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Run Defense Woes... Back to 3-4?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by zwave21, Dec 3, 2014.

  1. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    The run defense is getting gashed these past few weeks and while some people may feel it is only temporary this issue has just been masked by teams passing on us. Some factors I can attribute this to are:

    1. Kevin Coyle - While it's not just him he may be the biggest factor in the lack of success. He is very bland and predictable in his run defense. It's sad it took him a whole half to switch to a 5-2 w/a safety in the box, but once he did it at least slowed the bleeding. Overall I am not impressed with Coyle especially for the lack of preparation we can see on game day especially early in the game. Last thing I struggle with him is his reluctance to piece proper players into ideal fits (more on that later).

    2. DE's lack of setting the edge - Our DE's while considered pass rush specialist are on the smaller side for DE's. Each struggle to set the edge against the run and can often get anchored by larger tackles. Cam Wake is especially struggling as seen with his high rotation vs. the Jets. Vernon has improved in that aspect but more or less from hustle than anything. Jordan will be addressed later but for him to still exclusively be a DE is commical.

    3. Lack of consistent LB play - Jelani Jenkins has been the only bright spot in our LB unit. Still Jenkins has had a good year and should get Pro Bowl consideration but he still has limitations with a lack of size or strength but no reason to believe he can't keep improving, (IMO I'd be fine going with only him going forward for this unit). Phillip Wheeler is awful and shouldn't be playing. Koa Misi was terrible last week, as in god awful. Can't tell you how many wiff's he had, and when he wasn't he was sitting in sand trying to read the play. That along with his injuries, and along with his contract it's sad this is the best we can do going forward. The lack of a consistent run stuffing LB is sorely missed, as Jenkins excels in space finding a LB to plug holes is ideal.

    4. Lack of Interior Push - You'd think that with a rotation of Starks - Mitchell - Odrick we wouldn't struggle with our interior DL play but that has attributed a lot recently. Losing Solai hurt us as he could eat up 2 blockers with ease leaving Starks/Odrick to roam free with LB. Mitchell does his best eating 2 blockers but when it's Odrick/Starks neither does well with 2 blockers. Not having another DT who can take up space is an achilles heal right now.

    Solution: My solution is simple as I have thought we have been playing out of scheme for a couple years now. Our defense was ranked much higher the last few years as a 3-4 defense than we have been as a 4-3. While the pass defense I will say has improved with Coyle our run defense has been struggling. Most people look at that transition as a big struggle to find the right pieces. I think we already have a lot of good pieces in house. Our secondary won't have to change major. Still believe #2 CB is a need going forward, as well as FS if we don't resign Delmas.

    For DLine, Mitchell played in that system in Houston while playing the NT. Personally, I think he is more talented and better suited for a DE in 3-4 as he can get to the pass rusher and run defend. Starks has played and excelled in that scheme as has Odrick. This scheme allows us not to feel as burdened to resign Odrick though I'd like to see him back. The major need would to be a NT and a big run stuffer at that. Free Agency should have some options and seems like younger players as well. I'd also look to develop Fede/Johnson in role for this scheme. Shelby could fit into the rotation as well.

    The next thing is to address the shift in our DE's to OLB. Luckily Wake has some of his best seasons in a 3-4 scheme and should transition fine. Vernon is a player who I think would be a sure fire Pro Bowler in a 3-4. He rushes majority in a 2 point stance and has shown the quick step necessary. Oh and then we move to Dion Jordan who everyone in the world outside of our staff knows he'd be a much better OLB than DE. Why? He is multi-faceted and hasn't shown he can handle the rigors of putting his hand in the dirt every down. He played in a 3-4 in Oregon and has the ability to rush and pass defend. Then we have Chris McCain who built like Jordan would excel in this defense as well as him an Jordan are extremely similar builds with McCain being more explosive and Jordan being bigger and stronger. The problem there is too many... I'd entertain offers for Wake and yes I will get some side eyed look but he is 32 and still has value. Fine with keeping him but if someone were to offer say a 2nd or 3rd rounder I wouldn't run away from it.

