Religion = Bad?

There's a lot of logic, critical thinking, etc. exercised and promoted in the book, if anything it's a much more nuanced and mapped version of his professed views that made his public debates so popular. Like @Carmen Cygni said earlier, however- when you apply those things through a religious lens, of course they're going to come across as attacks.

 

No one is arguing that those who do most of the world's charity work are probably affiliated with a religion in some respect, but the argument should be about capacity. Everyone has the capacity to do these deeds, without a god or not, and I'd argue doing it out of compassion for your fellow human beings would be a better reason to do it. You don't need a God to possess that compassion. The argument then, is how much BAD is done throughout the world, and how much of that would change without the pretense of religion?

Would there be as much homophobia, for instance? How many people were killed throughout history in holy wars? How many people are still being killed today on the basis of religion? Marginalized? Religion is constantly trying to play catch up with the general social and moral sentiment of the world, and often impedes its progress because BELIEFS (!) as Carmen had noted earlier.

The point is, we need to find an inspiration beyond a God to help our fellow man. Hopefully, when we do, the inspiration and religious bases that so many use to inflict pain on our fellow man will swiftly follow.

Also your point about Christianity and science must be looked at through a historical lens. Of course, religion was involved with science, as it was involved with every facet of human life after its introduction, for a long time. It was an immensely popular guide to the meaning of life, before science had made all of its truly significant advances.

 

As well as a many number of people, with no religious affiliations, are doing too. Many, in fact whom I know personally, who have dedicated their professional lives for the betterment of humanity (and convinced to do so not thru a tax-free business venture) by becoming clinicians, physicians, physicist, psychologist, psychiatrist, educationalists, and so forth. It's not beyond common understanding as if there is some higher power responsible for your good deedship, it's simply an understanding of being kind and caring to promote a better humanity.

Been there, done that as I was the son of a former preacher man. I was practically born and raised in Christianity for about 30 years of my life. It was the true actions and behaviors of many people in multiple churches over my life that lead me, and my father, to walk away from churches, religion, and ultimately the thought of a supernatural agent; the hypocrisy is astounding.

That's nothing more than verbal vomit surrounded by typical religious circular talk. I really really implore you to provide the case of Christianity's interest for scientific and educational advancement, along with critical thinking outside of it's fragile bubble that was/is not done so thru monetary or fame gain. It's virtually impossible. Christians would not be able to believe what they believe if such factors were driven into play; faith ensures that. And please, for authenticity sake, avoid using the fraudulent awards given by the Templeton foundation.

As long as such ignorance persists, I will not have gone far enough . . .

 

In that context I'm not seeing much difference between religions and human societies in general, including modern ones. Perhaps, especially modern ones. Who has the highest body count over the last decade, Christianity or the U.S. government? We do so love our tribes.

 

You can't be serious? Are you being sarcastic?

First, your assumption of my affinity for America is greatly misplaced. Next, your assumption that those in the highest places of government are not connected with religion is also done with profound error. There's rarely an elected official that does not profess their religious faith to the public in some form or fashion from the president, to supreme court justices, to congressmen and women, other government representatives and officials, etc.. Your statement originally concocted for contradiction is a fallacy as both Christianity and the US government are heavily intertwined.

The list goes on for days and days, but here's a few prominent figures to entertain for the time being. Ignoring your predetermined timeline, as I'll assume you're just to young to understand just how quickly a single decade passes, we'll hop back a few to the 60's (It was not that long ago, kids. You'll soon find out). Lyndon B Johnson, who was a member of the Christian church, was largely responsible for the Vietnam war which in retrospect was a grave mistake considering it's failure and the lives lost. Coming up to speed, both Bush Sr & Jr proclaimed Christianity and held it's most fundamental of beliefs in high regard. In the early 90's Bush Sr led the US to the Gulf war and in the 00's Bush Jr drove America into one of the largest of follies of all time with the Iraq war.

