Seperation of Church and State goes out the window yet again.

Sad isnt really a strong enough word. National prayer day is already problematic imo, especially the military having any hand in it, but to make sure that it is limited only to Christian prayer is ridiculous. The balls on some Christians is getting old, fast. What's funny is that they do their "cause" more harm than good.

"Pagan wrote:

LINK.

Sad...

i have no problem with a "moment of silence" which could include a prayer if so inclined. but a denomination specific prayer is.....come on people.:no:

Excellent, at least they knew what they were about, Seperation Doctrine is Historically illeterate and pretty much unsustainable by any sort of colourable intellectual consistency other then "Gee, I don't like that..."

The hypocrisy is what gets me. Do they end the prayer, with picking up their guns so they can shoot people?

Seriously, why do some Christians think, after reading their Bible, that Jesus would want anything to do with war or government. As a non-believer, I'm offended for the rest of the Christians that actually get what their religion is about.

Forget the separation of Church and State for a minute, which is absolutely legitimate, (just ask John Adams) and see that there is no true Christian way to rectify or reason a way to justify this hypocrisy. If you take up arms against another, you are betraying your faith and the teachings of Christ, because you're either casting the first stone or not turning the other cheek. Its one thing if you're drafted, but if you volunteer to go in, then either give up the faith or put it on hiatus. Either way, organized & sponsored prayer of Christ, has no business in the military, and that's going by the very book the religion is founded upon.

"Finascious D wrote:

The hypocrisy is what gets me. Do they end the prayer, with picking up their guns so they can shoot people?

Perhaps, then again, perhaps some people need shooting.

Seriously, why do some Christians think, after reading their Bible, that Jesus would want anything to do with war or government. As a non-believer, I'm offended for the rest of the Christians that actually get what their religion is about.

finem respice, you have simply no clue what you are talking about, if you had like "read" the Bible, especially the New Testament one would discover how off base yo are, but don't let that get in the way of your ill informed opinions on the matter at hand.

Forget the separation of Church and State for a minute, which is absolutely legitimate, (just ask John Adams) and see that there is no true Christian way to rectify or reason a way to justify this hypocrisy. If you take up arms against another, you are betraying your faith and the teachings of Christ, because you're either casting the first stone or not turning the other cheek. Its one thing if you're drafted, but if you volunteer to go in, then either give up the faith or put it on hiatus. Either way, organized & sponsored prayer of Christ, has no business in the military, and that's going by the very book the religion is founded upon.

Then I would suggest you empty your pockets of loose change and burn all of your paper money to rid yourself of "In God We trust"

"padre31 wrote:

Perhaps, then again, perhaps some people need shooting.

Exactly the point.

"padre31 wrote:

finem respice, you have simply no clue what you are talking about, if you had like "read" the Bible, especially the New Testament one would discover how off base yo are, but don't let that get in the way of your ill informed opinions on the matter at hand.

You're right my bad, Jesus was known to be a violent man, who liked nothing more to bust caps into people who thought different than him. He was also a power hungry mad man, hellbent on world domination. Didn't he invent napalm?

I have read it, and I guess I skipped the Gospel of War.

"padre31 wrote:

Then I would suggest you empty your pockets of loose change and burn all of your paper money to rid yourself of "In God We trust"

Wow, hell of an argument!!!! Whatever you do, don't actually rebut with any substance, but make an ill fitted comparison, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I was talking about. Brilliant.

"padre31 wrote:

Then I would suggest you empty your pockets of loose change and burn all of your paper money to rid yourself of "In God We trust"

this i could agree with you on considering it is not even the U.S. government that issues that money. it is the federal reserve, commissioned by Congress, a private organization of bankers. "In God We Trust" is the only thing of real value on that paper and coin.

"Finascious D wrote:

Exactly the point.

Exactly the point..that you missed.

You're right my bad, Jesus was known to be a violent man, who liked nothing more to bust caps into people who thought different than him. He was also a power hungry mad man, hellbent on world domination. Didn't he invent napalm?

I have read it, and I guess I skipped the Gospel of War.

"..Extort no one and do not accuse anyone falsely and be content with your pay.."

See, I even left room so you could cut and paste the citation into a Google search bar for you.

Wow, hell of an argument!!!! Whatever you do, don't actually rebut with any substance, but make an ill fitted comparison, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I was talking about. Brilliant.

