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Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by bbqpitlover, Oct 16, 2019.

Ryan Tannehill is...

  1. A terrible QB

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. A below average QB

    2 vote(s)
    3.8%
  3. An average QB

    6 vote(s)
    11.5%
  4. An above average QB

    26 vote(s)
    50.0%
  5. An elite QB

    14 vote(s)
    26.9%
  6. The GOAT.

    4 vote(s)
    7.7%
  1. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I agree, but it's pretty obvious IMO what's going on here. Belichick's ego is getting in the way. He WANTS to prove that it was mostly him and not Brady that resulted in those 6 SB's. So to some degree the problem is he wants to show he can do it with Cam, a QB that's not well suited for the type of offense Belichick runs.

    Regardless, whatever outside observers think, Cam is the guy Belichick thought was the right choice.
     
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  2. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Right. Now he has a new teacher who teaches things in a different way and it works for him. That's the only point that matters. The rest is just semantics.
     
  3. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Well of course Belichick wants to do it his way...just like Brady is wanting to do it HIS way in Tampa Bay. Think about it...look at what Brady has with him in Tampa...Gronkowski and Brown now.

    Brady got what he wanted/needed...Belichick, although may have gotten Newton...he wasn't what he needed.
     
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  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    No that's not accurate. I've argued pretty consistently that the Patriots offense is actually complex, and you need receivers that run precise routes and make the same decisions on where the route is going as the QB.

    But that offense isn't going to work with Cam, not known for being smart, and with a receivers who don't excel at route precision.

    You can't pull things I said, when Brady/Cassel/whoever were throwing to Edelman/Amendola/White/Gronk, and apply it to this current offense.
     
  5. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I think that's revisionist history. For years you've been arguing it's NOT the QB it's the system. For example:
    https://www.thephins.com/threads/divisive-on-tannehill.91496/#post-2954680
    That's just one quote out of tons you've made making the same claim: it's NOT the QB. That you could put backups in there and essentially get the same result. And this year it's not just Cam Newton, but also Stidham and Hoyer who played terrible. Point is, it's NOT just the system, it's ALSO the QB.
     
  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the big point there is consistency- it's easy to make something that works, then keep doing it over and over with new wrinkles added in over time (the Patriots Way). It's a lot harder to create something from scratch, then install brand new pieces every few years while also reinventing the process (The Dolphins Way). Eventually, you have to just stick with something and fine-tune it.

    Belichek lost Brady and tons of other pieces this season, so they've had to adjust on the fly like 31 other teams are doing.
     
  7. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    It's worth noting though that most of the key pieces they lost were on defense, not offense, except for Brady. Brady didn't have a good surrounding cast on offense last year either. Except for 6 games by Gordon, who didn't really do much (only 1 TD overall and 48 yards per game), the surrounding cast on offense was similarly bad last year.

    They've gone from 7th best to 29th on offense, with the main difference being Brady. It's a good "natural experiment" to see the effect of the QB, even if Brady was only average last year (much better than near worst for Cam and co.).
     
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  8. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh definitely, I realized all of that as well and was looking forward to seeing how Belichek/Brady did without one-another. Honestly, I expected the exact opposite results than we're seeing today...but the Pats did lose a lot of defensive firepower as well.
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, your pulling quotes from when they had precision route runners, and a HoF tight end. You had Cassel, Garop, ands other QBs all looking legit playing in that system, with those players. Yes, the NE system requires smart receivers who run crisp precise routes with an elaborate route tree, often requiring multiple decisions to be made on each route, and a smart QB who is also reading the defenders and making the same decision is the receivers. Plus there's the possibility of them using another mic in the helmet. Just saying.

    You're acting like the only thing different for this offense is the QB. It's not.
     
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    This may be a fair point.
     
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  11. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I'm not surprised because their roster really isnt very good and hasnt been for a few years. They need to rebuild. Even their defense has benefited from their offense in the past.
     
  12. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What they also lost, and which I alluded to earlier in the thread, was the key element of their dynasty in my opinion -- a team leader who served as an extension among the players of the head coach's philosophy and approach. Without that there is no team culture. Note that now the Patriots don't appear to have anywhere near the resiliency and drive they had for almost 20 years, what made them truly unique in the NFL. That Patriot "signature" is now gone.
     
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  13. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  14. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  15. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent Well-Known Member

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    Thirty-seven touchdowns, seven interceptions, 4,188 yards, five rushing touchdowns, a completion percentage of 69.1 percent, a passer rating of 116.5 and a 12-4 record as a starter.





    That’s the numbers racked up by Titans quarterback Ryan Tannehill over his first 16 regular season starts as quarterback in Tennessee.

    Since taking over for Marcus Mariota midway through last season, Tannehill has performed like one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. If you used Tannehill’s last 16 starts as a full season comparison to the entire league in 2019, Tannehill would have ranked sixth in passing yards, fourth in completion percentage, first in touchdowns and first in passer rating.

