Saw this posted at another Forum......(Bess content)

Yeah let's trade away one of the best slot WR in the Nfl and further establish ourself as a joke of an organization

*facepalm*

"GISH wrote:

The problem with your equation is that Bess is worth more than a draft pick. This isn't real estate where you buy and sell property to make a profit. If that were the case then the Colts would be trading Peyton Manning for 4 first round picks. Thats a huge profit for them!

Peyton Manning IS the Colts. It's not a question of value. Bess, as great of a player as he's been for us, if we can make a 2nd rounder in return for him? You make that trade all day. QB is the most important position on the field. Possession WR is expendable.

You have to learn how to not be emotionally involved. It's why fans aren't GMs

"godolphins wrote:

Yeah let's trade away one of the best slot WR in the Nfl and further establish ourself as a joke of an organization

*facepalm*

He was an UDFA. You can find those guys. I'm not suggesting he doesn't have value.....And I'm as attached to him as I am any Dolphin. I love his story, and, his work ethic...etc, etc...But a 2nd rounder for him? You make that trade.

"Garryowen wrote:

Peyton Manning IS the Colts. It's not a question of value. Bess, as great of a player as he's been for us, if we can make a 2nd rounder in return for him? You make that trade all day. QB is the most important position on the field. Possession WR is expendable.

You have to learn how to not be emotionally involved. It's why fans aren't GMs

It has nothing to do with emotional involvement. Your whole premise is skewed, IMO. You don't trade a smart, heady player who can keep the chains moving for a pick that may not even pan out. Did trading Wes Welker turn out to be the right move because we got great return for a free agent? No, because Welker accrued value, and what we received in return didn't. Likewise Bess has accrued value, is considered one of the 2 or 3 best slot guys in the league, and now you want to gamble it away. It's ok to do it if you're the Patriots and you can't play both Tom Brady and Matt Cassel. But I think you're underestimating the value Bess brings to this team, and overestimating that you can just find a UDFA to plug back in. If that's the case, there would be a lot more like him around the league.

Trade Bess? Let's not be silly now.

"PhinGeneral wrote:

It has nothing to do with emotional involvement. Your whole premise is skewed, IMO. You don't trade a smart, heady player who can keep the chains moving for a pick that may not even pan out. Did trading Wes Welker turn out to be the right move because we got great return for a free agent? No, because Welker accrued value, and what we received in return didn't. Likewise Bess has accrued value, is considered one of the 2 or 3 best slot guys in the league, and now you want to gamble it away. It's ok to do it if you're the Patriots and you can't play both Tom Brady and Matt Cassel. But I think you're underestimating the value Bess brings to this team, and overestimating that you can just find a UDFA to plug back in. If that's the case, there would be a lot more like him around the league.

A 2nd rounder can bring more upside to the table than Bess...Now, with THIS organization..You're right. If I was THIS organization, I keep Bess. You keep the nut you found blindly over a nut that you reach to pick off the tree like Pat White...Who doesn't even play football now.

I find it depressing that our offense has been SO bad for SO long we think the only way to score is long bombs. Most teams have guys that can get the ball in their hands and score from anywhere. They use short slants or get guys going across the middle of the field. We (and not just Henning, this has been going on for YEARS) only bring guys back towards the line of scrimmage or towards the sidelines - never up the field.

The long bomb plays are great - but we need guys that can make one or two moves and break a play open. Hartline is not that guy.

"PhiNomina wrote:

I find it depressing that our offense has been SO bad for SO long we think the only way to score is long bombs. Most teams have guys that can get the ball in their hands and score from anywhere. They use short slants or get guys going across the middle of the field. We (and not just Henning, this has been going on for YEARS) only bring guys back towards the line of scrimmage or towards the sidelines - never up the field.

The long bomb plays are great - but we need guys that can make one or two moves and break a play open. Hartline is not that guy.

We're unable to find a QB that can run the offense, and, unable to find an offense that makes any sense (PA on third and long isn't fooling anyone)

"padre31 wrote:

Problem is Ozzy, Henne has not shown to be accurate down the field, it really is a problem as with his arm he should be able to hit deep stuff, but instead he is more or less a 15 yd and in passer who is not terribly accurate or anticipates very well.

