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Rob Rang weighs in.

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by smahtaz, Apr 7, 2013.

  1. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Same old argument justifying Ansah's lousy pass rush skills, except this time you're taking it a step further by trying to show how it's actually a good thing. It isn't. He's a talented guy, but a lousy pass rusher. It is what it is.
     
  2. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    To be fair, Ansah wasn't really used in a pass rushing role at BYU b/c that job understandably belonged to Kyle Van Noy, so this should be taken into consideration when comparing total pressures & sacks with the rest of the group. Ansah was used more as a closed end and along the interior than as an edge rusher; however during the senior bowl when playing on the edge I'd reckon to guess he totaled the greatest number of combined pressures/sacks.
     
  3. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    That's quite an exaggeration. They both play with a rare blend of size, length, athleticism, coordination, power, and leverage..... and they both make plays that are atypical for a defensive lineman.
     
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  4. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Pure nonesense. It's not like Ansah blew up numbers, during the season, during the Senior Bowl or during the incredible Poinsettia bowl. Pure nonesense.
     
  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ah, however there are factors that we do not know, such as what his work ethic is like, how he responds to coaching, or even his real potential.

    I'm not wild about Ansah at #12, not at all, he probably physically is close to Demarcus Ware, football skill wise he is very green.

    Question becomes does he then go nowhere ala Gholston, or with coaching and work is he an elite player?

    To many times production beats measurables, or measurables beat production, the real question is whether he will bite as a pup?

    Only one way to find out and to say otherwise is merely opinion.
     
  6. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    I could easily see the Bills taking him. They'll be running a hybrid defense, badly need a boost in pressuring QBs, have no depth, and likely aren't confident Mark Anderson is the long term answer after 1 sack in 5 games and a knee injury ending in multiple surgeries.
     
  7. Gunner

    Gunner Rock Hunter

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    I'd recommend you go back and watch the Senior Bowl game and take note of who he was up against. His big plays came against guys who wont be starting on Sunday anytime soon or because he went unblocked. When there was a quality Tackle in the game he got stoned. I'll be the first to admit I haven't watched a lot of game tape on him outside of what a few guys has posted ... but I still am not seeing it even in those
     
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  8. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    In all fairness the guy had a good Senior Bowl game. I'm not trying to be hyper critical, I just don't think that he showed very good pass rushing skills during the season, the SB practices or even the game. The first sack was ok, the 2nd sack was garbage time. From what I saw of the game Washington looked like a better pass rusher. Ansah got 2 sacks in the game, but he still failed to show what I wanted to see, which is the ability to consistently beat OTs, bend the arc, all of that. He is a compelling talent, but he's going to have his hands full in the NFL. Getting stonewalled, stopping dead in his tracks and waiting to bat down a pass or peel off the line laterally is just not a replacement for consistently beating an OT to get to the Quarterback imo.

    As a 3/4 DE with responsibilities other than generating a pass rush is where he'll find his niche imo. It's just not what I ideally want in a DE.

    As to where he's drafted- given that Justin Tuck went in the 2nd round I have a hard time seeing how Ansah deserves a first round grade. Coming out of Notre Dame Tuck was a way better DE prospect imo, not even close. Ansah to me is like a lead singer who can move and work the crowd, but is a so-so singer. His prime directive is to beat OTs and get to the QB, and that's the weakest part of his game. Compelling talent, but seriously flawed.
     
  9. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Exactly.
     
  10. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    What's pure nonsense is what you're pushing, WADR. Do you think JPP blew up numbers during his final college season? That's rhetorical b/c he had 6.5 sacks, 45 TKL, 16.5 TFL, 1 INT, 3 PD, and 2 FF as a true defensive end. As a closed end and not a primary pass rusher, Ansah had 4.5 sacks, 62 TKL, 13 TFL, 1 INT, 9 PD, and 1 FF. Oh yeah let me tell ya, those numbers are soooo far apart! :unsure:


    BTW, the Senior Bowl doesn't dish out defensive MVP honors to everyone you know, which Ansah earned. :wink2:
     
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  11. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    If Washington is drafted as a pass rusher I strongly feel he'll develop into one of this draft's top 5 or 6 productive pressure guys. His measurables are up there with Cam Wake's and DeMarcus Ware's. He's another case of being a great potential NFL edge player not being utilized as such in college.
     
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  12. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Two things:

    1. I don't understand why there has to be a side chosen on Ansah;

    2. I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate metrics on players, but I think there are metrics that are very difficult to apply to some players. I think one can say that in Ansah's case. The multiple positions, the read-and-react style of play he was told to do, the rawness -- these are all things that are difficult to narrowly analyze in the manner.
     
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  13. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Of course Ansah has limited pass rush skills!!! Why the heck wouldn't he?! His role at BYU wasn't that of an edge rusher; that job belonged to Van Noy. Name me one player who IS a great pass rusher as a novice to the trade.
    According to your argument, JPP and his 6.5 sacks as a true DE should've been a non factor as an NFL pass rusher.
     
