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Roster ramifications of the draft- Cap casualties and shifted positions

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Disgustipate, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Why would this be putting him at one position? WADR, I don't think you quite understand the nature of our defense and the position involved. Using Jordan as the SAM hybrid (but flipped to the right side) DOES take advantage of his versatility. That's the whole point. He has the athleticism to play the position in base defense [which he can also rush & blitz from], and then in nickel he moves to DE to get after the QB. This is what he's meant for. What you are recommending is the true disservice b/c sticking him at end full time is what would actually reduce his versatility. The role of the RDE in our base defense is not that of a pass rusher; it's closer in responsibility to 3-4 end than traditional 4-3 rush end. Generally speaking, I don't know how many times posters have to keep pointing this out about our defense for the forum to finally catch on. It's getting a little annoying. What you're essentially arguing as that guys like Von Miller, Clay Matthews, and Aldon Smith are better served as a down defensive end in base D and nickel.

    BTW, this isn't a future 280 pounder. Not sure why you're inflating his stature to that.
     
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  2. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    no, not better.
     
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  3. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    He will be a tweener, as I've said before and Con said in this thread...he will likely be used similar to M. Johnson who clearly if not tagged would've broke the bank in Miami.

    Dion can cover and wreak havoc on the QB, he is the perfect weapon in this new era of football.
     
  4. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Many fans don't pay attention to schemes when watching THEIR TEAM.

    To understand what Jordan will be doing, re-watch our games and focus on Misi in base formations and then both Misi and Vernon on passing situations.

    Can also expectwith Vernon now reportedly up to 270 that in passing situations he will have his hands in the dirt.

    Idk if I ever saw jordan put his hand in the dirt at Oregon, but with that being said he has a very effective rip and uses hands well, just needs to not get pushed out wide. He shows strength and sets the edge well so I don't see this being a issue in the future.

    I wanted Jarvis Jones but Jones cannot drop back in coverage like this 6-7 athlete can.

    I'm so excited the see our defense this year, no reason we shouldnr be elite
     
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  5. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Do you believe the impact Jordan can have from Misi's position warrants the trade up to #3 overall to get him?
     
  6. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    I think he can impact our team more than any player in this draft
     
  7. ANYONE!!! Misi is easily the worst starter on our entire defense. He has only one ability, and that is setting the edge in run support. He is the worst at covering that we have and he CAN'T rush the passer AT ALL!!! He couldn't do it in college and can't now. With Dion playing both OLB and DE, he will take snaps from Misi, and I would not be surprised at all to see Jenkins get in by midseason and completely take over the spot. Koa is a solid backup, but nothing more. Has NO game changer abilities and was kept when two better players were released because he is on a rookie contract.
     
  8. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sure. I can't really complain about any of the aspects of how the deal went down at this point, and don't think the position works against him.

    I think you've got to look at things like the Steelers OLBs. James Harrison for example ended up rushing only about 60% of his snaps on passing downs, and he was still a very effective pass rusher. If you're penciling Jordan into Misi/Vernon's spots from last year, you're looking at the same general thing- You've got a base package OLB who is mostly going to cover, and a Nickel package edge rusher who is going to sometimes drop into coverage.

    Which fits well with what it looks like the Dolphins are going to do. It very much looks like Kevin Coyle showing a bit of Dick LeBeau influence. They picked up ILBs( ILB/OLB technically) who can blitz very well for that position, and an edge rusher who can presumptive cover very well for that position. You line up in a 3-3 Nickel package, sugar the gaps, and then try to make things difficult from a protection scheme standpoint.
     
  9. I agree, Freeny looks like it would take a miracle to keep his job. Trusnik is signed to a two year deal and is slightly safer, but not by much. Koa will be a solid backup, and for the price a good guy to have on the roster. But not as a starting play maker.

    I mentioned this is another thread, but will do so again here. Make out a depth chart for all 22 positions. Then look at who you have projected as the backups. Then compare them to last year. Our 2nd string is SOOO much better than it was last year. We still do not have stars at every position and can still upgrade positions. We REALLY need to answer some questions on the OL, but overall I see this being a much better, top to bottom, 53 than we were last year.

    I really feel we are heading in the right direction.
     
  10. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    How do you think the college tape of Jordan lining up in slot coverage and either blitzing or covering from there factors into this?
     
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    the perfect weapon in this new era..talk to me O?
     
  12. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I'm in favor of keeping whoever the best 5 guys are, regardless of cost. Not my money though. Realistically, Marshall and Patterson will be starters or be cut IMO.
     
  13. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Yeah, if we moved up to 3rd overall I have to believe there are larger plans than to play him at WLB, Jelani Jenkins is a better fit as a WLB. It makes sense to play Jordan at OLB early on b/c of his size but I imagine they'd like to get him up around 260 to play DE at some point.
     
  14. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    You're right. But Wake is exclusively a LDE and normally on the strength, I'm thinking we'd prefer to have he and Jordan lining up on opposite sides of the line.
     
