Rob Rang weighs in.

"jim1 wrote:

Bingo. It's not that I don't appreciate what Ansah brings to the table athletically, it's what the film shows- he gets stonewalled regularly by OTs, gets his a** handed to him, basically gives up even trying to rush the passer and waits at the LOS to either bat the ball down or peel off and pursue laterally. That's what bothers me- he fails at the prime objective, actually beating an OT to get to the QB. It's why I've said that I'd draft Menelik Watson before Ansah- Watson achieves at his prime directive, beating the man in front of him, while Ansah fails repeatedly. I have no idea how a player who fails so consistently at what he is supposed to do in a base sense is rated so highly. For those who disagree, look at the film. He's a pursuit player, not a guy to win battles at the LOS, bottom line. He's the dinner plate with loads of veg, but the meat is missing.

If Ansah is only a pursuit player who doesn't win battles at the LOS then why did so many opposing Defensive Coordinators frequently double him? Even against double teams he holds his own. For those who disagree, watch the film. If Ansah doesn't win battles at the LOS then everyone else at the Senior Bowl is a pile of dog ****. He was the defensive MVP of the top college all star game comprised of significantly more experienced players who have mostly been around the game since before high school. He was rarely lined up at 7 and 9 technique at BYU so obviously his pass rush elements are still in their developmental stage. He's essentially a white or yellow belt as a pass rusher yet you seem compelled to compare him to the standards of a significantly more experienced level, which is erroneous. It's like you take the technical aspect of the game for granted, as if it could be picked up during a weekend class, and as if the guys trying to stop Ansah haven't spent a greater number of years technically working on their skills.

Let's roll through Ansah's check list: he's an athletic, twitchy end who plays with a rare combination of power, leverage, strong hands, balance, coordination (including hand-eye), length, and an instinctual feel for the game, taking angles, and keeping his feet clean (including cut blocks), all the while is able to abruptly stop & redirect and finish with a tremendous closing burst. That's a top notch list of intangibles as far as a quality NFL pass rusher goes. It's a great list of intangibles to develop a strong & effective pass rush repertoire with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3mGBlGYLsQ

"ckparrothead wrote:

You're pretty much taking a snap shot of what Zeke Ansah (or anyone, really) had to be feeling about football at the VERY BEGINNING, and projecting that same feeling about the sport onto him 1100+ days later. No, I wouldn't have any fahking clue what AYO should look like or how I should play it, what I should look like playing it, etc. But if I planned on making millions of dollars playing it? You can damn well bet I'd know those things within 100 days, let alone 1000+ days. I'd be a god damn expert on the sport.

The reason I brought up Sean Smith is because we were talking about muscle memory and technique. The muscle memory and technique involved at corner is a whole lot different than the muscle memory and technique at wide receiver. Yes he would be familiar with football concepts from having played in high school and in college. But that doesn't mean he would have much advantage in terms of getting the technique for corner play down.

Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you on the mental aspect, at the end of the day.

If anything I'm really pissed off at Ansah because he has some amazing potential, but I doubt he reaches it.

I am on the fence as to whether I would even touch him in the first round... and again, I truly believe he could be one of the most disruptive D linemen in all of football... if he focused on it.

"ckparrothead wrote:

You're pretty much taking a snap shot of what Zeke Ansah (or anyone, really) had to be feeling about football at the VERY BEGINNING, and projecting that same feeling about the sport onto him 1100+ days later. No, I wouldn't have any fahking clue what AYO should look like or how I should play it, what I should look like playing it, etc. But if I planned on making millions of dollars playing it? You can damn well bet I'd know those things within 100 days, let alone 1000+ days. I'd be a god damn expert on the sport.

The reason I brought up Sean Smith is because we were talking about muscle memory and technique. The muscle memory and technique involved at corner is a whole lot different than the muscle memory and technique at wide receiver. Yes he would be familiar with football concepts from having played in high school and in college. But that doesn't mean he would have much advantage in terms of getting the technique for corner play down.

Look, where some people are impressed Ansah did as well as he has without applying himself, I think it's insane to tout that as a positive unless you have damned good reason to think the lightbulb has come on.

But coaches are arrogant. They will believe they can mold him and get the most from him. That's hubris.

