Religion = Bad?

"Fin D wrote:

I don't think religion should be attacked broadly. I mean go after specific transgressions like the priest/pedophile issue or cults or LDS' having children marry men.

Religion should be banished altogether. It's allowance thru supposed freedom is nothing more than an invitation for misplaced pride in ignorance and inequality completely bare of proof and evidence.

"Fin D wrote:

I think the better approach is to accentuate and promote logic, reasoning, science and critical thinking.

Agree. Although, all are counterintuitive to religious beliefs, and none of those mesh with the fantasies of the religious.

Looking forward to the new book by Dawkins, Outgrowing God.

"Carmen Cygni wrote:

Religion should be banished altogether. It's allowance thru supposed freedom is nothing more than an invitation for misplaced pride in ignorance and inequality completely bare of proof and evidence.

Agree. Although, all are counterintuitive to religious beliefs, and none of those mesh with the fantasies of the religious.

I'm saying if you want a religion free world, don't attack it in broad strokes like Dawkins and Harris do. Promote those other things...it will be far more effective.

"Carmen Cygni wrote:

That's incredibly short-sighted and an erroneous line of thought that pretends to elevate Christianity to some enlightened hierarchy of humankind. You're simply describing love and acts of love, and love is not exclusive to Christianity or any other religion. I know, myself included, many many atheists involved in social services, charitable work, counseling, etc. while also raising loving, respectful and educated children. What's disturbing is the religious thought that the only way someone can be kind and loving is the love/fear of some omnipotent supernatural being that's keeping tabs on your actions and behavior.

More specifically what I was describing earlier concerning religion's damage to society is in areas such as humankind's progress in equality, education, and science. Especially science, an area of verified, peer-reviewed study greatly effected by those that think a single "holy" book contains all the answers they really need to know, and the Earth which many treat as a dump and a temporary place of residence to rape of resources because their fantasy of a supernatural hero is going to create something else . . . precisely, just for them.

Anyone can do these deeds, but not everyone is. Whether the love of God resides in these individuals or a beautiful idea has inspired them, or something else, those belonging to the Christian religion are responsible for a great deal of good and of great benefit to many who live in this world.

Everyone could do this, everyone may know that they should do this, but it is those of a religious group that are doing it. Whatever the cause, it's fair to argue that this religion leads to great good, beyond what common understanding inspires.

Additionally, it's somewhat arrogant to take the actions of such people and then tell them that they are wrong about their own motives. Worse still to tell them what their motives are and that they are evil. There certainly those who do charitable acts seeking gain, but it's been my true experience that those individuals who are committed to serving others and making a difference in these ways are motivated out of love and compassion, not greed or fear. Of course, this takes us more into the anecdotal than the evidential. I would suggest reading and listening to the words of those who do such things and their explanations for why. Let them speak for themselves.

Regardless, though, to suggest that religion is an evil that the world be better without and then to ignore or dismiss the great good distinctive to it at least gives the impression of disingenuity. Be fair.

Now as to science and logic and reason it seems you do not know your history. For whatever press coverage is devoted to particular groups and individuals within Christianity that are dismissive of science, history can plainly testify to the contribution, through centuries, of Christianity to the preservation and advancement knowledge, reason and science. If this is news to you then please know that what I'm writing is not only sincere but a plain, if surprising, fact of history. I would encourage you to look into it. Christianity overall and essentially, in it's approach and proclamation, is not anti-science or reason. Rather it seeks to sharpen and harness all things giving them the inspiration of love. Christianity profoundly believes in, supports, and is founded upon a basis of truth and reason. I cannot give a defence of all these things here but it's not a difficult thing to discover and confirm for anyone who wants to look it up.

Let's be clear about the main point, though, you have simply spoken too strongly and gone too far. It's not that one must believe the premises of Christianity nor be wholly accepting of it, nor uncritical of it. The point is that to say that all religion is evil and the world would be better off without it is an extreme view. It goes too far and is not true.

"Fin D wrote:

I don't think religion should be attacked broadly. I mean go after specific transgressions like the priest/pedophile issue or cults or LDS' having children marry men.

I think the better approach is to accentuate and promote logic, reasoning, science and critical thinking.

I think you should read the book first before you characterize it as such, and please don't read that as a smug response, I can understand why you said what you said considering the title of the book. You may end up agreeing with it, and there's a large tinge of optimism and compassion throughout.

"invid wrote:

I think you should read the book first before you characterize it as such, and please don't read that as a smug response, I can understand why you said what you said considering the title of the book. You may end up agreeing with it, and there's a large tinge of optimism and compassion throughout.

