Just b/c fixing the ground game is priority numero uno, that does not mean that we have to ignore a WR who improves the offense without breaking the bank. MSW is not a bank-breaker.

    No matter what, we need a reliable 4th receiver in a bad way. If that means Hartline is pushed to the #4 spot and the #2 spot is upgraded, then who cares? The point is to get better isnt it? An improvement to the offense is an improvement, no matter how you slice it. Saying that a guy with 4 TDs and 1100 yards over 2 years is good enough to make us competitive and should remain the starter sounds silly to me. While we're remaining complacent with Hartline, other teams are adding playmakers and scorers who contribute more than just yards.

    It's obvious he doesn't match up to Henne's skill set, so how difficult do you want to make things for our QB? Do you care more about a mediocre #2 WR who would be 5th on the Packers depth chart than you do about our struggling QB? Do you care more about Hartline's 4 TDs than you do Marshall's production? Do you care more about Hartline than you do about helping our ground game?
     
  4. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is what is so irritating to me, because you just keep saying things and I have no idea what the hell your point is. Again, it seems to me your issue is with Hartline, not with how good MSW is. If that is the case, I get it, but just come out and say it.

    What are these skills that he doesn't match up with Henne? What are these skills that MSW has that match up with Henne?

    They are the same frickin player! I mean the same damn player. MSW doesn't offer anything that Hartline doesn't. And for Hartline's cost, he is a better option.

    Jags WRs are all the same damn WR. Matt Jones is Reggie Williams is Ernest Wilford is Mike Sims Walker. They draft the same proto-typical WR. Mainly because they've had the same HC the past 10 years.
     
  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    My issue is both. Hartline was better suited for Penny and Henning's offense. He's not better suited for an offense that's void of a true vertical threat.

    MSW has proven that he has value when he's not the main guy on the field. Hartline hasn't come close to doing so. Brian hasn't proven that he has value even as an after thought on the field. lol.

    There's a huge difference between MSW's 63 catches for 869 yards & 7 TDs compared to anything that Hartline has done. If Brian had a season like that, then there wouldn't be any talk about needing to upgrade him. 14 TDs over the past 2 seasons is massively different than 4 TDs. THAT'S 10 MORE TDs. 70 MORE POINTS. No stats that you can twist in Hartline's favor can make up for 70 points. 70 extra points most likely puts us in the playoffs. It's also likely that MSW has 900+ yards and 7+ TDs opposite Brandon; can't say nearly the same about Hartline. It's likely that Brandon's production increases with MSW on the field; cant say the same about Hartline.
     
  6. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Exactly...... and is it more important to potentially sacrifice a season b/c of this poor fit just so that we can keep Hartline as the #2 of the future? Not to me it's not. Whether Henne is the guy or not, we still have to give him the best opportunity to succeed..... and I'm not purposefully handcuffing him just to play favorites for an average at best possession #2 WR on a team already full of possession type guys.
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    If you've watched every single Jags game the past 10 years, then how do you know what Hartline is or isn't? lol. :tongue2:

    I've seen enough of MSW to form an opinion that he is an upgrade over Hartline. The benefit of living in NC is that I have to go to a sports bar to watch Miami play........ which means that I get to watch every game simultaneously, and I typically stay for the 4 pm games as well. So I get to see more of the rest of the league than many local Miami fans who attend games or stay at home to watch them.

    Brandon also had less space to make plays in, which in some people's (including analyst's) opinion is partly related to Hartline not providing enough of a threat. Helping Marshall is enough reason alone to upgrade Hartline.

    That's a good point, but I didn't say he received double coverage etc. I said he faced tougher coverage than Brian from what I saw. The only time he had close to Hartline's advantage was when he had Holt playing opposite him, and he had an outstanding year b/c of it. IMO he'll reproduce those types of numbers when in a similar situation with Marshall. To be fair, I didn't say that he was the guy whom defenses were game planning against. I know that honor belongs to Lewis. I said that he poses the biggest threat as far as outside receivers go, and as such he's more respected by defenders than Hartline is.