Basically he is a Qb who is mismatched between physical tools and skillset, big arm who does not throw deep well, decent accuracy but who does not anticipate well enough to throw receivers open.

Well Padre, I'm not a big fan of Henne, as you should already know. I don't think he's terrible. I think he is good but not VERY good. At worst he makes a damned good backup.

But to his defense, and yes, he has not hit the long ball too well, but they have not MADE him throw it enough iimo. That's how you get better or not. Do the things needed to improve during a game. This would have been a good year to do so seeing that they missed the playoffs but who woulda known from day one.

I'm dying to see them bring in a Qb but with the way things look, it won't be too easy. Not to easy to bring in one that is clearly going to give Henne a run for the starters job right away.

So Oz, that is the thing, the deep patterns are run Henne rarely throws them and takes the underneath stuff instead.

Hartline was scorching the Bengals secondary, and Henne did not come close to hitting him, ditto the Browns until he broke his hand.

That and imo Henne does not enjoy airing the ball out down the field, that could be coaching with the "Thou shalt not turn the ball over" but he is so reluctant to throw them to me I cannot believe it is all on the coaching.

For Henne, anything in the middle of the field past 25 yds is just not going to happen, he will throw it up near the sidelines and outside of the hash marks, but deep turn in routes he just doesn't throw, the type of route that Desean Jackson thrives on is exactly the route he won't throw.

"Garryowen wrote:

He was an UDFA. You can find those guys. I'm not suggesting he doesn't have value.....And I'm as attached to him as I am any Dolphin. I love his story, and, his work ethic...etc, etc...But a 2nd rounder for him? You make that trade.

It doesn't matter what he "was". It matters what he "is" now..... and that's an integral part of this team. Not to mention, if we're going to be spreading things out a bit more, we'll need MORE receivers, not LESS.

Considering Hartline hasn't proven to be reliable yet, I don't see how you'd want us going into a season with only Marshall, Hartline, Moore, Wallace, and possibly a rookie who may take a year or two to develop. That's making things HARDER for the offense, not easier.

"Garryowen wrote:

A 2nd rounder can bring more upside to the table than Bess...Now, with THIS organization..You're right. If I was THIS organization, I keep Bess. You keep the nut you found blindly over a nut that you reach to pick off the tree like Pat White...Who doesn't even play football now.

No offense, but do you play the weekly lottery with optimism that you might win it some day? lol.

"more upside to the table than Bess"? He's the main reason we're the best team in the NFL at converting 3rd downs when it's not 10+ yards to go. That's an important aspect of the game-- <conversions>. If you think you'll find someone with more "upside" at converting 3rd downs, then you're sorely mistaken.

Bess & Marshall are 2 solid guys to build a corps around.

"PhiNomina wrote:

I find it depressing that our offense has been SO bad for SO long we think the only way to score is long bombs. Most teams have guys that can get the ball in their hands and score from anywhere. They use short slants or get guys going across the middle of the field. We (and not just Henning, this has been going on for YEARS) only bring guys back towards the line of scrimmage or towards the sidelines - never up the field.

The long bomb plays are great - but we need guys that can make one or two moves and break a play open. Hartline is not that guy.

That's why I want Jernigan, Titus Young, or Greg Little (or all 3 of them if I could).

"Garryowen wrote:

A 2nd rounder can bring more upside to the table than Bess...Now, with THIS organization..You're right. If I was THIS organization, I keep Bess. You keep the nut you found blindly over a nut that you reach to pick off the tree like Pat White...Who doesn't even play football now.

Doesn't matter what organization it is. Unless you have someone in the wings that can fill his shoes, you don't trade a player that's one of the best at his position to take a chance that a player you draft will be better. The odds just aren't in your favor.

And it doesn't matter if it's a nut you found blindly. In fact, it's fairly irrelevant what the draft status was. There's no one at NFL headquarters that's going to give you a gold star and a pat on the head because you turned an UDFA into a 2nd round pick. You're trading a player based on what his value is now, not when he was acquired. Now if someone wanted to give us a 2nd round pick for Jeron Mastrud, then you'd happily accept and run to the bank with it, because Mastrud's current value in no way warrants anything near a 2nd round pick. But trading Bess would just open another hole you may not fill as well.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

No offense, but do you play the weekly lottery with optimism that you might win it some day? lol.

