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Saw this posted at another Forum......(Bess content)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Phintastic, Feb 5, 2011.

  1. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    Doesn't matter what organization it is. Unless you have someone in the wings that can fill his shoes, you don't trade a player that's one of the best at his position to take a chance that a player you draft will be better. The odds just aren't in your favor.

    And it doesn't matter if it's a nut you found blindly. In fact, it's fairly irrelevant what the draft status was. There's no one at NFL headquarters that's going to give you a gold star and a pat on the head because you turned an UDFA into a 2nd round pick. You're trading a player based on what his value is now, not when he was acquired. Now if someone wanted to give us a 2nd round pick for Jeron Mastrud, then you'd happily accept and run to the bank with it, because Mastrud's current value in no way warrants anything near a 2nd round pick. But trading Bess would just open another hole you may not fill as well.
     
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  2. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Do you buy stock high and sell it low?

    Look, I love Bess, and, he has a great ammount of value, but just as we found Welker, and, we found Bess, we can find
    another guy like them.

    A 2nd rounder can yield great return, and, you make the trade all day if someone offers a 2nd..But, no GM would do that, because
    they already know what I'm saying is true.
     
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  3. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Hell, we still haven't replaced McMichael.
     
  4. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    If you go back and look at his college game tape he was accurate on the deep passes. I think a lot of what you're talking about stems from the fact that he's not comfortable. It seems to me that they're trying to turn Henne into another Pennington. Or at least have been. Henne has a completely different skill set than Pennington. You wouldn't try to make Matt Ryan into Mike Vick would you? The offensive gameplan took away a lot of things that Henne does well and forced him into the 15 and in box. That coupled with the ingrained fear of turning the ball over that Sparano has put into him and you begin to understand why he lacks confidence. If you knew how to do your job, but your boss told you that you had to do a completely different way from what you know how to do it and that failure is not an option and will be reprimanded severely do you think you would feel extremely confident?
     
  5. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Well, with the "get rid of the ball in 3 seconds" timer that has been installed in Henne's head, he rarely has time to wait for the receiver to open up deep. That's what perplexes me about Tony's study of chunk plays. Basically in order to get chunk plays you need to be able to extend the play, but we have been so adamant about not extending the play that Henning actually used a buzzer to keep Henne from holding the ball for more than 3 seconds. You can't have it both ways. And if that doesn't show you just how piss poorly managed the development of Chad Henne has been I don't know what will.
     
  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    No, it should have taught him better anticipation of a Wr breaking open, notice Penny had no problem with the buzzer and he still was a Qb who took shots down the field even with his poor arm strength, one can say that it did not work however as a coaching method it is as valid as any other method.

    That said, you did notice that Sparano mentioned the path to chunk yardage was a Qb buying time with his legs in today's nfl?

    To me, that should inform as to Henne's fate at Qb, not saying it is a done deal, am saying he does not fit that mold.
     
  7. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck Club Member

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    I struggle to believe it is just a Henne thing. Pennington didn't do it, either. We only seem to use the TE in the middle of the field. We definitely send guys deep (Ginn and Hartline normally get a look or two per game) but never hit those guys in stride up the middle of the field.

    It just seems to me we call plays designed to get X amount of yards. There isn't opportunity for guys running up the field or getting them the ball short and letting them make a play. Everything was coming back to the LOS or towards the out of bounds lines. And when we do take shots, they are always the huge long bombs that go 40 yards down the field.
     
  8. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    Please tell me how we should use that 2nd round pick we get for Bess. Pat White? Philip Merling? Chad Henne? John Beck? Samson Satele? I could go on. 2nd round picks are not a sure thing. Davone Bess is.

    And no we werent forced to trade Welker to the Pats. We could have matched the offer and declined to take their 2nd and 7th.
     
  9. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    As I said; THIS organization? You keep Bess, because you are totally incapable of finding talent in the 2nd round.

    a 2nd round pick has value for good organizations...OUR organization? We keep Bess. You're right there.
     
  10. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    We COULD have matched it but if I remember correctly the contract was worded something like if Welker played more than 3 games in Dolphins Stadium in a given year that his salary would increased by like $5 million or something crazy like that. So yes, we COULD have matched it but there was no way we would. That's why it's caled a poison pill. We were honestly lucky we got the 7th rounder as all we were entitled to was the 2nd rounder per the rules of the RFA setup.
     
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  11. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    I couldn't wait to replace McMichael. This team is still trying to find a replacement since Ferrel Edmunds. hehe.....
     
  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    This is football, not the stock market.... and the last time I checked, Bess isn't near the end of his career so your point has no validation, no offense.
     
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  13. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Charlie Batch going for his 3rd Superbowl ring... :shifty:
     
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  14. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Value is value. You can find slot recievers regularly. We've managed to do it.