True I should read it before commenting, but I wasn't;t basing what I said on the title, I was basing what I said on numerous talks I've seen Hitchens give.

Here's the thing I don't disagree with his stances on religion, I'm just saying I don't think his approach is effective for a goal of lessening religion's impact in the world.

His approach is really effective at making current atheists, say, "EXACTLY!!!!!!"

"Fin D wrote:

True I should read it before commenting, but I wasn't;t basing what I said on the title, I was basing what I said on numerous talks I've seen Hitchens give.

Here's the thing I don't disagree with his stances on religion, I'm just saying I don't think his approach is effective for a goal of lessening religion's impact in the world.

His approach is really effective at making current atheists, say, "EXACTLY!!!!!!"

There's a lot of logic, critical thinking, etc. exercised and promoted in the book, if anything it's a much more nuanced and mapped version of his professed views that made his public debates so popular. Like @8284 said earlier, however- when you apply those things through a religious lens, of course they're going to come across as attacks.

"Galant wrote:

Anyone can do these deeds, but not everyone is. Whether the love of God resides in these individuals or a beautiful idea has inspired them, or something else, those belonging to the Christian religion are responsible for a great deal of good and of great benefit to many who live in this world.

Everyone could do this, everyone may know that they should do this, but it is those of a religious group that are doing it. Whatever the cause, it's fair to argue that this religion leads to great good, beyond what common understanding inspires.

Additionally, it's somewhat arrogant to take the actions of such people and then tell them that they are wrong about their own motives. Worse still to tell them what their motives are and that they are evil. There certainly those who do charitable acts seeking gain, but it's been my true experience that those individuals who are committed to serving others and making a difference in these ways are motivated out of love and compassion, not greed or fear. Of course, this takes us more into the anecdotal than the evidential. I would suggest reading and listening to the words of those who do such things and their explanations for why. Let them speak for themselves.

Regardless, though, to suggest that religion is an evil that the world be better without and then to ignore or dismiss the great good distinctive to it at least gives the impression of disingenuity. Be fair.

Now as to science and logic and reason it seems you do not know your history. For whatever press coverage is devoted to particular groups and individuals within Christianity that are dismissive of science, history can plainly testify to the contribution, through centuries, of Christianity to the preservation and advancement knowledge, reason and science. If this is news to you then please know that what I'm writing is not only sincere but a plain, if surprising, fact of history. I would encourage you to look into it. Christianity overall and essentially, in it's approach and proclamation, is not anti-science or reason. Rather it seeks to sharpen and harness all things giving them the inspiration of love. Christianity profoundly believes in, supports, and is founded upon a basis of truth and reason. I cannot give a defence of all these things here but it's not a difficult thing to discover and confirm for anyone who wants to look it up.

Let's be clear about the main point, though, you have simply spoken too strongly and gone too far. It's not that one must believe the premises of Christianity nor be wholly accepting of it, nor uncritical of it. The point is that to say that all religion is evil and the world would be better off without it is an extreme view. It goes too far and is not true.

No one is arguing that those who do most of the world's charity work are probably affiliated with a religion in some respect, but the argument should be about capacity. Everyone has the capacity to do these deeds, without a god or not, and I'd argue doing it out of compassion for your fellow human beings would be a better reason to do it. You don't need a God to possess that compassion. The argument then, is how much BAD is done throughout the world, and how much of that would change without the pretense of religion?

Would there be as much homophobia, for instance? How many people were killed throughout history in holy wars? How many people are still being killed today on the basis of religion? Marginalized? Religion is constantly trying to play catch up with the general social and moral sentiment of the world, and often impedes its progress because BELIEFS (!) as Carmen had noted earlier.

The point is, we need to find an inspiration beyond a God to help our fellow man. Hopefully, when we do, the inspiration and religious bases that so many use to inflict pain on our fellow man will swiftly follow.

Also your point about Christianity and science must be looked at through a historical lens. Of course, religion was involved with science, as it was involved with every facet of human life after its introduction, for a long time. It was an immensely popular guide to the meaning of life, before science had made all of its truly significant advances.

"Galant wrote:

Anyone can do these deeds, but not everyone is. Whether the love of God resides in these individuals or a beautiful idea has inspired them, or something else, those belonging to the Christian religion are responsible for a great deal of good and of great benefit to many who live in this world.