  15. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Misi won't be going anywhere. Considering Jordan's snap counts and the rookie wall I could for see them splitting time at the strong side and then Jordan getting some opportunities in obvious passing downs to rush from the DE spot.

    Misi's last year willl be used to ease him in while Jordan transitions.
     
  16. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    260 sounds more like it.

    I think Jordan's best used in Vernon's role from last year while Vernon and Jenkins compete for Misi's role.
     
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  17. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I would surprised if we see Jordan play much in a 3-point stance.
     
  18. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Why's that?
     
  19. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Experience playing that way, and he doesn't look as comfortable IMO. He has a pretty obvious fit in the defense as a stand-up player too.
     
  20. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Moderator Staff Member Club Member

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    I think you could match him up on TEs that get flexed out into the slot or in another nontraditional manner for a TE. San Francisco did this with Aldon Smith last year a lot. Though, he's primarily just trying to beat the guy to death coming off the line rather than cover him downfield - I think Jordan gives us that capability while being able to cover someone off the line.
     
  21. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Moderator Staff Member Club Member

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    Speaking to Disgustipate talking about the 3-3-5 nickel, if you looked at it last year:

    RDE - Odrick
    DT - Starks
    LDE - Wake
    RLB - Vernon
    MLB - Dansby
    LLB - Burnett

    ...is what it looked like. With the additions to this year's lineup, it gives Miami the flexibility to adjust it based on other teams tendencies, while adding more pass-rushing and/or blitzing elements to it. I think we'll see something that looks like this:

    RDE - Odrick or Vernon
    DT - Starks or Odrick
    LDE - Wake
    RLB - Jordan or Vernon
    MLB - Ellerbe
    LLB - Wheeler or Jenkins

    Miami's got to play a number of really pass-happy teams in New Orleans, New England twice, Atlanta, Cincinnati, San Diego, and based on what we saw from Buffalo last year, they can be a matchup problem - they certainly were in the Thursday Night game last year.

    I think these roster additions give you the capability to mix and match your lineup and formation/scheme based on who you're playing. And, you've still yet to really touch on guys who are sub-guys in base packages like a Derrick Shelby and a developmental guy like Josh Kaddu. And of course, you've got Koa Misi who probably starts in the base package initially.

    That's a lot of depth, and I think it will help Miami in the long run. You won't have two LBs eating up all the snaps in every single package as Dansby and Burnett were last year. Now you've got more guys who can come in on certain packages: Jordan, Vernon, Jenkins, Shelby, and maybe Kaddu. Dansby and Burnett were nice players, but I don't think the overall athleticism they brought to the table is going to match up with what Miami CAN do this year.

    *Edit - You could also add Indianapolis as a pass-happy team, and Cam Newton and Joe Flacco have also had big games in the past.
     
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  22. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I like him standing up but I think the 3-4 pt could work well for him. Hopefully the coaches will work with on it. Watching JT couldn't hurt.
     
  23. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    100%.
     
  24. sandcastle

    sandcastle Active Member

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    I think Wake will be move around. Last year, he played LDE because of his ability to beat RTs for sacks, the defense's need of his pressures to speed up QB decision-making, and staff's uncertainty that he could hold the edge. The pleasant surprise was that Wake was able to become stouter and evolved from a tweener to a full-fledged lineman.

    Giving RDE snaps to Wake compliments Coyle's preference to blitz from the blindside and from multiple angles to the QB. His consistent ability to provide pressure with inside and outside moves can provide clear path for a blitzing LB, S, or CB. With Jordan at RDE/SLB, the protection needs to account for his rushing the QB while his coverage skills can allow the defense to have 7 men dropping and forcing the QB to find secondary targets.

    Every year, the NFL is becoming more like the NBA where now most games decided in the last half of the 4th quarter. You cannot have enough athletic 250 lb rushers and coverage players if you want to stop an offense that has increased it's pace and intensity. Therefore, you do not want to sacrifice athleticism of the Jordans, Vernons, etc to become better at the POA.

    On the other hand, it would be interesting to see if Wake can expand his DL techniques. I love to see games finished with Starks, Odrick, and Wake flanked by rangy OLBers. Ideally, these 3 could generate some pressure as QB sees little with 8 in coverage. To force a stop, multiple blitzing options would force QB to hurry the throw.
     
  25. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    It definitely could work, and I think it would. But I just think he's more effective standing up. I think seeing him in a 3pt stance maybe 15% of the time is ideal.
     
  26. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Also don't expect both our high cap guys to be gone. I have a feeling based on preseason that whichever one plays better will be offered to stay....at a reduced contract. This is where Patterson may edge out over Marshall due to signing bonus. If he performs well through camp etc they could offer him a reduced contract of $1.0 million with incentives to double it.

    Or he can try to find a job after final cuts and hope to get a min vet offer from a team.
     
  27. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    I think Patterson sticks.
     
  28. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You Club Member

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    We could keep both due to Marshall's versatility.
     