    Lastly is the ILB play. Jenkins is a question in this scheme if he can hold up as usually you need a bigger ILB. But, I see Chris Borlan excelling in SF and he is not that much if not bigger than Jelani. What we do need is a stud ILB. Great thing is there is a draft full of them (McKinney, Perryman, Kendricks, Thompson, Frost). also you got KJ Wright a potential from Seattle. Keep Misi cause of his contract and as rotational piece and cut after 2015. Tripp could develop in this scheme as well.

    Draft: CB & LB ; Sign: NT

    Thoughts?
     
    54Fins, djphinfan, Boik14 and 4 others like this.
  2. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    Agree that we have missed a space eater like Solai the last two games.Now need two players to replace one.
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    at this point of the season, i like to throw numbers out the window, there are so many variables in play, its time to just win..all you can do is look at each position in isolation in the offseason, and see if that player is in need to get upgraded..then by upgrading individuals your team as a whole will improve.
     
  4. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    Getting rid of Wake is absurd! He is not the typically 32 year old, since he hasn't been in the league as long as 32 year olds that came to the NFL straight out of college, he takes excellent care of himself. In my mind he is 25 and arguably our best player on Defense besides Grimes.
     
  5. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    No, Big Paul was declining last year. He has not been doing well in Atlanta.
     
    77FinFan likes this.
  6. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I disagree... for now.

    You don't switch schemes, set you defense back (lots of players, esp young ones will have growing pains as they learn and get more comfortable in the new scheme).

    You get a DC who will gameplan and ADJUST. Actually bring an extra defender down when you are being destroyed by the run against a team with a terrible QB> I mean, basic common sense coaching stuff. Also, play Odrick-Starks-Mitchell plus your best run DE on run downs instead of rotating the DEs.. again, only if they are loading up the run against us.

    Now, if we ARE doing all of that for four games straight and STILL cannot stop the run at all... then yes, make a switch.
     
  7. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They're playing a not-insignificant amount of 3-4 now, and it's something they did and it didn't really work during the game. They basically needed a safety in the box for the numbers advantage. I think the problem was more Coyle did a poor job reacting to some of the issues that were occurring, and I think he could have done a much better job with it a variety of ways.

    I think the biggest concern outside of Coyle being out-schemed is Randy Starks. Teams are targeting him with double teams and he's losing badly, and I'm not sure if he's not declining. He's only 30, but he's an 11-year veteran at this point.

    If the Dolphins do switch to a 3-4(which I think they should explore), I think you've got to consider the biggest concern to be DE. Odrick is a FA, Starks is declining, and I disagree with the idea that Mitchell should be a DE. He'd basically be an obligate 3-technique, he's short armed and not a particular danger to play wider techniques. I'd tend to be of the belief Miami should look for a true DE rather than a converted DT. Someone who can still line up in a 6-technique.
     
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  8. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Yep. kinda lost me at even considering putting Wake on the block. Idc what anyone says.

    I'd laugh in the face of someone offering a 2nd rounder for him. We got a 2nd rounder for Grandma's boy, and it took THAT wake up call for him to start playing to his potential.

    Aside from being a cornerstone and face of the franchise, adding to what Ricky said, You can't go off of age with someone that has the absolute highest form of commitment and dedication to his craft to go along with the raw talent like Wake does.
     
  9. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    You don't trade talented players unless you have no alternative (contract, behavior, etc...). You can't guarantee a return on investment. Very rarely do you get better using this method. See Vontae Davis as one of many examples.
     
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  10. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ive been a proponent of the 3-4 forever. The idea of being able to disguise coverages better and make QB's take that extra second to diagnose defenses can mean a lot. Ideally Id have done this prior to the season but I dont think its impossible to transition now since most of our D has 3-4 experience. The only round peg/square hole scenario for me is Vernon who I think would have to be an open end 3-4 rusher rather than a guy who plays in space.