Quite.

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

this i could agree with you on considering it is not even the U.S. government that issues that money. it is the federal reserve, commissioned by Congress, a private organization of bankers. "In God We Trust" is the only thing of real value on that paper and coin.

More or less Dolphin1, and even then print enough of them to the point that even that slogan is cheapened and a collapse will occur, or at least the sort of stealth inflation that crushes Social Security recipients into a quite poverty.

I do believe that Drunken Brazilian Sailors have more fiscal discipline then our current Govt does, and my apologies to Drunken Brazilian Sailors for mentioning them in the same breath as our Federal Government.

America's relationship with the Divine started at the beginning of the place, even down to Plymouth Rock, to attempt to say that "Seperation of Church and State" is some sort of Ober Dictum that can be used to safely ignore the fact of the interaction of Providence and the US Govt is simply Historically unsustainable.

"padre31 wrote:

More or less Dolphin1, and even then print enough of them to the point that even that slogan is cheapened and a collapse will occur, or at least the sort of stealth inflation that crushes Social Security recipients into a quite poverty.

I do believe that Drunken Brazilian Sailors have more fiscal discipline then our current Govt does, and my apologies to Drunken Brazilian Sailors for mentioning them in the same breath as our Federal Government.

America's relationship with the Divine started at the beginning of the place, even down to Plymouth Rock, to attempt to say that "Seperation of Church and State" is some sort of Ober Dictum that can be used to safely ignore the fact of the interaction of Providence and the US Govt is simply Historically unsustainable.

but don't forget that the idea was for religious freedom in general. not to be assigned to a specific denomination. also to include those that wish to not participate at all, for all to be free from persecution. the idea of seperation is to allow for freedom to have faith without direction from the government.

this clearly flies in the face of that ideal. also alienating the portion of the military that is not Christian, a portion i would think to be quite substantial.

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

but don't forget that the idea was for religious freedom in general. not to be assigned to a specific denomination. also to include those that wish to not participate at all, for all to be free from persecution. the idea of seperation is to allow for freedom to have faith without direction from the government.

this clearly flies in the face of that ideal. also alienating the portion of the military that is not Christian, a portion i would think to be quite substantial.

I don't believe it does, there is no element of coercion nor force involved, despite Pagan's bolding of the news clip, nowhere does it state "we will force people under us to" the Officers in question simply signed a statement of faith, then co-ordinated events with Christian Groups, there is a National Day of Prayer called by the President (presumably) so were these folks supposed to ignore it based on a nebulos doctrine?

"padre31 wrote:

I don't believe it does, there is no element of coercion nor force involved, despite Pagan's bolding of the news clip, nowhere does it state "we will force people under us to" the Officers in question simply signed a statement of faith, then co-ordinated events with Christian Groups, there is a National Day of Prayer called by the President (presumably) so were these folks supposed to ignore it based on a nebulos doctrine?

You know bro...I'd take all your joy at this happeneing, and your defense of it - and even this last statement of yours - a little more seriously if it wasn't for this:

The Wiccan group at Fort Hood, Open Circle, is a recognized religious organization by the Army chaplain. The organization went through the proper channels to have their religion recognized. Protestors, specifically Georgia Congressman Bob Barr, who is a conservative Republican, have publicly denounced the practice of Wicca on Army bases.

Barr rejects the guidelines that are outlined in the Army chaplains handbook, "Religious Requirements and Practices of Certain Selected Groups," for a more narrow view of accommodation. In a letter to Lt. Gen. Leon S. Leponte, commander at Fort Hood, Barr stated that Wicca worship on base is "nonsense and a dangerous precedent that should be ended immediately."

Barr also compared Wicca to Satanism and other religions he feels are unconventional as he stated, "Whats next? Will armored divisions be forced to travel with sacrificial animals for satanic rituals? Will Rastafarians demand the inclusion of ritualistic marijuana cigarettes in their rations?". Barr fails to recognize that a religion is only recognized after meeting certain military guidelines that pose no threat to humans or ethics, and sacrificing animals and smoking marijuana are highly unlikely sanctions with the Army's strict standards.