"more upside to the table than Bess"? He's the main reason we're the best team in the NFL at converting 3rd downs when it's not 10+ yards to go. That's an important aspect of the game-- <conversions>. If you think you'll find someone with more "upside" at converting 3rd downs, then you're sorely mistaken.

Bess & Marshall are 2 solid guys to build a corps around.

Do you buy stock high and sell it low?

Look, I love Bess, and, he has a great ammount of value, but just as we found Welker, and, we found Bess, we can find
another guy like them.

A 2nd rounder can yield great return, and, you make the trade all day if someone offers a 2nd..But, no GM would do that, because
they already know what I'm saying is true.

"GISH wrote:

How can this thought even be considered as rational? Trade one of our best playmakers for a draft pick? We get draft picks for free every year. Its part of being an NFL franchise. Draft picks are not sure things, especially wide receivers. I don't see how any Dolphins fan can be in favor of this idea after how long it took to replace Chambers, Welker, and McMichael.

Hell, we still haven't replaced McMichael.

"padre31 wrote:

Problem is Ozzy, Henne has not shown to be accurate down the field, it really is a problem as with his arm he should be able to hit deep stuff, but instead he is more or less a 15 yd and in passer who is not terribly accurate or anticipates very well.

Basically he is a Qb who is mismatched between physical tools and skillset, big arm who does not throw deep well, decent accuracy but who does not anticipate well enough to throw receivers open.

If you go back and look at his college game tape he was accurate on the deep passes. I think a lot of what you're talking about stems from the fact that he's not comfortable. It seems to me that they're trying to turn Henne into another Pennington. Or at least have been. Henne has a completely different skill set than Pennington. You wouldn't try to make Matt Ryan into Mike Vick would you? The offensive gameplan took away a lot of things that Henne does well and forced him into the 15 and in box. That coupled with the ingrained fear of turning the ball over that Sparano has put into him and you begin to understand why he lacks confidence. If you knew how to do your job, but your boss told you that you had to do a completely different way from what you know how to do it and that failure is not an option and will be reprimanded severely do you think you would feel extremely confident?

"padre31 wrote:

So Oz, that is the thing, the deep patterns are run Henne rarely throws them and takes the underneath stuff instead.

Hartline was scorching the Bengals secondary, and Henne did not come close to hitting him, ditto the Browns until he broke his hand.

That and imo Henne does not enjoy airing the ball out down the field, that could be coaching with the "Thou shalt not turn the ball over" but he is so reluctant to throw them to me I cannot believe it is all on the coaching.

For Henne, anything in the middle of the field past 25 yds is just not going to happen, he will throw it up near the sidelines and outside of the hash marks, but deep turn in routes he just doesn't throw, the type of route that Desean Jackson thrives on is exactly the route he won't throw.

Well, with the "get rid of the ball in 3 seconds" timer that has been installed in Henne's head, he rarely has time to wait for the receiver to open up deep. That's what perplexes me about Tony's study of chunk plays. Basically in order to get chunk plays you need to be able to extend the play, but we have been so adamant about not extending the play that Henning actually used a buzzer to keep Henne from holding the ball for more than 3 seconds. You can't have it both ways. And if that doesn't show you just how piss poorly managed the development of Chad Henne has been I don't know what will.

"Trowa wrote:

Well, with the "get rid of the ball in 3 seconds" timer that has been installed in Henne's head, he rarely has time to wait for the receiver to open up deep. That's what perplexes me about Tony's study of chunk plays. Basically in order to get chunk plays you need to be able to extend the play, but we have been so adamant about not extending the play that Henning actually used a buzzer to keep Henne from holding the ball for more than 3 seconds. You can't have it both ways. And if that doesn't show you just how piss poorly managed the development of Chad Henne has been I don't know what will.

No, it should have taught him better anticipation of a Wr breaking open, notice Penny had no problem with the buzzer and he still was a Qb who took shots down the field even with his poor arm strength, one can say that it did not work however as a coaching method it is as valid as any other method.