"phinsational wrote:

If Ansah is only a pursuit player who doesn't win battles at the LOS then why did so many opposing Defensive Coordinators frequently double him? Even against double teams he holds his own. For those who disagree, watch the film. If Ansah doesn't win battles at the LOS then everyone else at the Senior Bowl is a pile of dog ****. He was the defensive MVP of the top college all star game comprised of significantly more experienced players who have mostly been around the game since before high school. He was rarely lined up at 7 and 9 technique at BYU so obviously his pass rush elements are still in their developmental stage. He's essentially a white or yellow belt as a pass rusher yet you seem compelled to compare him to the standards of a significantly more experienced level, which is erroneous. It's like you take the technical aspect of the game for granted, as if it could be picked up during a weekend class, and as if the guys trying to stop Ansah haven't spent a greater number of years technically working on their skills.

Let's roll through Ansah's check list: he's an athletic, twitchy end who plays with a rare combination of power, leverage, strong hands, balance, coordination (including hand-eye), length, and an instinctual feel for the game, taking angles, and keeping his feet clean (including cut blocks), all the while is able to abruptly stop & redirect and finish with a tremendous closing burst. That's a top notch list of intangibles as far as a quality NFL pass rusher goes. It's a great list of intangibles to develop a strong & effective pass rush repertoire with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3mGBlGYLsQ

I think where Ansah gets very scary as he develops, is moving INSIDE to nickel DT on passing downs. By his third year in this league he will be a terror inside, if used properly, coached well.. and if he gets his attitude improved about working at this as a profession.

I agree with Chris that it's like ten red flags that he doesn;t know jack squat about a game he could make millions from.

Todd, let's be honest though (because both you and I are in awe of this man's raw prowess and ability)... he has a ****ty first step. NOT a classical arc-neding pass rusher. And not going to win with a club move to get to the QB either.

The thing is, Ansah, paired with a guy like Wake, would be hell for an O-line to handle. You place Wake on the tackle with the slowest kicslide, and Ansah on the weaker tackle. Have fun.

"Bpk wrote:

Yes yes yes and no no no Chris. Yes for the risk and overvaluing. I would consider starting to look at Ansah aorund 25. No on the thinking it's just his strength and motor. Those are part of it. He quite simply has great instinct for diagnosing plays, sometimes in unconventional ways, and DISRUPTING them. He is a nightmare for blocking schemes because he is not going to be where he is 'supposed to be' as an American Football player. That ignorance means he doesn't seem to overthink things. He does what Alan Page so beautifully expressed by saying it seemed to him that the object was to disrupt the offense from being able to execute, and the best way to do that was to take the shortest path to where the offense wanted to go. Ansah does that very very well. He seems to have amazing instincts at figuring out what's GOING to happen, not just what's happening. Combined with what I think is the best SECOND THIRD and FOURTH steps of any D lineman in this draft and he could be terrifying to handle. Especially as the NFL moves to more spreads and less in-line power run offenses.

You're saying he disrupts plays because he lacks valid instincts. First off, I don't see it that way. Second, even if that were true it's not going to persist over time.

"Bpk wrote:

Todd, let's be honest though (because both you and I are in awe of this man's raw prowess and ability)... he has a ****ty first step. NOT a classical arc-neding pass rusher. And not going to win with a club move to get to the QB either.

The thing is, Ansah, paired with a guy like Wake, would be hell for an O-line to handle. You place Wake on the tackle with the slowest kicslide, and Ansah on the weaker tackle. Have fun.

There's a benefit to having the ability to develop into a pass rusher who doesn't have to rely on mostly running the arc like typical speed rushers do. It keeps him more in front of the action and in better position to make a play, clog passing lanes, bat down passes, sniff out screens, contain escaping QBs, stuff draws & delayed handoffs, and maintain better gap control vs the run. I agree, it's not the greatest first step, but IMO he's not the type of end who has to rely on an elite first step; however he has shown times where it can be good enough to get by on when factoring in the rest of his ability.

Personally I'd rather have a more complete package of an end like Ansah opposite Wake than another arc-bending type rusher b/c I'm not a fan of leaving passing & running lanes open for QBs to either pick us apart or scramble for easy yards on plays where our ends get little outside pressure.

I thought the Senior Bowl tape showed what he is, truth be told.

I have him as having beat his block on 9 of 32 pass blocks.

He beat Quessenberry and a chip block from Otten on the play where the QB scrambled to his side which helped him get free of Quessenberry because it changed the angles. That was the only time he went up against Quessenberry in pass rush.