Everyone could do this, everyone may know that they should do this, but it is those of a religious group that are doing it. Whatever the cause, it's fair to argue that this religion leads to great good, beyond what common understanding inspires.

As well as a many number of people, with no religious affiliations, are doing too. Many, in fact whom I know personally, who have dedicated their professional lives for the betterment of humanity (and convinced to do so not thru a tax-free business venture) by becoming clinicians, physicians, physicist, psychologist, psychiatrist, educationalists, and so forth. It's not beyond common understanding as if there is some higher power responsible for your good deedship, it's simply an understanding of being kind and caring to promote a better humanity.

"Galant wrote:

Additionally, it's somewhat arrogant to take the actions of such people and then tell them that they are wrong about their own motives. Worse still to tell them what their motives are and that they are evil. There certainly those who do charitable acts seeking gain, but it's been my true experience that those individuals who are committed to serving others and making a difference in these ways are motivated out of love and compassion, not greed or fear. Of course, this takes us more into the anecdotal than the evidential. I would suggest reading and listening to the words of those who do such things and their explanations for why. Let them speak for themselves.

Been there, done that as I was the son of a former preacher man. I was practically born and raised in Christianity for about 30 years of my life. It was the true actions and behaviors of many people in multiple churches over my life that lead me, and my father, to walk away from churches, religion, and ultimately the thought of a supernatural agent; the hypocrisy is astounding.

"Galant wrote:

Now as to science and logic and reason it seems you do not know your history. For whatever press coverage is devoted to particular groups and individuals within Christianity that are dismissive of science, history can plainly testify to the contribution, through centuries, of Christianity to the preservation and advancement knowledge, reason and science. If this is news to you then please know that what I'm writing is not only sincere but a plain, if surprising, fact of history. I would encourage you to look into it. Christianity overall and essentially, in it's approach and proclamation, is not anti-science or reason. Rather it seeks to sharpen and harness all things giving them the inspiration of love. Christianity profoundly believes in, supports, and is founded upon a basis of truth and reason. I cannot give a defence of all these things here but it's not a difficult thing to discover and confirm for anyone who wants to look it up.

That's nothing more than verbal vomit surrounded by typical religious circular talk. I really really implore you to provide the case of Christianity's interest for scientific and educational advancement, along with critical thinking outside of it's fragile bubble that was/is not done so thru monetary or fame gain. It's virtually impossible. Christians would not be able to believe what they believe if such factors were driven into play; faith ensures that. And please, for authenticity sake, avoid using the fraudulent awards given by the Templeton foundation.

"Galant wrote:

Let's be clear about the main point, though, you have simply spoken too strongly and gone too far. It's not that one must believe the premises of Christianity nor be wholly accepting of it, nor uncritical of it. The point is that to say that all religion is evil and the world would be better off without it is an extreme view. It goes too far and is not true.

As long as such ignorance persists, I will not have gone far enough . . .

talks/richard_dawkins_on_militant_atheism

"Carmen Cygni wrote:

Religion is evil, it's a detriment to humankind and our modern societies. Religion does not deserve any respect, to follow such atrocities requires being irrational and ignorant.

In that context I'm not seeing much difference between religions and human societies in general, including modern ones. Perhaps, especially modern ones. Who has the highest body count over the last decade, Christianity or the U.S. government? We do so love our tribes.

"Two Tacos wrote:

In that context I'm not seeing much difference between religions and human societies in general, including modern ones. Perhaps, especially modern ones. Who has the highest body count over the last decade, Christianity or the U.S. government? We do so love our tribes.

You can't be serious? Are you being sarcastic?

First, your assumption of my affinity for America is greatly misplaced. Next, your assumption that those in the highest places of government are not connected with religion is also done with profound error. There's rarely an elected official that does not profess their religious faith to the public in some form or fashion from the president, to supreme court justices, to congressmen and women, other government representatives and officials, etc.. Your statement originally concocted for contradiction is a fallacy as both Christianity and the US government are heavily intertwined.

The list goes on for days and days, but here's a few prominent figures to entertain for the time being. Ignoring your predetermined timeline, as I'll assume you're just to young to understand just how quickly a single decade passes, we'll hop back a few to the 60's (It was not that long ago, kids. You'll soon find out). Lyndon B Johnson, who was a member of the Christian church, was largely responsible for the Vietnam war which in retrospect was a grave mistake considering it's failure and the lives lost. Coming up to speed, both Bush Sr & Jr proclaimed Christianity and held it's most fundamental of beliefs in high regard. In the early 90's Bush Sr led the US to the Gulf war and in the 00's Bush Jr drove America into one of the largest of follies of all time with the Iraq war.