Stepping into other areas, such as lifetime appointments within the government, take wacko supreme court justice Antonin Scalia for instance, and his speech delivered to the University of Chicago Divinity School:

" . . . government, however you want to limit that concept, derives it's moral authority from god . . . Indeed, it seems to me that the more Christian a country is the less likely it is to regard the death penalty as immoral."

Hmm, yes, nothing says god's love like a human's judgement to death. How about his asinine assumption that some god is on his side, but for reasons unknown and nefarious, or not on others?:

"God has been very good to us. That we won the revolution was extraordinary. The Battle of Midway was extraordinary. I think one of the reasons God has been good to us is that we have done him honor. Unlike the other countries of the world that do not even invoke his name we do him honor. In presidential addresses, in Thanksgiving proclamations and in many other ways." Yikes, now that's extreme delusion.

A general survey of the military also shows the amount of religious people voluntarily engaged or willing to engage in violence and war. Only about 8,000 out of 1.4 million active duty members in the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force identify themselves as atheists, and another 1,800 say they are agnostic, according to the Defense Department. At minimum, and being conservative, that's a very strong 1 million who claim in some way that they are religious, yet view death and destruction as an answer over showing their god's love and compassion.

Again, that's hardly even the surface of religious nutjobs in the government who are directly responsible for deaths. Then take note of the some of the least religious countries in the world, like Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, and other countries of Europe and contemplate their involvement in wars. It's next to nil.

Now I'll leave you with this disturbing video, along with it's message and participants. Sadly, the US is just as guilty as other countries for brainwashing children into religion, war, and violence.

 

That's too many straw men to unpack. It doesn't seem like the context of this discussion is being kept post to post, or we are speaking slightly different languages with similar words that don't mean the same thing.

To me the US government is not a religious society, Members are, but there are explicit prohibitions like the first amendment. The majority of it's members identify as Christian, but few say that it's actions are those of Christianity. The USCMA was not called a Christian trade agreement. You don't seem to agree with this logic.

So, please give me an example of one of these modern societies that religion has no place in. If members having a religious affiliation disqualifies a society, then the only one I can think of was the Khmer Rouge. They forbade all religious practice.

 

Perhaps Jeff Sharlet's investigative work is right about The Family.

“I wish I could say more about it,” President Ronald Reagan said in 1985, according to the Times, “but it’s working precisely because it is private.”

 

2 things shouldn't exist.

Anyone pushing their religion on a stranger.
Anyone who criticizes other religions while upholding theirs (as if its YOU and no one else)


Not sure which one of yahoo's this applies too, but this is fact.

 

We are all still slaves. Paying taxes is a wage slave.
But yes, it has always been evident that black people were pushed a step down. Racism is simply more corporate now.

 

Religion was simply another control tactic by a government /governing body.
The Vatican ruled the world. Kings and generals asked permission from the Vatican , as to who would win battles between countries.
If there's something out there, it has nothing to do with the silly stories in the Christian bible.

 

“The Power Worshippers” Explores the Dangerous World of Christian Nationalism

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com...the-dangerous-world-of-christian-nationalism/

 

Is there not a off topic section to post things like this in?

 

No offense Dan

I am not going to spend time checking my post for spelling and or grammar if the topic is only religion... That is a waste of time.

 

Install Grammarly, it is free. I have it and I love it.

 

Dude,

The free version of Grammarly is crap. I can dissect sentence after sentence and find flaws if I want to take the time. ( Flaws that grammarly will not pick up on. ) Grammarly does not pick up on archaic words, or the passive voice. ( Just a couple of examples of things that it is usually best to avoid )

 

That takes effort. I am fine with free for random forum conversations

 

Not to drudge up an old thread, but there have been NUMEROUS scientific discoveries over recent years that prove man existing on this planet long before Genesis. In many cases, civilizations that were nearly or more technologically advanced than modern day Earth. Some instances even have 'scripture' associated with their existence that has been deemed heretical by the Catholic church and others. This is my #1 problem with established religion (raised southern baptist and to be racist...left all of that behind many years ago).