He went up against Wagner 12 times and beat him 2 times. He went up against Justin Pugh 10 times and beat him 2 times. Kyle Juszczyk stoned him 2 times. He went up against tight ends in pass rush 7 times and beat them 2 times. He lost his practice reps against Jordan Mills and Xavier Nixon in practice and it's generally accepted he had a poor week of practice.

What I really liked is what he did against the run and the rollout. He stayed at home on 2 rollout passes where nobody blocked him and so he was able to pressure the passer 2 times that way. I had him actually challenged on run plays about 8 times and he won on 5 of those occasions. He also was able to chase down 2 plays and get into the mix from a motor standpoint, unblocked coming from the non play side.

He also tipped at least 1 pass IIRC, so I'd call that a win even if he wasn't able to get a pressure.

He'll probably end up in Buffalo or NY, and ironically the posters here who dislike Ansah as an option for Miami will grow to dislike him even more when he's playing for a divisional rival and wreaking havoc against our offense over the next decade.

"phinsational wrote:

He also tipped at least 1 pass IIRC, so I'd call that a win even if he wasn't able to get a pressure.

To me it's not a win unless someone lost. Justin Pugh did not lose that match up. He did well on it. It's the QB's job to make sure he's got a free passing lane.

I'm starting to sense that maybe Ansah isn't going to go high after all. I think the media buzz around him has died down since its crescendo around the time of the Combine, everyone being all misty eyed about how well he did at the Combine without even really training properly, etc. Now everyone's kind of settling in and looking at the fit and the matches and to me if the Jaguars pass on him at 2 then he might be in for a longer day because the Raiders have a similar player already in Lamarr Houston, the Eagles have plenty going on there, the Lions need more of an alpha pass rusher not necessarily a motor guy, between Sheard and Kruger the Browns seem full up unless they think of Ansah as a 3-4 DE. I'm not sure if the Cardinals would see him as a 3-4 OLB and they've got plenty of 3-4 DLs. The Bills are kind of stuck in a DE investment hangover, and the Jets need a different kind of player from Ansah. The Titans seem to have plenty going on at DE with Morgan and Wimbley. The Saints have Cameron Jordan who is a similar player. The Panthers don't need him at all. The Cowboys don't seem onto this position, for good reason. The Giants wouldn't be onto it. The Bears think they've got what they need opposite Peppers in Corey Wootton. The Rams are full up at the position with Long and Quinn.

Essentially if the Jaguars pass on him I think it comes down to the Chargers, Dolphins and Buccaneers.

"ckparrothead wrote:

To me it's not a win unless someone lost. Justin Pugh did not lose that match up. He did well on it. It's the QB's job to make sure he's got a free passing lane.

The North squad lost a completion on the designed screen b/c Pugh couldn't prevent Ansah from disrupting the passing lane, so I'd call that a win, myself, whereas an arc-running pass rusher would've immediately taken himself out of the play and opened up an easy completion. IMO Pugh was more responsible for clearing the passing lane than Nassib was for trying to find an open one; if he knows it's a screen to his side he could've at least tried to cut Ansah knowing he's always a threat to swat a pass.

"azfinfanmang wrote:

......
Ansah is everybody's darling, even though he got thrown around the vast majority of the season, and mostly by mediocre lineman. Reminds me of the over-hype Verne Ghoulston received, cept Ghoulston actually had a decent college career against top-their talent. I honestly wouldn't touch the kid in the 2nd much less the 1st. Hope the Jests chose him just ahead of us. :lol:

"ckparrothead wrote:

.......
I'm starting to sense that maybe Ansah isn't going to go high after all. I think the media buzz around him has died down since its crescendo around the time of the Combine, everyone being all misty eyed about how well he did at the Combine without even really training properly, etc. Now everyone's kind of settling in and looking at the fit and the matches and to me if the Jaguars pass on him at 2 then he might be in for a longer day because the Raiders have a similar player already in Lamarr Houston, the Eagles have plenty going on there, the Lions need more of an alpha pass rusher not necessarily a motor guy, between Sheard and Kruger the Browns seem full up unless they think of Ansah as a 3-4 DE. I'm not sure if the Cardinals would see him as a 3-4 OLB and they've got plenty of 3-4 DLs. The Bills are kind of stuck in a DE investment hangover, and the Jets need a different kind of player from Ansah. The Titans seem to have plenty going on at DE with Morgan and Wimbley. The Saints have Cameron Jordan who is a similar player. The Panthers don't need him at all. The Cowboys don't seem onto this position, for good reason. The Giants wouldn't be onto it. The Bears think they've got what they need opposite Peppers in Corey Wootton. The Rams are full up at the position with Long and Quinn.