Because of the Army's refusal to stop Wiccan practice on base, because it is a *religious organization providing for the spiritual needs* of the soldiers, Barr, has begun a campaign against the practice of Wicca on bases . As a challenge to the sanctions, Barr tried to amend a defense authorization bill to prohibit the practice of Wicca or any other form of Witchcraft at Defense Department facilities . Although the bill failed, Barr has been quoted saying that he will pursue the issue legislatively again and again until he succeeds.

In league with Barr protesting the Wiccan sanctions are many Christian groups who have called on Christians not to enlist or re-enlist in the Army until Wiccans are not allowed to practice anymore.

The hypocrisy is astounding.

"Pagan wrote:

You know bro...I'd take all your joy at this happeneing, and your defense of it - and even this last statement of yours - a little more seriously if it wasn't for this:



The hypocrisy is astounding.

Price Tea China Pagan as in what does that have to do with your Thread Starter and the horrors of a National Day of Prayer?

"padre31 wrote:

there is a National Day of Prayer called by the President

Does he also call a National Day of We Don't Believe in Christ, Christianity or Religion and Take Pride in It?

"padre31 wrote:

Price Tea China Pagan as in what does that have to do with your Thread Starter and the horrors of a National Day of Prayer?

What does it have to do with it? C'mon padre, you're sharper than that.

To allow one faith to organize on Army bases and yet attempt to bar another from doing so has nothing to do with the topic?

As for the "horrors of a national day of prayer", you said "nowhere does it state 'we will force people under us to'".

You are correct. However, it states - maybe in not these exact words - "we will not allow anyone but Christians to partake in this supposed national day of prayer."

This is a brilliant move (switch sarcasm on) being practiced in an environment where teamwork and unity is vital to the success of the organization. Like Dolphan1 said, it alienates a large portion of the military.

Seems to me that if it's a national day of prayer, then the entire nation should be included....all faiths, all denominations. Pray to whatever invisible person in the sky you believe in, but do it as a nation.

"padre31 wrote:

I don't believe it does, there is no element of coercion nor force involved, despite Pagan's bolding of the news clip, nowhere does it state "we will force people under us to" the Officers in question simply signed a statement of faith, then co-ordinated events with Christian Groups, there is a National Day of Prayer called by the President (presumably) so were these folks supposed to ignore it based on a nebulos doctrine?

this is an organization; http://www.ndptf.org/home/home.html. there is no Presidential decrea here, although i am sure that Mr Bush whole heartedly supports it. they were to ignore it because it was exclusionary. the fact that it was also sanctioned by certain officers of the military makes it worse. an event like this, if sanctions were needed at all, should have been non denominational and there for included ALL authorized religious groups.

if the prayer day needed to be Christian based only and a statement of faith required, then this should have been done on personal time and not at all involving the military, which by seperation rule makes it neutral in faith.

"padre31 wrote:

Exactly the point..that you missed.

Yup I missed it. I forgot you you were quoting Jesus. He was always saying how certain people need to be killed.

"padre31 wrote:

"..Extort no one and do not accuse anyone falsely and be content with your pay.."See, I even left room so you could cut and paste the citation into a Google search bar for you.

So let's see here, Jesus told some soldiers not to take money from people by force, and you consider that evidence, that Jesus was in favor of war? Really? You know he turned water into wine, I guess he was for drunk driving too.

"padre31 wrote:

Quite.

Yeah, quite indeed. Do you follow a particular domination?

"padre31 wrote:

Price Tea China Pagan as in what does that have to do with your Thread Starter and the horrors of a National Day of Prayer?

i bet things would also be different if this was organized by a Wicca organization calling for a "National Pray to the Goddess" day. if all you had to do was sign a statement of belief to participate and was sanctioned by the military. the Right would have a field day.

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

i bet things would also be different if this was organized by a Wicca organization calling for a "National Pray to the Goddess" day. if all you had to do was sign a statement of belief to participate and was sanctioned by the military. the Right would have a field day.

This is why you can't argue this debate in this way. There are loop-holes everywhere AND you have to assume that the other people can put themselves in your shoes. Its why I've taken it to the point where, it is clear. Which is, that Jesus was against war, therefore, bringing this kind of thing to the military, is blasphemous.

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
April 22, 2008

National Day of Prayer, 2008

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of
America

America trusts in the abiding power of prayer and asks for the wisdom to discern God's will in times of joy and of trial. As we observe this National Day of Prayer, we recognize our dependence on the Almighty, we thank Him for the many blessings He has bestowed upon us, and we put our country's future in His hands.

