Salguero: Dolphins unlikely to fire Ireland

They aren't comparable. There is nothing similar between Ireland and Millen. Millen was one of the worst ever. Ireland has been average.

 

If Pro Bowls meant anything, this would be an important piece of information.

 

Well, I don't necessarily agree with the "one more season" part but you're right. A regime can't be judged on one draft together. The outside appearance is, that despite the record this year, Irish has adapted to what Philbin looks for in his players fairly well. It also could be deducted that Philbin and his staff are better at developing players, as we've seen a few guys that looked like being on the outs that have produced this year. I also still believe that Philbin is operating with a severe handicap in play-making ability...that doesn't mean that we don't have a solid base of players, we do, but there are certainly holes at TE, WR, S and RB where you'd expect to have some play-makers...

But the writing is still on the wall here. Ross made that abundantly clear when he tossed out Sparano and kept Ireland here last year. Ross either has a man-crush on Irish or he simply, as the article says, has more faith in continuity than previous owners here and owners elsewhere... I can't say that I think he's wrong either. If you look at the more successful organizations, continuity is a key component to winning...

 

They don't mean everything but they certainly do mean something. This is a league driven by play makers.

 

I'm not really sure what you're defending but its obvious you're dead set on making a meaningless point about nothing. Good luck.

 

Chicken-or-egg argument. What comes first, continuity or winning?

This is an honest question that I don't know the answer to so please feel free to enlighten me. Can anyone think of any successful General Manager that went through four straight losing seasons and brought his team out the other side to where he's considered a successful General Manager? Serious question.

For the first part of the question, how about we just start naming General Managers we view to have had successful careers as General Managers, and then we can explore their career histories.

 

I'm not defending anything. I'm trying to show you how stupid it is to compare Millen and Ireland.

 

I think you may have just figured it all out.

 

I credit you with thinking of Mickey, but unfortunately he just doesn't fit very well. Here are the Saints' records every year since Mickey took over as GM:

2002: 9-7
2003: 8-8
2004: 8-8
2005: 3-13
2006: 10-6
2007: 7-9
2008: 8-8
2009: 13-3
2010: 11-5
2011: 13-3
2012: 5-7

Now I will grant you that having a 0.476 record after his first five years as GM makes him look similar to Ireland's current 0.467 record. But qualitatively I think there are key differences. I mean right away you look at the question I asked and no, Mickey Loomis doesn't qualify. In those first five years the Saints only had ONE losing season. Miami has had FOUR. Additionally, the Saints actually won a playoff game. That's still an elusive accomplishment for Ireland's team. The very worst stretch of four years in Loomis' time as GM there were 2005 to 2008. But even then they only had two losing seasons. Again, Miami has had four consecutive ones.

 

Mickey Loomis's losing season also came under extreme circumstances following Hurricane Katrina.

 

I can't believe you wrote this with intellectual honesty. You've seriously got to know better.

Almost half of your list of players that are supposedly a credit to Dave Wannstedt's drafting are back-ups. Deon Dyer was a back-up fullback. Arturo Freeman was a back-up safety who ended up starting a single season. Travis Minor was a back-up. Not a change of pace, not comparable to Daniel Thomas at all. Donald Lee was a back-up and started and was terrible in Green Bay. Jamar Fletcher was a failed Nickel corner. Why not just continue listing names? Seth McKinney! He played games! You're missing people who were actually decent players, as well.

Dave Wannstedt isn't even remotely close to as successful as Jeff Ireland in the draft or free agency, and your argument is borderline insulting.

 

To be fair, saying Wannstedt had twice the Pro Bowlers is like saying every current Dolphin will retire after the season and thus have no shot at ever making one. Wannstedt had no Pro Bowlers from 2000-03. Plus, he didn't bring in a couple CFL studs at their respective positions either.

Bell didn't become a Pro Bowler until 2009.
Chambers not until 2005.
McMichael was only an alternate (2004).

In proper context, if we revisit the Pro Bowlers come the end of the year verse Wanny's guys' first 5 years, it'll look like:
Wannstedt- 0
Ireland--- Long, Pouncey, Wake, Jones (should be), Thigpen (should be).. w/ the potential down the line of a few others (QB being a big one)

Essentially you're endorsing the notion of giving our young team time to develop before passing judgement, especially now that it finally has what appears to be a better coaching staff, and I would agree with that notion considering the entire roster has been flipped sans a punter & defensive tackle.

 

When did I say that????????????? When did anyone say Ireland shouldn't be fired? You are just creating strawmen to take your anger out on.

My point here is that if Jeff Ireland is replaced, the expectations should be that his replacement will perform to an average level. IMO, this debate is essentially meaningless. The odds of finding the next great GM are the same as the current one getting lucky, getting better, or having variance work to his advantage. Conversely, you are just as likely to hire a worse GM as you are to have the current GM perform worse. In the end, replacing Jeff Ireland doesn't change the outlook of this organization.

 

And you could argue that the Saints didn't achieve those accomplishments through any type of linear performance from Loomis. Rather, they were lucky enough to have Drew Brees fully recover from an injury that many thought he wouldn't recover from.