Stepping into other areas, such as lifetime appointments within the government, take wacko supreme court justice Antonin Scalia for instance, and his speech delivered to the University of Chicago Divinity School:

" . . . government, however you want to limit that concept, derives it's moral authority from god . . . Indeed, it seems to me that the more Christian a country is the less likely it is to regard the death penalty as immoral."

Hmm, yes, nothing says god's love like a human's judgement to death. How about his asinine assumption that some god is on his side, but for reasons unknown and nefarious, or not on others?:

"God has been very good to us. That we won the revolution was extraordinary. The Battle of Midway was extraordinary. I think one of the reasons God has been good to us is that we have done him honor. Unlike the other countries of the world that do not even invoke his name we do him honor. In presidential addresses, in Thanksgiving proclamations and in many other ways." Yikes, now that's extreme delusion.

A general survey of the military also shows the amount of religious people voluntarily engaged or willing to engage in violence and war. Only about 8,000 out of 1.4 million active duty members in the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force identify themselves as atheists, and another 1,800 say they are agnostic, according to the Defense Department. At minimum, and being conservative, that's a very strong 1 million who claim in some way that they are religious, yet view death and destruction as an answer over showing their god's love and compassion.

Again, that's hardly even the surface of religious nutjobs in the government who are directly responsible for deaths. Then take note of the some of the least religious countries in the world, like Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, and other countries of Europe and contemplate their involvement in wars. It's next to nil.

Now I'll leave you with this disturbing video, along with it's message and participants. Sadly, the US is just as guilty as other countries for brainwashing children into religion, war, and violence.

"Carmen Cygni wrote:

You can't be serious? Are you being sarcastic?

First, your assumption of my affinity for America is greatly misplaced. Next, your assumption that those in the highest places of government are not connected with religion is also done with profound error. There's rarely an elected official that does not profess their religious faith to the public in some form or fashion from the president, to supreme court justices, to congressmen and women, other government representatives and officials, etc.. Your statement originally concocted for contradiction is a fallacy as both Christianity and the US government are heavily intertwined.

The list goes on for days and days, but here's a few prominent figures to entertain for the time being. Ignoring your predetermined timeline, as I'll assume you're just to young to understand just how quickly a single decade passes, we'll hop back a few to the 60's (It was not that long ago, kids. You'll soon find out). Lyndon B Johnson, who was a member of the Christian church, was largely responsible for the Vietnam war which in retrospect was a grave mistake considering it's failure and the lives lost. Coming up to speed, both Bush Sr & Jr proclaimed Christianity and held it's most fundamental of beliefs in high regard. In the early 90's Bush Sr led the US to the Gulf war and in the 00's Bush Jr drove America into one of the largest of follies of all time with the Iraq war.

Stepping into other areas, such as lifetime appointments within the government, take wacko supreme court justice Antonin Scalia for instance, and his speech delivered to the University of Chicago Divinity School:

" . . . government, however you want to limit that concept, derives it's moral authority from god . . . Indeed, it seems to me that the more Christian a country is the less likely it is to regard the death penalty as immoral."

Hmm, yes, nothing says god's love like a human's judgement to death. How about his asinine assumption that some god is on his side, but for reasons unknown and nefarious, or not on others?:

"God has been very good to us. That we won the revolution was extraordinary. The Battle of Midway was extraordinary. I think one of the reasons God has been good to us is that we have done him honor. Unlike the other countries of the world that do not even invoke his name we do him honor. In presidential addresses, in Thanksgiving proclamations and in many other ways." Yikes, now that's extreme delusion.

A general survey of the military also shows the amount of religious people voluntarily engaged or willing to engage in violence and war. Only about 8,000 out of 1.4 million active duty members in the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force identify themselves as atheists, and another 1,800 say they are agnostic, according to the Defense Department. At minimum, and being conservative, that's a very strong 1 million who claim in some way that they are religious, yet view death and destruction as an answer over showing their god's love and compassion.

Again, that's hardly even the surface of religious nutjobs in the government who are directly responsible for deaths. Then take note of the some of the least religious countries in the world, like Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, and other countries of Europe and contemplate their involvement in wars. It's next to nil.

Now I'll leave you with this disturbing video, along with it's message and participants. Sadly, the US is just as guilty as other countries for brainwashing children into religion, war, and violence.

That's too many straw men to unpack. It doesn't seem like the context of this discussion is being kept post to post, or we are speaking slightly different languages with similar words that don't mean the same thing.