  29. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I have a hard time seeing them spend that much on such marginal contributions, especially when they can cut Patterson and not carry any dead money. This team is going to do their best to get to the salary floor.
     
  30. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not sure, to be honest. I don't know what to expect from him in this area. He's physically gifted but is lining up against slot guys just a gimmick and not really tenable in the NFL? He's athletic, but I'm not sure I expect him to be an anti-tight end silver bullet or be someone who covers slot receivers.
     
  31. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I dont think that they'll be cutting guys just so that they dont have to spend money. We have some very important players that we need to resign. If cutting Patterson means that money goes to a long term deal for Rashad Jones, how can anyone be opposed, for example?
     
  32. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The two are separate issues. They should give Jones a long-term contract, but that still isn't going to change the fact they'll likely end up around the salary floor. The obvious person who would be opposed to spending beyond the floor would be the owner.
     
  33. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Would not be shocking to see us prowl around for any CB mid range vet cuts again this year if Patterson/Marshall do not go for reduced contracts. Unless Grimes is looking really bad or the injury is healing way behind schedule, at least one has to be gone, likely both.

    Carp is the obvious cut though - no reason to pay a kicker that money, there are to many decent ones out there. Unless Sturgis just sucks in camps and such, he will be our K this year.
     
  34. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    The protection afforded to the WLB behind Odrick is pretty strong. I don't see any reason why Jenkins can't start this year in the base. What you have to remember about the nickel and dime defense is that when you've got athletic cover LBs like Jenkins, you're gaining an advantage in run D any time the opposing team goes to a smaller package. Remember how the Pats ran over Miami's dime in the 2011 season opener? No more of that nonsense. Jenkins can cover ridiculously well. It's all about getting guys that can keep run defense integrity and cover.

    On a side note: Does anyone remember Jason Taylor's technique back in the heyday? Was he a six or did he play some five as well?
     
  35. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    But what might that capability present in the way of 1) jamming bigger slot guys, like Aaron Hernandez, at the line, and/or 2) blitzing from that area of the field, which can cause confusion in the QB's pre-snap reads?

    Of course none of that has the intended effect if Jordan can't drop into some form of pass coverage (perhaps just a short zone) from that spot, but it looks as if he certainly can. That could in effect be the answer to these athletic tight ends who right now create such tremendous mismatches. It's not necessarily a defensive guy who can blanket them one-on-one down the field, but perhaps a guy who has the size and strength to jam them effectively at the line, and the speed to attack the quarterback effectively from that spot.
     
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  36. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I agree with you that Misi is the worst starter on the defense. I also happen to think that Odrick is the second worst starter on the defense. Hopefully the Dolphins will come to terms with Soliai and Starks before they leave in free agency after the 2013 season. This would allow Vernon and Jordan to get more playing time and the Dolphins would be free to cut or trade both Odrick and Misi before the 2014 season begins.

    I figure Misi and Odrick will still be here for the 2013 season because the Dolphins are worried about both Soliai and Starks leaving after this coming season. They are both far more important to the defense than either Misi and Odrick, therefore I hope the Dolphins can figure out way to keep both these players beyond the 2013 season. I doubt if any other team would give the Dolphins a draft pick for Misi, so he would probably just have to be cut. Perhaps the Dolphins could get at least a 7th round pick for Odrick at this stage of his career.
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Doc, I've written this several times, I've seen this dude jam the receiver in the slot and get to the Qb, I've seen him line up outside the far hash on a receiver in a press situation, leave the receiver, have the safety drop over to cover, time the snap and rush and finish at the Qb.
     
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  38. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You Club Member

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    I don't disagree... I could see them keeping both using that as justification. I prefer we keep one though. Grimes, Taylor, ???, Carroll, Davis...
     
  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Marshall has injury issues, but cutting Patterson would save more money. Not sure which direction they'll go, may come down to how they perform in camp.
     
  40. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral Staff Member

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    Didn't read the whole thread. Late to the party on this one. But IMO:

    I think Koa Misi is safe. He showed flashes of being a solid contributor last season. He's higher up on my depth chart than Jason Trusnik. Yes, Trusnik signed that deal last year. But that's not always a guarantee that he'll be on the 53 the following year.

    I also think Jimmy Wilson is going to end up making the team somehow someway. He's the new Tyrone Culver. Jack of all trades. He certainly had his share of struggles as the nickel slot guy and IMO that's not where he should be used. He's more of an off safety (like Culver). Who you can send on a blitz once in a while and go get the ball. Also, ST's should be where he makes the team.

    Writing is on the wall for Carpenter. We don't draft a kicker as high as the fifth round and not "hand" him the starting kicking job. Plus how often do you carry two kickers? Would one be deemed a kickoff specialist? Maybe, but Carpenter's salary really makes that less likely.

    Marshall/Patterson? No rush IMO. we've got the salary room to let that play itself out in training camp. I hope we have great competition at all spots, including corner, and can then trade one (rather than release one) for some 2014 draft compensation or help in other areas.
     

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