Roquan Smith

"Redwine4all wrote:

This is what I saw when I looked at the Penn State game. He was completely marginalized by a blocker and a chip. No real game planning needed. I think Da'Ron Payne is a much complete and dominant tackle.

I don’t see enough range and or pass rush ability to drop an 11 banger on him..

"Hoops wrote:

Well I know Daniel Jeremiah asked a team picking in the low 20s if they spent time with vea and they said “why? To wish him good luck?” As in he’s gonna be long gone by then.

The special teams open field on the returner tackle alone in the penn state game will get guys that size that can move that well drafted top 20. That play was rediculous. I do agree the penn state bowl game tape is not his best. May have been saving himself a little bit too for the pros. It happens.

Derwin james has some tape like that too. Ie i know I’m damn good I’m not getting hurt out here.

Kinda thing that usually cleans itself up once a guys getting paid. Not that I think veas tape shows a lack of effort. Motor looks damn good to me. 6 foot 4 347 too so this dudes not lacking anything measurables wise.

I think Daron Payne and Atlanta type scheme are gonna make a match. Game looks like a falcon fit to me

I see Payne doing what Saban wants him to do in that scheme and he doesn’t it beautiful, every rep he’s like a robot, perfect technique, pops off the snap, establishe skeverage, extends the arms to engage the tackle, then basically keep the tackle at bay while he reads the ball, Rios and finishes so consistently, the time I see him get unleashed to rush the qb I see more moves more range then Vea.

So to me it comes down to this question..

What can Vea do that Payne cant.? Because just because he’s bigger doesn’t mean much, Payne is quicker faster, better agility..

I think some get enamored with that movement relative to his size and that buys them in..

Boom, I REALLY do hope you are right on Vea! He is who i’d Like to see .... think he will be an anchor here for a DECADE! And offers us flexibility to switch to 3-4 and back ....

I fear we go with Smith, because of McMillan ... a bit of a question coming back from injury, and we have not made any changes/effort to offset. And dam sure Alonso isn’t an answer ....

I do ask though, what are your thoughts on Allen? What can we look to see in year 2 from him? He showed positively at times last year ....

Here are the relative pass-rushing productivity of potential first round defensive tackles for comparison sake:

PFF wrote:

Maurice Hurst: 12.1
Vita Vea: 10.3
Taven Bryan: 9.4
Da'Ron Payne: 6.5

Da'Ron Payne performed like you expect from a run-down specialist. Vea performed like an every-down DT. I'm not sure you can write it off on scheme, either.

I just don't see it with Payne. Just not a fan. Maybe some of you are seeing what I am not. I don't think these two are close in comparison honestly.

Well here’s a thing for Roquan Smith and top 10

Never seen a 6 foot 1 235 lb lb go top 10.

That usually best case goes top 25.

The best weakside prospect I’ve seen Lavonte David went in what round 2 I think. Of course he weighed in the 220s and was 5 foot 11 I believe so smith gets a bump for being better sized and possessing better speed. David had better box instincts.

Deion Jones went in round 2 was more raw if the comp is jones as in a 34 wilb well maybe but Deion Jones doesn’t fit every scheme. He’s allowed to run and chase and pursue the ball a lot.

I guess I’m saying I will be surprised if Roquan Smith doesn’t reach us.

More surprised than if baker mayfield doesn’t given the premium position he plays and the rookie contract value the current cba for the qb position is peanuts

"Hoops wrote:

Well here’s a thing for Roquan Smith and top 10

Never seen a 6 foot 1 235 lb lb go top 10.

That usually best case goes top 25.

The best weakside prospect I’ve seen Lavonte David went in what round 2 I think. Of course he weighed in the 220s and was 5 foot 11 I believe so smith gets a bump for being better sized and possessing better speed. David had better box instincts.

Deion Jones went in round 2 was more raw if the comp is jones as in a 34 wilb well maybe but Deion Jones doesn’t fit every scheme. He’s allowed to run and chase and pursue the ball a lot.

I guess I’m saying I will be surprised if Roquan Smith doesn’t reach us.

More surprised than if baker mayfield doesn’t given the premium position he plays and the rookie contract value the current cba for the qb position is peanuts

I wanted to draft Deion Jones in the 2nd the year he came out, thought folks were sleeping on him a bit because of his size, I didn’t see his size/strength effect negatively at impact so I was in..