    It’s been a growing year and a half from being traded here as a backup, starting the season off as a backup, getting opportunity, kind of jumping into that role, trying not to look back in and just growing and learning,” Tannehill said Wednesday, via Teresa Walker of the Associated Press.





    ******************Only Russell Wilson of the Seattle Seahawks has thrown more touchdowns (39) since Tannehill assumed the starting gig in Tennessee last season.********************





    In helping lead the Titans to a 5-1 start this season, Tannehill has thrown 15 touchdowns with just two interceptions. He’s completing 68.5 percent of his passes with a 112.3 passer rating. All four statistics rank inside the top 10 in the league at the position.

    Tannehill’s play has helped fully unlock Derrick Henry in Tennessee’s offense and allowed the Titans to become an efficient offensive attack. And with a full season’s worth of starts in Tennessee under his belt, he’s vaulted himself into the conversation as one of the league’s best.



    “So thankful for the opportunity to be a part of this organization, part of this team,” Tannehill said. “And thankful for the teammates that I have around me that make going out there and playing each and every day a ton of fun, and obviously winning is a lot of fun as well.”
     
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  16. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent Well-Known Member

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    Lol at this guys comment.


     
  17. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. Even without Gronk Tampa has a lot of weapons, I do agree about wanting to do it their way but I think hes in Tampa regardless and they probably arent much better or worse without him (Meaning Gronk) so far.
     
  18. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Man, what a clown..... a little better - "3-1" LOL, but, but, but.....

    They are throwing more than last year and they are still winning. Tannehill is 4th in passer rating, and 4th in CPOE.

    What is interesting is that he is doing it differently this year. The pass protection has been a concern so they are throwing the ball quicker. His average time to throw has gone from 2.9 to 2.63 seconds. But, he is still tied for 6th in average completed air yards. Of the top 10 in average completed air yards, only Wilson has a higher completion % and a higher passer rating. Tannehill also has the lowest bad throw % in the league.

    All while Henry has been held under 4 YPC in 4 of 6 games.

    2020 is proving that his accuracy and decision making were not flukes in 2019 and not dependent on a dominating running game.
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I think Andy Dalton proved that to be wrong.
     
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  20. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I dont think one person new to the team that doesnt fit the offensive scheme proved anything.
     
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  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I think it does. I also think the fact that Dax is still 9th in passing yards also proves that he is a pretty good quarterback. Funny in an entire thread about underrating a quarterback, people just want to underrate another. Sad.
     
  22. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Dak epitomized garbage time yards this season. He is a decent QB but the #1 in passing yards is inflated.
     
  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    It's not Dak's fault he is playing on a team with a historically bad defense.
     
  24. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Now some "genius" will try to minimize that.

    I always liked Tannehill and am delighted things have worked out well for him with the Titans.
     
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  25. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but honestly, IMO, he's been overrated for the last few years. Solid 8-12 range QB who is regularly talked about as top 5-6.
     
  26. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Football Sunday and Miami is 3-3 and Tua is making his much anticipated debut and this stupid Ryan Tannehill thread still tops the Dolphins forum.

    Move this stupid topic to the general NFL section already.
     
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  27. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Don't worry. Tua will be the talk of town (and this board) whatever happens today. The Tannehill debates are winding down anyway. Besides, this place gets too little traffic to really complain about a thread that gets traffic.
     
  28. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Wow. Titans lose to Bengals! I had the game on a 2nd screen but couldn't pay too much attention because of the Dolphins. Still I did see the Titans dominate the rushing game: 218 yards rushing! Tannehill played bad early but came back stronger. His 2020 rating is now 109.8 and the probability he's "the same QB" as in Miami is 0.0155%. 2 more weeks of this I think.
     
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  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here's the thing- you told us last year that no QB has ever been average for 6 seasons then turned it around in year seven & beyond. So RT is definitely unique in that statistic. But you're telling me today that there's a .0155% chance he's the same guy from Miami, but I know he is because he hangs out with the same ultra-hot wife in both cities. So either he's a cyborg clone or he's the same guy! (and if he's not the same guy, we have even bigger things to worry about! I don't even want to think what all this means if the Terminator is real! How many more are out there? Why's this one playing in the NFL? Who's going to tell his wife and console her over this twisted turn of events?)

    Anyway, we know he's doing something that shouldn't be possible since it's never happened before- but what does that mean? Did RT evolve and finally grow into being a big boy QB....or is his opportunity just that much better in TN? I see the same QB as 5 years ago so I already know where my opinion will land, but I'm not sure what these stats do for those who disagree.

    Stinks they lost two straight though- looking forward to see how he bounces back next week. Damn cyborg...
     
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  30. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    So it's clear I said never has any QB gone from sustained average to sustained elite. That's a separate question than the one I'm providing stats for, which is whether he's statistically the "same QB" as in Miami. Looks like he isn't, which is certainly borne out by what you see on film. He looks more confident, MUCH better leader, and runs the 2-minute and 4-minute offense like a QB that knows what he's doing (unlike in Miami).