    Well, they haven't tendered him yet and he said he's played his last game in Jax. 14 TDs is a scoring threat. If that's not considered a threat, then what do you consider Brian's 4 TDs? lol. I don't think defenses have to worry about him per se...... but I do feel that they have to be more aware of his presence than Hartline's. I don't think that he will be the cure all for keeping defenses honest, but I do feel that he will keep defenses more honest than Brian can.
    Yes, he's a marginal player....... as the #1 that Jax was hoping he'd become. However, that doesn't mean he's marginal as a #2 with Brandon on the field. Again, he proved that he's a valuable, productive player when there's solid receiver opposite him.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree. He has 4.35 speed, which is something that we're sorely lacking on offense. He has nearly 20 pounds on Hartline and can play more physically. He can break more plays and make more defenders miss, and from what I've seen he's better at attacking the ball. Is he an elite playmaker? No..... but that doesn't mean that he's not a better playmaker than Brian. I've seen more playmaking ability from MSW in just a few games than I have from Brian over a few seasons, but that could just be my eyes.

    Most receivers in the league can make that play <occasionally>. However it's my opinion that MSW can make it more often than Hartline.

    I seem to recall him sitting wide open behind coverage a few times. The only difference is: when MSW catches the pass, he's gone; when Hartline catches it, he's possibly nabbed from behind by faster defenders. This could mean the difference between a TD by MSW and a potential FG after Hartline gets caught at the 7..... or the difference between a TD and a possible empty drive. That can be all it takes to see a season go down the tubes. 1 play. 1 loss by 3 points b/c the receiver didn't have the wheels to make it to the goal line.

    respectfully, I'd call 10 more TDs "making plays that Hartline hasn't".
     
  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I can't agree with saying that Wilford is MSW. You can't compare a 4.75 receiver with a 4.35 one. The only prototypical theme among them is being big targets.
     
  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Here's CBSSports.com assessing our needs:
     
  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Lmao at Ted Ginn stretching defenses
     
  11. #1dolphinsfan

    #1dolphinsfan New Member

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    That would be a great WR core with sims-walker, Marshall, and bess in the slot
     
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  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    MSW just is not a good enough Wr to justify it TP, as Rdhstler points out.


    Your 4th Wr is a STer mostly, would be helpful if they can return kicks, but they mostly cover punts and stuff.

    I care about fixing the running game..period, then fixing ST, then finding a passrushing compliment to Cam Wake,

    Hopefully we have some answers to that in Sheets (#3 rb, KR) Garner (LG) Incognito (center or RG) Hilliard ( a Hillis season perhaps?)and who knows who will step up on ST, maybe Restelli, maybe they bow up and spend some nice coin on Tim Shaw, that is my outlook.

    I also think it is healthy to want Wr, but it is like talking about Ferarri's when you really need more tractors.
     
  13. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Exactly..... so if you're implying that Ginn can't do it, then what's that say about Hartline who's even worse at it? lol.
     
  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    So what you're saying is it's perfectly fine to play an entire 16 game season with only 3 receivers when we'll be running more 3+ WR sets to make sure Bess is utilized? Getting the most out of a $40 million investment isn't a priority? Getting the most out of a young QB isn't a priority? Scoring more TDs isn't a priority?

    What good's a tractor if the field in front of it is too thick to tread through? :lol:

    I have loftier goals. I care about fixing the ground game, adding another pass rusher, improving ST, AND adding a better #2 TE along with an improvement at WR. Your goals are selling us short. :tongue2:
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    My unvarnished opinion is they like Moore and Wallace, and are kicking themselves for letting A Armstrong get away, so they do not intend on making the same mistake again.

    I think they'd prefer a Megget like running back (Darren Sproiles) and stand pat at Wr, that is why they have loaded the practice squad with Wr prospects, and gave Wallace and Moore so much run in 2010 imo they should feel like they have as good a Wr prospects on the roster as they are likely to find in the draft.

    That is why you shave off bits at a time until the field shrinks, you do not just drive right into the middle..you'd get stuck..:wink2:

    Agree about the #2 Te, that is why I wanted Shockey, hopefully they take a shot at David Lee as Henne needs more reliable targets.

    I do think with some Attitude on Defense we could return to the Top 5, do think ST can only improve.