Knowing what you know now, is that a first round pick?

"Hoops wrote:

Well here’s a thing for Roquan Smith and top 10

Never seen a 6 foot 1 235 lb lb go top 10.

That usually best case goes top 25.

The best weakside prospect I’ve seen Lavonte David went in what round 2 I think. Of course he weighed in the 220s and was 5 foot 11 I believe so smith gets a bump for being better sized and possessing better speed. David had better box instincts.

Deion Jones went in round 2 was more raw if the comp is jones as in a 34 wilb well maybe but Deion Jones doesn’t fit every scheme. He’s allowed to run and chase and pursue the ball a lot.

I guess I’m saying I will be surprised if Roquan Smith doesn’t reach us.

More surprised than if baker mayfield doesn’t given the premium position he plays and the rookie contract value the current cba for the qb position is peanuts

With Jones being Smith's comp this is also an important note you addressed . . .

Deion Jones went in round 2 was more raw if the comp is jones as in a 34 wilb well maybe but Deion Jones doesn’t fit every scheme. He’s allowed to run and chase and pursue the ball a lot

. . . that is getting overlooked in a lot of Dolphin draft circles.

"djphinfan wrote:

I wanted to draft Deion Jones in the 2nd the year he came out, thought folks were sleeping on him a bit because of his size, I didn’t see his size/strength effect negatively at impact so I was in..

Knowing what you know now, is that a first round pick?

I'm not sure what you are asking me exactly. if it's is deion jones worth a 1st round pick I'd say yes he's validated a top 25 pick as a pro to date. but it's also scheme specific. in Miami he'd be a wlb

so would roquan

"Hoops wrote:

I'm not sure what you are asking me exactly. if it's is deion jones worth a 1st round pick I'd say yes he's validated a top 25 pick as a pro to date. but it's also scheme specific. in Miami he'd be a wlb

so would roquan

You answered..

I'm getting the feeling now that it's either vea or a lb for pick 11

darkhorse lb for the pick Leighton vander esch

"Hoops wrote:

Well here’s a thing for Roquan Smith and top 10

Never seen a 6 foot 1 235 lb lb go top 10.

That usually best case goes top 25.

The best weakside prospect I’ve seen Lavonte David went in what round 2 I think. Of course he weighed in the 220s and was 5 foot 11 I believe so smith gets a bump for being better sized and possessing better speed. David had better box instincts.

Deion Jones went in round 2 was more raw if the comp is jones as in a 34 wilb well maybe but Deion Jones doesn’t fit every scheme. He’s allowed to run and chase and pursue the ball a lot.

I guess I’m saying I will be surprised if Roquan Smith doesn’t reach us.

More surprised than if baker mayfield doesn’t given the premium position he plays and the rookie contract value the current cba for the qb position is peanuts

Well Patrick Willis wasnt top 10 but he wasnt round 2 either

"Hoops wrote:

I'm getting the feeling now that it's either vea or a lb for pick 11

darkhorse lb for the pick Leighton vander esch

Yeah thats my feel too

"Hoops wrote:

I'm getting the feeling now that it's either vea or a lb for pick 11

darkhorse lb for the pick Leighton vander esch

Only LB I want at 11 is edmunds. If he is not there we are better off trading down.

"hitman8 wrote:

Only LB I want at 11 is edmunds. If he is not there we are better off trading down.

I think Edmunds is a mistake at 11..you sure your ready to have the patience with him? and take the risk that he may not have good instincts.

"Hoops wrote:

I'm getting the feeling now that it's either vea or a lb for pick 11

darkhorse lb for the pick Leighton vander esch

Certainly happy with an impact coverage backer.....however I do not want a DT at 11.

"djphinfan wrote:

I think Edmunds is a mistake at 11..you sure your ready to have the patience with him? and take the risk that he may not have good instincts.

You are way overblowing his lack of instincts. His instincts are not that bad, and everything else about him is off the charts better than any other LB in this draft and in previous drafts going back years. He is definitely worth the 11th pick. The only thing I am worried about is him not making it to 11.

And regarding his instincts/read skills those will get better with time. Right now he is ready to be a pro bowl type linebacker even with his inconsistent read skills. Once he gets that down he will be an all pro HOF type linebacker. Thats how high his cieling is. I dont know how anybody could question us picking him at 11.