    If you turn over a UDFA for a 2nd ... You win. Bottom line.
     
  15. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    All with having nearly nothing to do with it.
     
  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Sorry, but you don't get it. Bess is an ELITE 3rd down receiver, and converting 3rd downs is a hugely important part of the game. You can't "regularly" find receivers who do that..... nor can you regularly find receivers who have a gifted understanding of the position along with tremendous hands and the ability to gain quick separation. It seems as though you're taking this for granted.

    If we were offered a 2nd rounder for Bess, then that would only back up my point for just how valuable he really is.

    Bess is the kind of guy whom every team wishes they had on their roster..... but few teams can find.
     
  17. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    You win if you get a better player than the one you parted with.

    I think that when you have a good player you keep him unless you're stocked at his position and even then it's not an easy call to just up and trade to get value.
     
  18. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Yep, Bess is definitely top of the slot Wr class. He will not be so easy to replace.
     
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  19. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Name me one GM that would give up a 2nd for Bess. You can't because none would. That tells you the comparitive value.
     
  20. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box


    What did NE give up for Welker again?

    Bess' numbers are much better than his when comparing their first two seasons!

    Both UDFA's right?

    Now what you got?
     
  21. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    When they do it for Bess, call me. Until then you've got nothing.
     
  22. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Sorry but you're the one holding nothing at this time. You asked a simple question then answered it like it was, dead on, FACT!

    I proved to you that it could and used a player who's stats were not as good as a Wr. Dolphins fans were up in arms over the Welker trade. Some still are. FACT!

    Again! I would not trade a damned good player for a 2nd round pick when the position he plays has only two worthy players on it's roster..
     
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  23. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Well it is dead on fact. You can't name me one GM that's going to give up a 2nd for Bess.
     
  24. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    You cannot name one who wouldn't.

    I named one GM who gave up a 2nd for Welker, who at the time, was a lesser player, on paper...
     
  25. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Well, that would be roughly every single one of them right now, until evidence shows otherwise.

    ETA; Ireland. Ok. You're right. He'd give up a second..Hell, probabaly a first for Bess. I stand corrected.
     
  26. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Come on man, this is some pretty weak stuff. You cannot sit there and act like you know what every GM in the NFL would do. Until otherwise is a cop out too...
     
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  27. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    When I see a GM give up a second for Bess, I'm on board. Until then, I'm not. I'd make the trade if it were offered...You wouldn't, and, I respect that.
     
  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    And who would you take with this "hypothetical" late 2nd rounder? List your top 3 here.
     
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  29. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    The better question is why are we trading Bess again? Hes locked up for two more years at a relatively affordable price tag, he has the highest percentage of catches for first downs in the entire league over the last two years, has great hands, and hes still improving. Not only would I not trade him, Id ask for a first + from anyone who did ask about him.
     
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  30. PhinsPhan23

    PhinsPhan23 New Member

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    While I do think his value is a 2nd or 3rd, I would not trade him for that. You will find fans of other teams who think we are crazy to assume his value is that high, but it is. He's playing for peanuts, is young, and is way too consistent to let go for a 2nd or 3rd where we draft a speedster project and just have to wait 2 or 3 years for them to develop. I'm fine drafting a project WR who is speedy that can excel in the return game as well, but not at the expense of Bess. Just draft a guy in the 3rd that you know can handle the Return duties and see if he develops into a good WR.
     
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  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would of given a 2nd myself if I was a GM..I know that because of how pissed off I was when I found out about the trade...Turns out that some of us who debated with others that Wes was worth it, and, whether he is a great player on his own, {not just system or QB}, were right...he turned out to be what some of us projected...A great player..and great players are worth more than 2nd round picks.
     
  32. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
     
  33. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Well, I don't think we're trading Bess. I'd still do a 2nd for Bess any day. C'mon...We gave up two 2nds for B Marsh and you'd ask a 1st for Bess? Please man. Nobody's going to give a 2nd for Bess, not to mention a 1st. ... Which is fine with me, because I like the guy, and, I feel he's a great part of this team.
     
  34. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Right but it's not like the Dolphins had much choice after they chose to tender him...

    He was going to be a Patriot no matter what after that.
     
  35. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Same as Roethlisberger :shifty:
     
  36. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I like Bess a lot, but I'd trade him for any pick in the Top 45 in a heart beat, not that anyone would offer that for Bess. I understand he's a fan favorite, and there's an emotional attachment to him. But the bottom line is he's a limited player, with zero big play potential, and for his career he has more fumbles (10) than TDs (8).
     
  37. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    Bottom line? Antonio Gates had his best season in his second year. The Chargers trading him for a second after that wouldn't be considered a win.
     

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