That said, you did notice that Sparano mentioned the path to chunk yardage was a Qb buying time with his legs in today's nfl?

To me, that should inform as to Henne's fate at Qb, not saying it is a done deal, am saying he does not fit that mold.

"padre31 wrote:

So Oz, that is the thing, the deep patterns are run Henne rarely throws them and takes the underneath stuff instead.

Hartline was scorching the Bengals secondary, and Henne did not come close to hitting him, ditto the Browns until he broke his hand.

That and imo Henne does not enjoy airing the ball out down the field, that could be coaching with the "Thou shalt not turn the ball over" but he is so reluctant to throw them to me I cannot believe it is all on the coaching.

For Henne, anything in the middle of the field past 25 yds is just not going to happen, he will throw it up near the sidelines and outside of the hash marks, but deep turn in routes he just doesn't throw, the type of route that Desean Jackson thrives on is exactly the route he won't throw.

I struggle to believe it is just a Henne thing. Pennington didn't do it, either. We only seem to use the TE in the middle of the field. We definitely send guys deep (Ginn and Hartline normally get a look or two per game) but never hit those guys in stride up the middle of the field.

It just seems to me we call plays designed to get X amount of yards. There isn't opportunity for guys running up the field or getting them the ball short and letting them make a play. Everything was coming back to the LOS or towards the out of bounds lines. And when we do take shots, they are always the huge long bombs that go 40 yards down the field.

"Garryowen wrote:

Peyton Manning IS the Colts. It's not a question of value. Bess, as great of a player as he's been for us, if we can make a 2nd rounder in return for him? You make that trade all day. QB is the most important position on the field. Possession WR is expendable.

You have to learn how to not be emotionally involved. It's why fans aren't GMs

Please tell me how we should use that 2nd round pick we get for Bess. Pat White? Philip Merling? Chad Henne? John Beck? Samson Satele? I could go on. 2nd round picks are not a sure thing. Davone Bess is.

And no we werent forced to trade Welker to the Pats. We could have matched the offer and declined to take their 2nd and 7th.

"GISH wrote:

Please tell me how we should use that 2nd round pick we get for Bess. Pat White? Philip Merling? Chad Henne? John Beck? Samson Satele? I could go on. 2nd round picks are not a sure thing. Davone Bess is.

And no we werent forced to trade Welker to the Pats. We could have matched the offer and declined to take their 2nd and 7th.

As I said; THIS organization? You keep Bess, because you are totally incapable of finding talent in the 2nd round.

a 2nd round pick has value for good organizations...OUR organization? We keep Bess. You're right there.

"GISH wrote:

Please tell me how we should use that 2nd round pick we get for Bess. Pat White? Philip Merling? Chad Henne? John Beck? Samson Satele? I could go on. 2nd round picks are not a sure thing. Davone Bess is.

And no we werent forced to trade Welker to the Pats. We could have matched the offer and declined to take their 2nd and 7th.

We COULD have matched it but if I remember correctly the contract was worded something like if Welker played more than 3 games in Dolphins Stadium in a given year that his salary would increased by like $5 million or something crazy like that. So yes, we COULD have matched it but there was no way we would. That's why it's caled a poison pill. We were honestly lucky we got the 7th rounder as all we were entitled to was the 2nd rounder per the rules of the RFA setup.

"GISH wrote:

How can this thought even be considered as rational? Trade one of our best playmakers for a draft pick? We get draft picks for free every year. Its part of being an NFL franchise. Draft picks are not sure things, especially wide receivers. I don't see how any Dolphins fan can be in favor of this idea after how long it took to replace Chambers, Welker, and McMichael.

I couldn't wait to replace McMichael. This team is still trying to find a replacement since Ferrel Edmunds. hehe.....

"Garryowen wrote:

Do you buy stock high and sell it low?

Look, I love Bess, and, he has a great ammount of value, but just as we found Welker, and, we found Bess, we can find
another guy like them.

A 2nd rounder can yield great return, and, you make the trade all day if someone offers a 2nd..But, no GM would do that, because
they already know what I'm saying is true.

This is football, not the stock market.... and the last time I checked, Bess isn't near the end of his career so your point has no validation, no offense.