    Our path to the playoffs is similar to the 2010 Bears TP, just solid, sound, football in all 3 phases of the game.
     
  16. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Worse at what? Running routes? Reading defenses? I'd say Hartline is far superior in both.
     
  17. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I understand the first sentence as tongue in cheek, but again, living in Jacksonville I'm forced to watch every game. And, yes, that hasn't had any affect on me watching the Dolphins.

    Please show me where analysts have attributed Brandon Marshall's numbers to the ineffectiveness of Brian Hartline. I've never seen it. Ever. I've read about his ineffectiveness due to poor QB play. He's said as much.

    He had "an outstanding year" because of it. Mike Sims Walker caught 60 some odd balls for 870 some odd yards. How is that outstanding? Again, you do realize that Brian Hartline was on pace to eclipse 1,000 yards before he was injured. He's not respected by defender's at all. That's clearly shown by the coverage he's given every game. He doesn't receive double coverage, nothing over the top. Nothing. So, to say he's respected more than Brian Hartline by defenses, is just incorrect. It's an incorrect opinion that doesn't hold water by fact.

    You're clearly the one twisting facts here. MSW had 7 TDs in 09 and 7 TDs in 10. Brian Hartline had 4 total TDs in 09 and 1 in 10. Not to mention, Brian Hartline started 2 games in 09. He started 11 in 10. The only difference in both there numbers is in 2010 TDs. A difference of 3 TDs in 2009, doesn't warrant a big disparity, not to mention when a guy starts 2 games in comparison to a guy that started 14. The difference? QB play. Chad Pennington throwing to him--a competent QB. Again, you've made no argument at all to a WR's TD stats being a product of how well the QB plays--especially in the redzone.

    How will he keep defenses more honest than Brian? Hartline has more big plays than he does in fewer games! When will they be more honest to MSW over Hartline? Near the redzone? How will they do that? Give an extra defender? NO! This perpetuated dream you have that MSW will keep defenses more honest, just holds no water. NONE. The statistics show the guy doesn't make more big plays than Hartline. Even as their #1 targeted WR, he doesn't.

    Here are a few stats for you, that convey even more what a poor big play threat MSW is. In MSW's "outstanding year", in which he was clearly a "scoring threat", he had 111 targets! 111 targets! Out of those 111 targets he only caught 63 balls. This is 2009. In 2010, he had 80 targets, only coming down with 43. He's a guy that needs balls thrown his way to put up these "outstanding numbers" as you put it.

    Let's take a looksy at Brian Hartline's. In 2009, 53 Targets and 31 Receptions. Now pro-rate that to the 111 targets that MSW had and what do you get?? Yep. That's right a more productive player. Even if he didn't have another 40+ yd catch, he still would have finished with more than MSW that season. Even if he didn't get another target in the redzone (which is a an unfathomable assumption, but I'm going with it here), he still would have finished with only 3 less total TDs. In 2010, it's more of the same my man, 73 Targets and 43 Receptions. That's the same number of catches, with less targets, in 4 less games!! Not to mention it's more big plays again! So, he doesn't have as many TD's. Maybe if we had a competent QB, or if he got the targets we'd have a shot. Again, an issue you've yet to address.

    4.35 speed? Heyward Bay is faster, let's get him. That means absolute crap. Again, he has 3 years of statistical evidence that shows he isn't a downfield presence!! Hell, watch your own highlight video to see he doesn't have any downfield presence. And trust me, it's just your lack of eyes. It's the fact you want something more than Brian and you're taking a name that you recognize and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

    Again, my issue isn't Hartline. My issue here is that MSW has no place on this team. None. He isn't an upgrade. He offers nothing, that any other player doesn't. He offers nothing. If we want to upgrade the WR position, let's get a Jacoby Jones type. Let's get a guy that actually has a proven track record of stretching defenses with a history of big plays.
     
  18. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In the 3 years that Ernest Wilford was a starting WR (34 games) for the Jacksonville Jaguars, he had 24 catches of 20+ yds and 2 catches of 40+ yds. In the 2 years that MSW was a starting WR for the Jacksonville Jaguars (27 games), he had 25 catches for 20+ yds and 2 catches of 40+ yds. Again, not much difference my man.