To me the US government is not a religious society, Members are, but there are explicit prohibitions like the first amendment. The majority of it's members identify as Christian, but few say that it's actions are those of Christianity. The USCMA was not called a Christian trade agreement. You don't seem to agree with this logic.

So, please give me an example of one of these modern societies that religion has no place in. If members having a religious affiliation disqualifies a society, then the only one I can think of was the Khmer Rouge. They forbade all religious practice.

"Two Tacos wrote:

To me the US government is not a religious society . . .

Perhaps Jeff Sharlet's investigative work is right about The Family.

“I wish I could say more about it,” President Ronald Reagan said in 1985, according to the Times, “but it’s working precisely because it is private.”

2 things shouldn't exist.

Anyone pushing their religion on a stranger.
Anyone who criticizes other religions while upholding theirs (as if its YOU and no one else)

Not sure which one of yahoo's this applies too, but this is fact.

We are all still slaves. Paying taxes is a wage slave.
But yes, it has always been evident that black people were pushed a step down. Racism is simply more corporate now.

Religion was simply another control tactic by a government /governing body.
The Vatican ruled the world. Kings and generals asked permission from the Vatican , as to who would win battles between countries.
If there's something out there, it has nothing to do with the silly stories in the Christian bible.

“The Power Worshippers” Explores the Dangerous World of Christian Nationalism

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/03/03/the-power-worshippers-explores-the-dangerous-world-of-christian-nationalism/

Is there not a off topic section to post things like this in?

"Etrius24 wrote:

Is there not a off topic section to post things like this in?

This thread is about Religion and was created in the Religion and Spirituality forum. Where would you like it posted? lol

(But off topic...you should have used "an" instead of "a" and you didn't need the word "in", either.)

No offense Dan

I am not going to spend time checking my post for spelling and or grammar if the topic is only religion... That is a waste of time.

"Etrius24 wrote:

No offense Dan

I am not going to spend time checking my post for spelling and or grammar if the topic is only religion... That is a waste of time.

Install Grammarly, it is free. I have it and I love it.

:shifty:

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Install Grammarly, it is free. I have it and I love it.

Dude,

The free version of Grammarly is crap. I can dissect sentence after sentence and find flaws if I want to take the time. ( Flaws that grammarly will not pick up on. ) Grammarly does not pick up on archaic words, or the passive voice. ( Just a couple of examples of things that it is usually best to avoid )

"Etrius24 wrote:

Dude,

The free version of Grammarly is crap. I can dissect sentence after sentence and find flaws if I want to take the time. ( Flaws that grammarly will not pick up on. ) Grammarly does not pick up on archaic words, or the passive voice. ( Just a couple of examples of things that it is usually best to avoid )

That takes effort. I am fine with free for random forum conversations

Not to drudge up an old thread, but there have been NUMEROUS scientific discoveries over recent years that prove man existing on this planet long before Genesis. In many cases, civilizations that were nearly or more technologically advanced than modern day Earth. Some instances even have 'scripture' associated with their existence that has been deemed heretical by the Catholic church and others. This is my #1 problem with established religion (raised southern baptist and to be racist...left all of that behind many years ago).

I believe we have/had a creator. I don't believe it's 'the God' depicted in the bible. Actually, I believe the bible depicts 2 or 3 entities as god, but doesn't separate them. I've spent countless hours reading through tons of ancient writings including the bible, dead sea scrolls, nag hammadi findings, other ancient religious-wrought texts...and the number one thing it has taught me is, nobody knows. My personal belief is more related to the gnostic and includes more interpretation of the universe's impact on 'life.'

I believe ALL of these texts have valuable information, but can't be transcribed to modern day accurately. There is no way to avoid losing a hell of a lot of meaning in the translation...we simply didn't exist back then so we don't know. Most of the meaning of these old/ancient scripture is in the abstract in my opinion. There was a lot of statements and claims that, taken on their face as translated today, were incredible or unbelievable, but when placed in the proper (current at the time) context, would carry a wholly different meaning.

That's our biggest problem IMO. We simply don't know. Religions are established, grown, supported and revered on a sliver of the real story. That sliver may be an insignificant portion of the whole, real truth, or it could be the basis of it...there is simply NO way to know, right now.

Regardless, society moves on, and festers into its ever-evolving state of the 'now.' Reflecting on history and using it as a teaching moment is crucial, dwelling on it is antithetical. Nobody alive today fully understands how people hundreds of years ago felt or viewed the world, themselves and others, we can only parse useful lessons from those times to improve our world going forward.