    I think Id position it as Odrick (Closed End...LDE) - Mitchell (NT) - Vernon (Open End..RDE) Starks as the LDE/NT sub and Shelby as the RDE sub.
    Jordan (LOLB) - Misi (LILB) - Jenkins (RILB) - Wake (ROLB) and McCain and Wheeler as subs; Wheeler ILB and McCain OLB.
     
  11. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    I don't see how 3-4 improves tackling. We had 8 in the box. They got us on some reverses too. 4-3 is the right alignment for the guys we have. I don't want to see Wake and Vernon in space as OLBs, nor do I want to see Starks as NT ever again.
    Main issue is gap control. Last year and in the years past, it seemed to me, LBers had absolutely no idea what the front was doing. The LBers looked like purely cover guys disconnected from the front. That has significantly improved this year, and for the first time in the long time.
     
  12. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    No Tim Bowens or Gardner type monsters to eat up blocks. Seems like a lot of highly ranked run defenses have been gashed recently.

    Our defense is savvy enough to make a jump to any alignment. Our guys are really versatile. Jordan would be great lb. Wouldn't hurt to get more fat guys on the line.

    Need more fat *** linemen. Shouldn't be difficult now that the weight watchers regime is gone.
     
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  13. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    So here's a question... what is there more of in this draft, players perfect for a 3-4 D or for a 4-3 D?
     
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  14. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Ideally, it doesn't matter. Take the best guy regardless as versatile as we are. We took Dion.
     
  15. Fin4Ever

    Fin4Ever Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I like your well thought out plan as I have been doing this as well trying to figure why we do not go back to the 3-4 with the plethora of quality players that we have and as you know also we have too many good? Players inactive on game day or riding the pine....I can tell that you put quality time into your thoughts.Thank you..
     
  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's more complicated than that. There's a bunch of different variants of those defenses with different personnel requirements, and in some circumstances there's a big overlap.

    I think there's a rather big difficulty in finding 2-gap down linemen for a traditional 3-4, but teams are doing that much less these days and it's quite arguable that using quality defensive ends to 2-gap is a waste.
     
  17. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    Love the feedback guys, and glad to see some discussion starting. Completely understand off season talk isn't for everyone especially when we are in the midst of an intense playoff hunt. More of less just wanted to stop rattling the Baltimore match up in my mind and look long term.

    A couple things I gathered:

    I really don't think the switch would be that dramatic. We already have a plethora of pass rushers who could convert to 3-4 OLB (Vernon, Wake, Jordan, McCain, even Misi if need be). We have a solid secondary but still need to add depth. Really need to add run stuffing nose and ILB. Either way I get it now is not the time to switch but going forward into 2015 why not if it is the reason we miss out.

    Completely agree on Randy btw, he has had it rough this year.

    Def hit a nerve with the Cam Wake thing but when you aren't a consistent playoff threat, everyone should be expendable for the right price. If someone came to me an offered a high Round 2 pick for Cam Wake I'd make that trade in a second, barring we are swtiching to 3-4. Vernon is ascending and a better run defender now than Wake. Wake is the heart and soul of this team but you have to plan ahead.

    3-4 won't make us better tacklers but may give us a better opportunity. Truthfully we need better LB's and interior DL play for the tackling to improve but that is more personnel than scheme.

    Glad people agree DJ needs to be a OLB regardless of scheme, its sad Wheeler is still playing he is god awful.

    Not sure if there are more 3-4 or 4-3 players, I think players themselves are more diverse now. The toughest thing I believe to gauge in 3-4 is the OLB position. Reason being is OLB in 3-4 tend to be on the smaller side of pass rushers therefore struggle in 1 on 1 situations with hand in the dirt. Problem there is that while being small they may not be athletic enough in space to cover as a 4-3 OLB.

    Overall, I think there is zero chance we switch to 3-4 with Coyle at the helm as he is from Cincy who has run a 4-3 for decades. Problem is Coyle inefficiency to be creative against the run and his personnel choices. If he does stay I hope that defense is not a neglected need in offseason.
     
  18. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    over there
    Rex Ryan can work wonders for this D, and the talent that is still under contract for next season.
    Only as the DC, of course.
     
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