"hitman8 wrote:

You are way overblowing his lack of instincts. His instincts are not that bad, and everything else about him is off the charts better than any other LB in this draft and in previous drafts going back years. He is definitely worth the 11th pick. The only thing I am worried about is him not making it to 11.

And regarding his instincts/read skills those will get better with time. Right now he is ready to be a pro bowl type linebacker even with his inconsistent read skills. Once he gets that down he will be an all pro HOF type linebacker. Thats how high his cieling is. I dont know how anybody could question us picking him at 11.

Completely agree. IMHO, the gamble isn't great or bust...it's All Pro vs solid starter. He'll be 20 when the season starts...

"djphinfan wrote:

I think Edmunds is a mistake at 11..you sure your ready to have the patience with him? and take the risk that he may not have good instincts.

At 20 with his frame and athletic ability, I am running the card up there if hes sitting there at 11. Of course you have to have patience with him. He is going to make an impact day 1 regardless and if he learns the game and starts anticipating the play better you are talking about something special. Those are the types of players you take chances on. His floor isnt super low. His ceiling is incredibly high.

"hitman8 wrote:

You are way overblowing his lack of instincts. His instincts are not that bad, and everything else about him is off the charts better than any other LB in this draft and in previous drafts going back years. He is definitely worth the 11th pick. The only thing I am worried about is him not making it to 11.

And regarding his instincts/read skills those will get better with time. Right now he is ready to be a pro bowl type linebacker even with his inconsistent read skills. Once he gets that down he will be an all pro HOF type linebacker. Thats how high his cieling is. I dont know how anybody could question us picking him at 11.

"Redwine4all wrote:

Completely agree. IMHO, the gamble isn't great or bust...it's All Pro vs solid starter. He'll be 20 when the season starts...

Responded before I saw these responses. Spot on to me. I dont think there is a chance he makes it to 11 personally.

At the end of the day, you can’t go wrong with either Edmunds or Smith. Neither are the sure bet that some here are making them out to be.

However, if either become a Dolphin I'd be elated.

Saying that, Edmunds mental game does make me pause, but Smith's size does also. I'd think that Edmunds, being only 19, could pick up the NFL game, but if he doesn't?

Well, I'd take a smart, athletic freak who is undersized with great instincts over a less smart, athletic freak with bad instincts. If I had to choose one over the other I'd probably just flip a coin.

"danmarino wrote:

At the end of the day, you can’t go wrong with either Edmunds or Smith. Neither are the sure bet that some here are making them out to be.

However, if either become a Dolphin I'd be elated.

Saying that, Edmunds mental game does make me pause, but Smith's size does also. I'd think that Edmunds, being only 19, could pick up the NFL game, but if he doesn't?

Well, I'd take a smart, athletic freak who is undersized with great instincts over a less smart, athletic freak with bad instincts. If I had to choose one over the other I'd probably just flip a coin.

There is no indication that Edmunds is not smart, just that he on occasion misreads plays and bites on misdirection. That is mostly due to him being very young and lacking experience, not that he is'nt smart. And despite his occasional misreads he still put up great production.

Read skills can be improved with more coaching and experience, however smith's size/stength limitations and inability to get off blocks will not improve with time. You can play edmunds at any LB position and expect him to perform well, smith on the other hand needs to be put at weakside in the NFL if you want him to perform well. Either that or at Mike with two massive DTs up front protecting him from blockers and covering up his mediocre poa and stack/shed ability.

"hitman8 wrote:

There is no indication that Edmunds is not smart, just that he on occasion misreads plays and bites on misdirection. That is mostly due to him being very young and lacking experience, not that he is'nt smart. And despite his occasional misreads he still put up great production.

Read skills can be improved with more coaching and experience, however smith's size/stength limitations and inability to get off blocks will not improve with time. You can play edmunds at any LB position and expect him to perform well, smith on the other hand needs to be put at weakside in the NFL if you want him to perform well. Either that or at Mike with two massive DTs up front protecting him from blockers and covering up his mediocre poa and stack/shed ability.

You either don't comprehend things very well or you don't read posts in their entirety.