Essentially if the Jaguars pass on him I think it comes down to the Chargers, Dolphins and Buccaneers.

Feels good to pat myself on the back every once in awhile...considering how much I have been screwing up lately, especially with stats (Does Grimes REALLY have 13 INT's????

Please please please don't let this kid go to the Phins. I just see another infamous WIP when we really need a PRTS (Player Ready To Start) with that number 12

"azfinfanmang wrote:

Feels good to pat myself on the back every once in awhile...considering how much I have been screwing up lately, especially with stats (Does Grimes REALLY have 13 INT's????

Please please please don't let this kid go to the Phins. I just see another infamous WIP when we really need a PRTS (Player Ready To Start) with that number 12

Works both ways, Jason Pierre-Paul was thought to be all hype. So don't bend that arm too much just yet sunshine.

"Da 'Fins wrote:

I'd rather have Carradine (and think we could probably get him at a cheaper pick - lower in the draft). Carradine is a productive and good player and his arms and hands look incredibly strong to me in the games I've seen him play (both live and then on videos).

I'd pass on he and Werner

Just not seeing the explosiviness

I'd pass on Carradine, and I would take Ansah over Mingo in a heart beat, if those were my choices.

"ckparrothead wrote:

Carradine won't last into the 2nd round let alone to pick 42.

I doubt that as well, at this point, but when I said later on - I meant trading down and selecting him, not waiting to the 2nd, if we were wanting a DE that is (I'd rather trade down than select Ansah at DE).

"ckparrothead wrote:

I don't know. The guy that did it did not include Ansah. I don't imagine he's high. Probably very low. I asked him to include Devin Taylor. No luck.

He has INDIRECT access to a program called STATS ICE which tallies all this type of stuff for organizations that pay mucho dinero for it. But the access is indirect and takes a long time to get it and so he's just stopped bothering to ask for more.

My own research on Devin Taylor suggests his stat could be as high (or low, I guess) as Alex Okafor's, especially in 2011.

Since I've now moved over here, I might as well comment on this. I'm the guy with indirect access, and CK is right. It's slow, painful and incomplete.

Disregarding that, I have the number of pressures and sacks for Ansah, but not the number of snaps (another incomplete piece of data...)

Ansah had 21 pressures and 4.5 sacks for a total of 25.5 total "pressures". BYU faced 378 passes last year, if we guess that Ansah rushed the passer on roughly 75% of those (total guess), that means he had 239 pass rush snaps.

That comes out to a snaps per pressure of about 11.37, which would put him 4th to last among the other pass rushers CK listed.

The lowest number of snaps any of those pass rushers had rushing the passer was Dion Jordan at 232 snaps. If Ansah rushed the passer only that many times, his SPP would be 9.18. 5th highest in the group, but still around average, nothing spectacular.

Hope that clears some things up. (And CK, sorry about not being able to get the Devin Taylor data to you, I don't even have what I need for a RB post)

I saw JPP in college and for a few years now with the NYG and I cant see the comparison to Ansah. Maybe a light version? Maybe in comparison to how raw they were/are? Werner is going to be a safer pick and Im not a huge fan there but I think there is a higher floor but lower ceiling.

Mingo doesnt do much for me at this point. I still like his teammate Sam Montgomery better based on where they figure to go and upside. Carradine and Okafor are the guys you look at in round 2 imo

I like Dion Jordan but I dont think we will be there for us at 12.

"Fin-Omenal wrote:

Works both ways, Jason Pierre-Paul was thought to be all hype. So don't bend that arm too much just yet sunshine.

Yeah, so was Verne Ghoulston.....there sunshine :up:

I honestly don't know what you have been watching in regards to Ziggy, but I see ZERO JPP in his game. None.

"padre31 wrote:

I'd pass on he and Werner

Just not seeing the explosiviness

I don't know about that. From what I've seen, Werner seems to have a great 1st step, some pretty violent hands and good closing speed.