 

That's a good point.

 

Yet, before Brees was signed the Saints under Loomis didn't have any losing seasons until Katrina destroyed their home and they were forced to set up temporarily in San Antonio.

 

And they only had one winning season. In his first four seasons in NO, they had 33 Wins. In Ireland's first four seasons the Dolphins have 31 wins.

So essentially the comparison between a great NFL GM, and an embarrassing NFL GM is 0.5 wins per season.

 

Well, Jeff Ireland has that stat. He showed it to Ross. It says it only takes 79 years, give or take 4 years for coaching changes. It's on a big chart in Jeff's office. Right next to the 4 inch long ruler that Jeff tells his wife is 12 inches.

 

Actually... Millen could help us right now. The ONE thing Matt Millen was good at was acquiring big, tall, fast receivers.

 

There are a lot of Pro Bowlers you think would make our roster worse, then, if we got them?

 

Agree on continuity. The bolded, though, is the argument I think Ross is buying from Jeff ireland and why Jeff has at least one more season, regardless of our finish.

 

No, the one thing he was good at was finding busts. Calvin Johnson aside, he drafted two busts and an OK receiver.

 

Then again, Loomis didn't have any 11-5 division-winning seasons either.

The difference between 7-9 and 8-8 is negligible. Trying to spin it as if a GM whose teams went 8-8 a few years is consequently much better than one whose team went 7-9 is just silly.

There have been some very well regarded GMs whose teams were not very successful for their first 4-5 years:

George Young

6-10
4-12
9-7
4-5
3-12

Tex Schramm

0-11
4-9
5-8
4-10
5-8-1

Bobby Beathard (Wash)

8-8
10-6
6-10
8-8
8-1

 

Well, I just looked at over 15 GMs and couldn't find a foure year losing stretch followed by a winning team. I couldn't even find a four year losing stretch for most of them.

ANd I even went digging back to old GMs. Checked if historical ones had that happen. Searched Hall of Fame to see if any olden-days GMs started rocky, then became great (thought maybe Lambeau) but nope... still no four years of losing followed by winning.

In fact, a four year losing stretch by any GM seems to be a pretty sure mark that they aren't a good GM. I hate to say it.

That said, I'm sure SOMEWHERE out there is a GM who lost for four yrs then turned it around. I just couldn't find them.

 

I posted 3 in the post above yours that it took me about 7 minutes to find.

 

Good work. Couldn't find those.

And, by the way, when Robert Kraft bough the Patriots, his friends the Tishes and Maras actually asked George Young to train Robert on how to run a franchise. Seems to have worked out okay for the Pats.

Wikipedia

 

Curious... what source did you use to figure it out?

 

George Young and Tex Schramm were good finds. Bobby Beathard fits even worse than Mickey Loomis.

 

Memory and Pro Football Reference, with Wikipedia to confirm the dates of tenure.

 

Why does Beathard fit badly. The Skins were .500 over his first 4 years with one winning season.

Jim Finks is another one, twice. His first 5 teams in Minnesota were mediocre or worse before becoming a great team (albeit without actually winning a SB). Same in Chicago, where they actually became a great team a few years after Finks left, but with mostly players Finks acquired (Payton, McMahon, Hampton, Singletary, etc.), although they also had some good players acquired after Finks left.

 

Your kid is cute.

 

That's actually me.

 

Hibernia delenda est.

 

I think sadly its going to require Miami to have a more serious fan attendance at games which is probably already bad . we really need to tank the season and get better draft picks or we will continue to be in cellar of the afc east and 8-8 7-9 is the worst hing that can happen . How many people in their right minds want to finish 7-9 every year .

firing Ireland is a necessity


in case some of you cool cats are really into this letting other teams get ahead of us and let them get the superstar while we continue to have 3rd team like talent how can you be happy with the state of this franchize ? it should not take a decade to rebuild a team , How long did it take san Fran , Denver , Baltimore and the colts to rebuild ?

Ireland is the worst gm in the nfl and it shows when we cant even compete with the Rams and Denver for a player and coach. and this is why I'M angry its not just the losig its the crappy attitude of the front office and now we have fans that seem to be enjoying going 7-9 .

 

Was Adewale Ogunleye also a Dave Wannstedt find?

 

Yes. His daughter went to Indiana and that's where he first saw him. So credit Wanny's daughter, I guess.

 

I believe he hit just as good if not better on Free Agents as well.

 

I think this is possibly the most likely scenario of what has transpired.

It's still very depressing. I am over 50 and have grand children. Last time we won the Super Bowl I was 12 and in Junior High school. I was hoping to see them win one more Lombardi before I bit the dust....but I am losing hope.

And I won't switch teams, I just don't operate like that. I'm still a Marlins fan, despite having many more reasons to abandon them than the Dolphins. I live and die with my Fins but sometimes I get so jealous of what I see elsewhere in the NFL.

But when we do win, it will be so damn sweet.....so damn sweet. I will probably cry like a baby when it does happen and I don't care what others think about this old man crying. It will feel like the weight of an elephant lifted from my shoulders.