I implied that Edmunds is less smart than Smith. That doesn't infer that he's "not smart". By all accounts Smith has been the QB of his defense. Nowhere have I heard that about Edmunds. I also talked about Edmunds and how I think he will be able to pick up the NFL game because he's only 19, so I'm not sure why you're trying to make it look as if I didn't.

You're denigrating Smith in order to build up "your guy". This act of yours is boring. You do it with Harris and anyone else who isn't 'your guy".

Rueben Foster is 6’0”, 229 lbs and has already shown he's great at his position (If you take away his legal troubles) And weren't you one of the people pushing for him last year? Foster also struggled with block shedding coming out of Alabama, but it hasn’t mattered because he is quick enough to avoid blocks altogether. Smith plays with a similar style. Yes, he could shed blocks better, but it's not nearly as big a weakness as you suggest. Besides, Smith put on weight and is only about 15 pounds lighter than Edmunds (but 3-4 inches shorter) and still ran faster than Edmunds at the combine.

You say that Edmunds can be put anywhere and perform well? Maybe...maybe not. You think Kiko overran a lot of plays last year and picked the wrong gap too many times? Well, Edmunds would make Kiko's play in that regard look like an All-Pro, IMO. Edmunds is slow to react due to not being able to diagnose plays quickly. And will be that way if and until he learns the game a little better. Sure, he can overcome some of that with his freak athleticism, and his ceiling is sky high, but if he fails to develop his mental game he will be a top 10-15 bust. And if Smith doesn't fix some of his deficiencies the same can be said about him.

Bottom line, both are great players and they each have their pros and cons. (Well, to objective people they each have cons) And tearing down one in order to build up the other is just dishonest.

One may have a better career than the other. One or both may bust and one or both may end up in the HoF. But proclaiming that for either at this stage is also disingenuous.

instincts aren't gonna matter as much at strong but they will matter at mike

roquans box instincts aren't great either...he does more turning and running to the football than flowing laterally to it...the best place for that kind of game in our scheme would be weak

pretty sure raekwon going in plan a mike anyways in base at least

"danmarino wrote:

You either don't comprehend things very well or you don't read posts in their entirety.

I implied that Edmunds is less smart than Smith. That doesn't infer that he's "not smart". By all accounts Smith has been the QB of his defense. Nowhere have I heard that about Edmunds. I also talked about Edmunds and how I think he will be able to pick up the NFL game because he's only 19, so I'm not sure why you're trying to make it look as if I didn't.

You're denigrating Smith in order to build up "your guy". This act of yours is boring. You do it with Harris and anyone else who isn't 'your guy".

Rueben Foster is 6’0”, 229 lbs and has already shown he's great at his position (If you take away his legal troubles) And weren't you one of the people pushing for him last year? Foster also struggled with block shedding coming out of Alabama, but it hasn’t mattered because he is quick enough to avoid blocks altogether. Smith plays with a similar style. Yes, he could shed blocks better, but it's not nearly as big a weakness as you suggest. Besides, Smith put on weight and is only about 15 pounds lighter than Edmunds (but 3-4 inches shorter) and still ran faster than Edmunds at the combine.

You say that Edmunds can be put anywhere and perform well? Maybe...maybe not. You think Kiko overran a lot of plays last year and picked the wrong gap too many times? Well, Edmunds would make Kiko's play in that regard look like an All-Pro, IMO. Edmunds is slow to react due to not being able to diagnose plays quickly. And will be that way if and until he learns the game a little better. Sure, he can overcome some of that with his freak athleticism, and his ceiling is sky high, but if he fails to develop his mental game he will be a top 10-15 bust. And if Smith doesn't fix some of his deficiencies the same can be said about him.

Bottom line, both are great players and they each have their pros and cons. (Well, to objective people they each have cons) And tearing down one in order to build up the other is just dishonest.

One may have a better career than the other. One or both may bust and one or both may end up in the HoF. But proclaiming that for either at this stage is also disingenuous.

I did not at all want Foster last year, I knew he had mental issues and concussions that made him a risky pick. I have not said smith sucks and is a terrible pick, all I am saying is smith is not as good as Edmunds and is not a scheme fit. Smith needs to be put at weak in order to maximize his talents, we dont need a weak right now we need a SAM which edmunds can play perfectly in our scheme. Smith at sam in our wide 9 defense is a terrible fit which is why I think we should pass on a LB at 11 if edmunds is not there.