  14. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    For sure, I agree. That's partly why I left him off of the study that CK mentioned. I did a study on their sacks earlier in draft season and I charted Ansah, but was extremely careful about presenting the metrics because of the style of play and his rawness. I think they're still worth looking at, but as is true with all metrics - you have to take them with a grain of salt and context.
     
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  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Exactly, what happens with him if the DefCord puts in Wide 9 packages and he and Wakes only realy job is to play Nascar to the Qb?

    There are players I like and don't like, but Ansah is a good enough prospect that people are making wild assumptions about imo.
     
  16. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    So a quality all star OT with years of experience at the position stoned a guy with limited experience as a pass rusher? Shocking. Ansah still found ways to impact on natural ability alone, enough so to earn defensive MVP honors, and he won't be facing All Pro left tackles on a weekly basis in the NFL; however I'd like to see the end result when his pass rush repertoire has been developed and the playing field is evened out and no longer slanted in the offensive tackle's favor.
     
  17. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Definitely. It's like any other analytic -- apply it properly, ask the right questions and marry it with traditional analysis. It's part of the picture, not the whole as I'm sure you well know.
     
  18. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    exactly. How many inexperienced 270 pound guys can line up all across the defensive line and hold their own while commanding extra attention. He was used how BYU needed him to be used, which wasn't as the edge rusher that half this board is obsessed with comparing his stats to. BYU didn't need to use him as a pass rusher with Van Noy as the rush linebacker often employed next to him IIRC, so it's no surprise to me that his development as a pass rusher is still in its early stage, but that doesn't mean he won't develop as a quality pass rusher if he's placed in that role and developed as such.
     
  19. Gunner

    Gunner Rock Hunter

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    If you are going to pick a guy early in the draft, then he best be able to beat those quality OTs. You don't draft a raw project in the first round in my opinion. I am sorry, but you guys are not going to get me to buy your man crush on him when my eyes are telling me a different story. If I am wrong and he ends up being a great player ... so be it brother :) Everyone of us has been wrong about players before and we will again. No harm in either of us sticking to our opinions
     
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  20. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Off the bat I would say Margus Hunt is a much better pass rusher than Ansah, specifically at beating OTs and turning the corner. Ansah ends up looking far more like a dancing bear during a pass rush, then disengages and looks to make something happen- after the initial pass rush failure. I really don't know of many novices at DE anyway- as to football novices, Menelik Watson is day in/day out a better prospect than Ansah, a complete player who regularly beats the man in front of him, as opposed to Ansah who lives off of the pursuit after regularly NOT beating the man in front of him, peeling off and looking to make something happen.

    You make it seem that Van Noy was supposed to be the only pass rusher for BYU- not the case. Ansah rushed the QB plenty, and got stonewalled plenty. He might have had other responsibilities, but he was an edge rusher. Just not a very good one.

    Your desire seems to be to carve out a niche for Ansah as an NFL DE who isn't a very good pass rusher- so be it. Personally I don't think that he is one or will become one. He has talent, he has value, but for what I want in a DE he just isn't it. Specifically for Miami, I think that what we need is a pass rusher to compliment and balance out Wake, I'm not much for the theory that it would be great to have one DE flush out the QB and the other waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces. You're a big fan of his, that's all well and good, he just doesn't have the skill set that I'm looking for.
     
  21. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Your comparison of Vernon Ghoulston is ridiculous...it's popular for people to use him as an example of a player rising up a draft board because he is a "workout warrior". Problem with that example is he had a sensational career at Ohio State.
     
  22. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I don't think the Gholston one is accurate at all, honestly. They are two different players.
     
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  23. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Unfortunately what you want in a right end doesn't seem to coincide with how Coyle uses his right end. IMO, outside of JJ Watt, Ansah is the ideal type of oversized, stout end to be utilized in Coyle's scheme, and a lot of what he did at BYU is similar to how Coyle used Odrick, except Ansah is an upgrade over Odrick who's probably better suited to play DT. With both of our starting DTs set to hit FA next year we could easily draft Ansah to become the right end of the future, give him 2013 to ease into the position, and let him take over in 2014 while Odrick moves inside to replace Starks where he's a better natural fit.
     
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  24. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    I always thought Gholston cared more about body building and his physique than football, going all the way back to high school when he had a body building first mentality IIRC.
     
  25. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    It's not even about the physique. Looking back on it, Gholston lacked any sort of instincts, hand usage and movement skills. He was stiff as a board and the odds of him becoming a quality player were slim to none because his hand usage was very poor. I remember Rich (Conuficus) voicing his concerns over it during the draft and a poster asking him if there were any chances of Gholston developing his hand usage. Rich's response was something to the effect of maybe if he has a kid and a new outlook on life. In other words, it wasn't going to happen.

    Regardless of what people say, Ezekiel Ansah's games do not show a lack of any of the above traits that were missing with Gholston. His hand usage is not great, that's true, but he's not near as bad as Gholston was.
     
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I saw every play, three times, I see what your saying to a degree, he still ran around and made plays, disrupted timing, and showed some instincts..