"phinsational wrote:

If Ansah is only a pursuit player who doesn't win battles at the LOS then why did so many opposing Defensive Coordinators frequently double him? Even against double teams he holds his own. For those who disagree, watch the film. If Ansah doesn't win battles at the LOS then everyone else at the Senior Bowl is a pile of dog ****. He was the defensive MVP of the top college all star game comprised of significantly more experienced players who have mostly been around the game since before high school. He was rarely lined up at 7 and 9 technique at BYU so obviously his pass rush elements are still in their developmental stage. He's essentially a white or yellow belt as a pass rusher yet you seem compelled to compare him to the standards of a significantly more experienced level, which is erroneous. It's like you take the technical aspect of the game for granted, as if it could be picked up during a weekend class, and as if the guys trying to stop Ansah haven't spent a greater number of years technically working on their skills.

Let's roll through Ansah's check list: he's an athletic, twitchy end who plays with a rare combination of power, leverage, strong hands, balance, coordination (including hand-eye), length, and an instinctual feel for the game, taking angles, and keeping his feet clean (including cut blocks), all the while is able to abruptly stop & redirect and finish with a tremendous closing burst. That's a top notch list of intangibles as far as a quality NFL pass rusher goes. It's a great list of intangibles to develop a strong & effective pass rush repertoire with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3mGBlGYLsQ

I liked Ansah's pursuit and motor and strength in that video.

What I found interesting is that Cornelius Washington looked like he often got off the ball faster and deeper than Ansah on a number of pass rush plays (I know several plays Ansah was strongside and did more of read).

Not saying Washington is the same player but he was pretty quick off the ball and also seemed to be able to really get some push on the OT back into the QB. There might not be that enough of a difference to take Ansah at 12 (or mid round 1) over a kid like Washington in round 2.

"phinsational wrote:

There's a benefit to having the ability to develop into a pass rusher who doesn't have to rely on mostly running the arc like typical speed rushers do. It keeps him more in front of the action and in better position to make a play, clog passing lanes, bat down passes, sniff out screens, contain escaping QBs, stuff draws & delayed handoffs, and maintain better gap control vs the run. I agree, it's not the greatest first step, but IMO he's not the type of end who has to rely on an elite first step; however he has shown times where it can be good enough to get by on when factoring in the rest of his ability.

Personally I'd rather have a more complete package of an end like Ansah opposite Wake than another arc-bending type rusher b/c I'm not a fan of leaving passing & running lanes open for QBs to either pick us apart or scramble for easy yards on plays where our ends get little outside pressure.

Same old argument justifying Ansah's lousy pass rush skills, except this time you're taking it a step further by trying to show how it's actually a good thing. It isn't. He's a talented guy, but a lousy pass rusher. It is what it is.

"NUGap wrote:

Since I've now moved over here, I might as well comment on this. I'm the guy with indirect access, and CK is right. It's slow, painful and incomplete.

Disregarding that, I have the number of pressures and sacks for Ansah, but not the number of snaps (another incomplete piece of data...)

Ansah had 21 pressures and 4.5 sacks for a total of 25.5 total "pressures". BYU faced 378 passes last year, if we guess that Ansah rushed the passer on roughly 75% of those (total guess), that means he had 239 pass rush snaps.

That comes out to a snaps per pressure of about 11.37, which would put him 4th to last among the other pass rushers CK listed.

The lowest number of snaps any of those pass rushers had rushing the passer was Dion Jordan at 232 snaps. If Ansah rushed the passer only that many times, his SPP would be 9.18. 5th highest in the group, but still around average, nothing spectacular.

Hope that clears some things up. (And CK, sorry about not being able to get the Devin Taylor data to you, I don't even have what I need for a RB post)

To be fair, Ansah wasn't really used in a pass rushing role at BYU b/c that job understandably belonged to Kyle Van Noy, so this should be taken into consideration when comparing total pressures & sacks with the rest of the group. Ansah was used more as a closed end and along the interior than as an edge rusher; however during the senior bowl when playing on the edge I'd reckon to guess he totaled the greatest number of combined pressures/sacks.

"azfinfanmang wrote:

Yeah, so was Verne Ghoulston.....there sunshine :up:

I honestly don't know what you have been watching in regards to Ziggy, but I see ZERO JPP in his game. None.

That's quite an exaggeration. They both play with a rare blend of size, length, athleticism, coordination, power, and leverage..... and they both make plays that are atypical for a defensive lineman.