I believe in doing the right thing, whether anybody's watching or not, and have raised my kids to be the same. I will NEVER benefit myself at the detriment of others. Whether that includes treating others as you'd want them to treat you, following the law, and being strongly dedicated to maintaining a strong family fabric...some of these beliefs, early in life, were learned and fostered from the church (even though my family I grew up in was broken as hell the entire time), so I have to give credit where it's due (to some of the good folks in the churches I attended), but I can't ascribe to any man-made established religion today. Too many tenets that aren't contextually accurate to the extent they could be proven.

I'll keep reading and trying to enlighten myself until I die though...religion, in my opinion, gets in the way of that.

"PhinFan1968 wrote:

Not to drudge up an old thread, but there have been NUMEROUS scientific discoveries over recent years that prove man existing on this planet long before Genesis. In many cases, civilizations that were nearly or more technologically advanced than modern day Earth. Some instances even have 'scripture' associated with their existence that has been deemed heretical by the Catholic church and others. This is my #1 problem with established religion (raised southern baptist and to be racist...left all of that behind many years ago).

I believe we have/had a creator. I don't believe it's 'the God' depicted in the bible. Actually, I believe the bible depicts 2 or 3 entities as god, but doesn't separate them. I've spent countless hours reading through tons of ancient writings including the bible, dead sea scrolls, nag hammadi findings, other ancient religious-wrought texts...and the number one thing it has taught me is, nobody knows. My personal belief is more related to the gnostic and includes more interpretation of the universe's impact on 'life.'

I believe ALL of these texts have valuable information, but can't be transcribed to modern day accurately. There is no way to avoid losing a hell of a lot of meaning in the translation...we simply didn't exist back then so we don't know. Most of the meaning of these old/ancient scripture is in the abstract in my opinion. There was a lot of statements and claims that, taken on their face as translated today, were incredible or unbelievable, but when placed in the proper (current at the time) context, would carry a wholly different meaning.

That's our biggest problem IMO. We simply don't know. Religions are established, grown, supported and revered on a sliver of the real story. That sliver may be an insignificant portion of the whole, real truth, or it could be the basis of it...there is simply NO way to know, right now.

Regardless, society moves on, and festers into its ever-evolving state of the 'now.' Reflecting on history and using it as a teaching moment is crucial, dwelling on it is antithetical. Nobody alive today fully understands how people hundreds of years ago felt or viewed the world, themselves and others, we can only parse useful lessons from those times to improve our world going forward.

I believe in doing the right thing, whether anybody's watching or not, and have raised my kids to be the same. I will NEVER benefit myself at the detriment of others. Whether that includes treating others as you'd want them to treat you, following the law, and being strongly dedicated to maintaining a strong family fabric...some of these beliefs, early in life, were learned and fostered from the church (even though my family I grew up in was broken as hell the entire time), so I have to give credit where it's due (to some of the good folks in the churches I attended), but I can't ascribe to any man-made established religion today. Too many tenets that aren't contextually accurate to the extent they could be proven.

I'll keep reading and trying to enlighten myself until I die though...religion, in my opinion, gets in the way of that.

Wow! To reopen a 15 month old, dead thread with such a passionate, hurting post is very powerful. I wish we could sit across from each other and talk. I'm sure your story is both terrifying and heart wrenching. I would be honored to hear it.

My family had its dark closets and dysfunctional spots. My Mom was a prescription junkie/drunk who once took me for an unnecessary surgery so she could carry on an affair with the surgeon. I get it. I know how I felt, I can only imagine how you felt/still feel.

Yet in my life, the Christian faith made/makes sense. Perhaps I have a pre-enlightenment soul because its "facts" and "contradictions" never bothered me. I felt/still feel God through the Holy Spirit in my life as a real presence. I am certainly not a mystic but I know that presence to be real. And I feel God's love. Certainly sometimes more than others but always there.

It tears at my soul to hear folks proclaim a Christ through their political speech that I utterly do no recognize. Racist, Sexist, hateful! I pray, "God, save me from the people on 'my side!'"

I respect your struggle, PF68. I pray you find healing and peace.

As to the others in the background of this thread, I am sorry there is so much anger at faith in general and the Christian faith in particular. Sadly, we have done much and are still doing much to earn that anger and contempt. Yet, there are some of us out here who are trying to present a different face. A more compassionate face. More the face of the Jesus we see, follow, and are loved by. I wish all of you peace as well.