From our Nation's humble beginnings, prayer has guided our leaders and played a vital role in the life and history of the United States. Americans of many different faiths share the profound conviction that God listens to the voice of His children and pours His grace upon those who seek Him in prayer. By surrendering our lives to our loving Father, we learn to serve His eternal purposes, and we are strengthened, refreshed, and ready for all that may come.

On this National Day of Prayer, we ask God's continued blessings on our country. This year's theme, "Prayer! America's Strength and Shield," is taken from Psalm 28:7, "The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I am helped." On this day, we pray for the safety of our brave men and women in uniform, for their families, and for the comfort and recovery of those who have been wounded.

The Congress, by Public Law 100-307, as amended, has called on our Nation to reaffirm the role of prayer in our society by recognizing each year a "National Day of Prayer."

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 1, 2008, as a National Day of Prayer. I ask the citizens of our Nation to give thanks, each according to his or her own faith, for the freedoms and blessings we have received and for God's continued guidance, comfort, and protection. I invite all Americans to join in observing this day with appropriate programs, ceremonies, and activities.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-first day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand eight, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-second.

GEORGE W. BUSH

here is what i could find on public law 100-307;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/day_pray4.htm

I used to participate in NDP in local communities. I don't anymore. They often digress into triumphant "prayers" for whatever party's platform happens to have a majority at the gathering.

I include prayers for the nation every week in our worship services. I regularly pray for the nation, the president, the governor, mayor, etc. To me that is part of my call.

In this case we have free speech questions intersecting with non-establishment issues. It is the new battleground in constitutional law. What gives this situation a new twist is the fact that they are uniformed personnel.

I have friends and classmates who are chaplains. They note a change in the corps. Once upon a time the military's chaplains were among the most tolerant and open minded clergy around. In recent years, however, more and more evangelicals have joined. The battle of whether you were an American first or a practioner of your faith has become a hazier issue.

Some commanders are indeed right wing Christians as Pagan pointed out and were demanding tough limits on anything else and pushing strong proselytizing. Others were refusing to allow their chaplains to speak about their faith at all or demanding Christians lead Jewish services , etc There is an underlying battle in the military over the place of faith right now for which this article is just the tip of the iceberg.

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

I used to participate in NDP in local communities. I don't anymore. They often digress into triumphant "prayers" for whatever party's platform happens to have a majority at the gathering.

I include prayers for the nation every week in our worship services. I regularly pray for the nation, the president, the governor, mayor, etc. To me that is part of my call.

In this case we have free speech questions intersecting with non-establishment issues. It is the new battleground in constitutional law. What gives this situation a new twist is the fact that they are uniformed personnel.

I have friends and classmates who are chaplains. They note a change in the corps. Once upon a time the military's chaplains were among the most tolerant and open minded clergy around. In recent years, however, more and more evangelicals have joined. The battle of whether you were an American first or a practioner of your faith has become a hazier issue.

Some commanders are indeed right wing Christians as Pagan pointed out and were demanding tough limits on anything else and pushing strong proselytizing. Others were refusing to allow their chaplains to speak about their faith at all or demanding Christians lead Jewish services , etc There is an underlying battle in the military over the place of faith right now for which this article is just the tip of the iceberg.

it would seem to me that tolerance is no longer an issue for some mainstream Christians. there should be no "battleground" about which comes first. you are what you are. your nationality should not impinge upon your faith, as your faith should not impinge on your nationality. they should co-exist.

Come on guys. We all know the Constitution was copy and pasted from the Bible. Lets just dissolve the Bill of Rights and put the Ten Commandments in their place. The military being Christian is harmless. Its not like they could enforce their beliefs on anyone. :wink2:

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

it would seem to me that tolerance is no longer an issue for some mainstream Christians. there should be no "battleground" about which comes first. you are what you are. your nationality should not impinge upon your faith, as your faith should not impinge on your nationality. they should co-exist.

In a perfect world that would be fine but this world is far from perfect.

An 18 year old enlistee doesn't ever think that an order will ever come that might cause them a pang of conscience. But they do. Can you imagine what a Moslem soldier must have felt like on 9/11? Being a warrior doesn't happen in a moral vacuum and that is where chaplains can help. American civil religion has always mixed faith and nationalism and still does.

That causes consequences, intended and unintended, and I am afraid always will.