    Those 40 yd stats mean squat. You want an even funnier set of stats look at Matt Jones and his 4.39 40 in comparison to his big plays. Again, 40 times aren't the end all be all.
     
  19. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I can agree with that. However, Mike Sims Walker isn't that guy.
     
  20. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Jacoby Jones was a player I had in mind, he is solid #2, and he offers Return Ability, but they pulled him off of Returns for a time this yr to save him the additional pounding.

    I suspect they will look for a Running Back to handle the All Purpose Yds duty, and just simply keep Hartline as he has upside and works cheaply, why create a hole when we need running backs anyway? That is why a Sproiles type would make sense for us.
     
  21. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Agree. They're going to fill two voids with one player. That will either be a WR we bring in via FA/Draft or it will be a 3rd down RB we bring in via FA/Draft. That's why I see either player, Jones or Sproles as a solid pickup.
     
  22. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The thing is, bring in Jones and who knows if he still will return kicks? That is what makes Sproiles (or a draftee like him) make sense.

    To me, there are plenty of Sproiles like candidates in this draft.

    That is also while I like Julio Jones, I think the Franchise should have learned it's lesson about taking a Wr to be mainly anything but a Wr, his Return ability is sweet, but that is the side dish.
     
  23. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I like Jones even though he has tiny hands and is inconsistent. I didn't mention him b/c Houston placed a 2nd round tender on him.
     
  24. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Worse at stretching a defense.
     
  25. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'd draft Julio Jones because I believe he's an elite WR, not because ability to return kicks.
     
  26. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    He is one of the 5 or 4 yr guys who should be a FA after the CBA is finished.

    As for Jones, the problem is, they just do not value "elite" Wr's, there is nothing to suggest they do.
     
  27. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    Ted Ginn Jr??? You gotta be fkin kidding me. Brian Hartline is TEN times the WR Ginn ever was.
     
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  28. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Then, and once again, why did they give up so much for Brandon Marshall.
     
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  29. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is another one of those things that is literally not a fact based argument. They got good values in Davone Bess and Brian Hartline, so nothing they do is good enough and they clearly need to throw some more picks down the hole instead of focusing on you know, needs.
     
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  30. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Cmon now. Enough with the garbage straw arguments. NOTHING has been mentioned by anyone about Ginn being a better receiver than Hartline. Open your ears dude and quit being an idiot. The subject matter was "stretching a defense" and THAT'S IT.
     
  31. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    You may be right, Henne may be a better WR than Ted Ginn Jr. :lol:
     
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  32. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Yes, but is Hartline a better receiver than Thigpen? lol

    Ok, blame the previus post on my Ambien kickin in 10 minutes ago. Im lucky to be spelling anytying correctly at this point.
     
  33. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    Henne would be more of a possesion WR, and Thigpen would be more of a slot WR. :lol:
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    That actually makes sense, but I really don't see us being successful with 3 white receivers. We're not the Celtics....... and even with them it's common knowledge that Larry Bird was an african albino.
     
  35. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    Colt's offense looks pretty good.
     
  36. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box



    If the right Wr comes along, and for the right price, they need him. That is a fact. Unless you can pull a better Qb out of your hat?
     
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  37. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Touche'. Although Gonzalez is Mexican....... and I'm pretty sure Dallas Clark's grandmother's neighbor was of darker influence. I have no excuse for Austin Collie; however, he's had so many concussions I'm not even sure he knows what color he is. :lol:
     
  38. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    No, he wasn't, for the exact reasons I mentioned. Running really fast doesn't make you a deep threat.
     
  39. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    cant argue against that.

    Almost all of the better players at positions of need have been tendered, re-signed, or franchised...... so our FA possibilities are becoming limited. Grabbing a MSW might be one of the few ways available for us to upgrade our offense in FA. All the good TEs are gone, as are all the top RBs IIRC. A 1st rounder for Sidney Rice is another option. Heck, we might be limited to going after Nnamdi with how bleak FA is shaping up unless I'm missing something.
     
  40. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Neither does running really slow.
     

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