    Whether he can be the first to go from sustained average to sustained elite (statistically) is a completely different question. I'll look into that at the end of the season where I'll look at all 2-season stretches of play that were as good as whatever Tannehill's end up being and then calculate the likelihood those stats are from an above average QB (let's say that's 0.5-1 z-score) or an elite QB (let's say >1 z-score). I don't think the sample size to distinguish between those two categories will be large enough after 2 seasons (remember statistical significance is VERY conservative), but that's a discussion we can have at season's end.

    In any case, Tannehill is just around +1 z-score right now so he's certainly on track for "elite", but trust me that's a much more difficult test to pass, and there's nothing wrong if he doesn't pass it. Let's first wait till 2020 is over though before I look at historical stats on this (larger sample sizes tend to be required when the differences are smaller).
     
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  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sure, but you're proving he's "not the same QB"...even though we know he is. So either he massively changed or the pieces around him did- or a combination of both. We know all that stuff happened as well. He's playing better, his teammates trust him, the defense is playing great overall, coaching is better, etc. So there's a lot there in general to explain why your stats say "That's not Ryan Tannehill, no sir, no way, no how!"

    But what does that tell us specifically other than "stuff really had to change?" We already knew that and we also know that some QB's with those changes play worse than the years before (Cam Newton is an example since it's easy).

    I think what this really tells us is that Philbin and Gase just didn't support RT in a way that he needed, the front office didn't cater to the talents they surely believed he had, the play calling didn't suit RT in Miami, etc. etc. But we can go a level deeper- why didn't the play calling suit RT like it does today? Because he was always playing from behind trying to do everything himself in an offense that wasn't built to be explosive or to protect the QB. For instance, look how much Tua did this week to win the game....or look at how hard Fitz worked two weeks ago to earn the victory....they essentially skated thru the game on basic reads and plays. Two different QB's, two different skill levels but the exact same result because of the other pieces involved.

    I don't think this tells us ANYTHING about RT to be honest because the confidence you see, that's simply a byproduct of having a system that lets him be successful. The crazy part is that RT is still running "Mariota's Offense"...this wasn't even catered to him from the ground up. We just failed the guy that badly from the front office to the coaching to the personnel on the field. That's the only thing that makes sense unless you're buying into my cyborg theory....
     
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  32. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Can you name a time in Miami where you weren't completely expecting the OL would absolutely collapse during a 2-minute or 4-minute drill? I can't. How do you think that makes the QB look during the drives?
     
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  33. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    No I don't think he is. He's improved as a QB independent of his surroundings. It may have taken a new set of surroundings to allow him to develop further, but no he's not the same QB as far as I can tell just by watching him play.

    Yeah no it wasn't the OL during those times. I agree the OL was in general bad throughout Tannehill's tenure in Miami, but his inability to run a 2-minute or 4-minute offense in Miami went well beyond any issues with the OL. He couldn't get the offense set in time, didn't seem to play "fast" or act like he was aware of the game situation, etc. What I'm talking about goes way beyond OL. Like I told KeyFin he's a different QB out there, independent of the much better surroundings.

    At least that's what I see.
     
  34. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not sure I see the same thing. Sure, the confidence is night and day different- he no longer "braces for impact" nearly as much because he's usually already escaping the pocket by the time it fully collapses. So something did click there; he's taking that first evasive step earlier and he's not panicking when someone puts hands on him. Reactions seem a touch faster all-around as well...maybe that's the line, maybe not.

    But overall, I see almost the exact same guy we've always seen- I really do. We've seen flashes of "this" his entire career for a game or two at a time, then in a few larger spurts under Gase those final few years. It was never constant though and nobody could ever say why- I personally thought it was mental more than anything. I remember for a few months there, I was wondering if he had serious hearing problems since he never "felt" the pressure. So I just don't know...there's not enough here to even have an opinion anymore. He's an enigma for sure.
     
  35. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    What about the 2-minute and 4-minute offense though? I NEVER saw him do that well in Miami, not under Philbin nor under Gase. He had no sense of game situation for one (e.g., wasting time when one needs to pay attention to time remaining). THAT is definitely different this time around.

    Anyway, it's not important if you see it differently, but it's a lot easier to explain sustained increases in performance if you assume the player is also playing at a higher level. I don't think the statistical significance we're about to see (once this is over) is as easy as just being on a different team with no improvement on Tannehill's part. Just my opinion of course.
     
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  36. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    We have won 3 straight, OUR franchise QB had his first start.....and the hot topic in the mains is Ryan Tannehill.
     
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  37. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    You haven't paid attention to the mains. Almost all the posts are about Tua, our defense, etc.. Less than 10 posts today about Tannehill, and it's more casual in nature than previously.
     
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  38. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    It seems to always be the top trending topic in this forum. Happy to hear ya'll took a small break today. :knucks:
     
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  39. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Lets put down the anointing oil before we call a guy who threw 93 yards a franchise quarterback..
     
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  40. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    We can agree to disagree. I saw a terrible supporting cast and terrible coaching for most of his time in Miami.
     
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