    I guess your saying that you think he should be a 2nd round pick as well, the context for the praise or the criticism needs to be noted.

    I was merely making a point on what makes this player thrive..I think you also have to understand I'm not lobbying for him at 12, I was merely debating some who are projecting him below where I project him..
     
  27. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    His situation was as confusing as I have ever witnessed, you could argue he lived off his brute strength in college...then you put on film and see him beating Joe Thomas and Jake Long. Hard situation too figure out, my only logical guess is once better OL coaches got film on him and exploited his weakness.

    I'll save the position change argument because if you are a good pass rusher you will Atleast show flashes be it at 3-4 OLB or 4-3DE.
     
  28. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    By the way, I don't have an issue with Ansah being valued as a late first, early-second round. I think that's the best value for him and the one that an argument can be made best for. It's where I would take him.
     
  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    When factoring in passes deflected [since their net result is as good as a sack for no yards], Ansah's combined sack/PD total was 13.5 vs JPP's 9.5. Just something to think about.
    Aldon Smith totaled 16.5 when he was healthy as a junior.
    JJ Watt: 15.
    DeMarcus Ware: 12
    Calais Campbell: 9.5
     
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  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That and he did not want it enough, this is also my issue with Pat White, and to a lesser extent Aaron Maybin, they have the physical tools but that fire to be great, to prove themselves, just is not really there imo.

    And this is where Ansah is, what is his makeup? Does he have that drive?

    Kraken Wake is the paradigm imo, once he looked to be done, he changed everything and lit a fire under his own *** and proved himself, no booze, no fast food, just total focus.

    There is such a huge difference b/t "a guy" and "a guy who is serious" that all of the metrics in the world could not expose it.
     
  31. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Anything earlier than Cleveland at 6 will be a surprise, anything later than Indy at 24 would be an even bigger surprise IMO.

    I can imagine more than a few DC's are in the front offices ear about what "they" can do with his pure ability....I'm just nervous Rex Ryan gets ahold of him.
     
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  32. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is a great discussion, btw, with a number of different views. It would really be interesting, with all the strong views, to see everyone in the discussion rank their DEs in order (say the top 10-12 in the draft) and with the round range where they think they should go.
     
  33. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    A quick cursory run down for me for 4-3 ends:
    1. Ansah- top 15
    2. Carradine- 20's to late 1st.
    3. Okafor- late 1st/early 2nd
    4. Werner- mid to late 1st
    5. Washington- late 2nd/early 3rd (but could end up playing like a mid 1st rounder)
    6. Datone Jones- late 1st/early 2nd
    7. Montgomery- mid 2nd
    8. Devin Taylor- 3rd
    9. Malliciah Goodman- 3rd
    10. Damontre Moore- 3rd
     
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  34. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I have to admit I'm a bit surprised Lemonier was that low, though it could have to do with his responsibilities outside of rushing the QB. I didn't watch that team enough to know.
     
  35. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I don't think it's the only reason, and I don;t think it projects the way you're thinking (if I'm understanding you correctly).

    If Hendrix had gone for classical traoining after he had already developed his own way of figuring out guitar, he wouldn;t lose that initial thing he had. Yeah, I compared Ansah to Jimi Hendrix. At least I didn;t compare him to a Centaur.

    What got Ansah by without football technique and polish has been his instinctive intelligence, and ability to creatively forecast plays. He won;t lose that. It was just glaringly on display because it was ALL he had to rely on (in part because of his background, in part because he may have been lazy about learning the sport properly).

    Now, if a coach CAN get his motivation and focus up in the mental part of the game, for practice and film and study, then it will only make him better. He reminds me of a kid I once tutored years ago who knew no English and had to sort out how to pass tests at school in America.. he had AMAZING mental resopurcefulness at spotting the patterns and whatnot. He literally passed grades speaking virtually zero English, let alone writing it. Then he learned English too.. and added to that amazing mental skill he already had, he did great.
     
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  36. Gunner

    Gunner Rock Hunter

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    And my original point addressed him being a possibility at #12 for us. I tend to agree with Alen that he is low 1st round/early 2nd round. That is where I'd feel his value is at because he is raw and I just can't justify drafting a guy that high who will need that much time to develop.
     
  37. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    As opposed to comparing him to JPP just because they both have "raw" talent....Whatever the hell that actually means.
     
  38. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    You don't know what raw talent is??

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
     
  39. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I believe its a false moniker that can be applied to somebody suggesting they might or just as likely, might not ever become better than they currently are.

    What's the difference between talent and raw talent?
    Every kid in this draft has talent. Some will eventually learn more and become solid pros.

    Suggesting he has "Raw talent" trying to differentiate him from other kids only suggests he really isn't that good at playing football. Will he eventually? I would suggest, once again, that every kid in the draft has as much a chance as anybody.
     
  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I don't think the word "raw" in the phrase "raw talent" actually describes the talent. I think it describes the degree of their experience at the appropriate playing level for where they are.
     

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