I believe we have/had a creator. I don't believe it's 'the God' depicted in the bible. Actually, I believe the bible depicts 2 or 3 entities as god, but doesn't separate them. I've spent countless hours reading through tons of ancient writings including the bible, dead sea scrolls, nag hammadi findings, other ancient religious-wrought texts...and the number one thing it has taught me is, nobody knows. My personal belief is more related to the gnostic and includes more interpretation of the universe's impact on 'life.'

I believe ALL of these texts have valuable information, but can't be transcribed to modern day accurately. There is no way to avoid losing a hell of a lot of meaning in the translation...we simply didn't exist back then so we don't know. Most of the meaning of these old/ancient scripture is in the abstract in my opinion. There was a lot of statements and claims that, taken on their face as translated today, were incredible or unbelievable, but when placed in the proper (current at the time) context, would carry a wholly different meaning.

That's our biggest problem IMO. We simply don't know. Religions are established, grown, supported and revered on a sliver of the real story. That sliver may be an insignificant portion of the whole, real truth, or it could be the basis of it...there is simply NO way to know, right now.

Regardless, society moves on, and festers into its ever-evolving state of the 'now.' Reflecting on history and using it as a teaching moment is crucial, dwelling on it is antithetical. Nobody alive today fully understands how people hundreds of years ago felt or viewed the world, themselves and others, we can only parse useful lessons from those times to improve our world going forward.

I believe in doing the right thing, whether anybody's watching or not, and have raised my kids to be the same. I will NEVER benefit myself at the detriment of others. Whether that includes treating others as you'd want them to treat you, following the law, and being strongly dedicated to maintaining a strong family fabric...some of these beliefs, early in life, were learned and fostered from the church (even though my family I grew up in was broken as hell the entire time), so I have to give credit where it's due (to some of the good folks in the churches I attended), but I can't ascribe to any man-made established religion today. Too many tenets that aren't contextually accurate to the extent they could be proven.

I'll keep reading and trying to enlighten myself until I die though...religion, in my opinion, gets in the way of that.

 

Thanks OPP, but I'm in a good place, comfortable with myself and my thoughts on the world and family. It sounds like you have many of the same types of experiences as a kid that I had, and have also moved on. I forgave everybody in my family back home for everything LONG ago, but its not forgotten nor are the lessons learned from it. I'm still cordial with the few family I have left that are decent and not deeply ingrained in that world of alcoholism, drug addiction/dealing, prostitution, crime, fraud, etc haha. Sadly, it's very few. But they chose their path...and I chose mine. Freedom after all haha.

My story was terrifying and heart-wrenching when I was a child...but that's long done and I've moved well beyond it, and I don't hate anybody for it, it was just the hand I was dealt, so I got a new dealer. Have to give a lot of credit to many of the leaders I had in the Navy over my 22 years. That period proved far more foundational to who I am as a person, than my upbringing did. Not everybody in the military is great people, but there are plenty there, and luckily I had the privilege of working with several. My in-laws (fairly devout Catholics) too. From day one they treated me as one of their own, and held me to their same standard...worked wonders.

I respect you for your beliefs and faith and would never 'judge' you negatively for seeing things different than I do. You seem like a great guy regardless if you're Christian or not. Judging somebody by their religious belief is as bad as judging people by their color/gender/etc. Actions matter, and I've seen nothing but very fair, thoughtful, respectful representation of yourself on these forums.

My belief comes down to simple ignorance...ignorance to the whole picture and what I believe to be very crucial, foundational, missing pieces, in that there's a hell of a lot more to the story than any of us know. So the best I can do is do what I can to do right by myself and my family, not dump on others in the process, and keep trying to learn. Never-ending process, as you know. Like I said, I believe there is a 'creator' or architect of this universe...I just don't believe we truly grasp that entity's impact, and probably never will. I also believe we don't know so much, not because the evidence isn't there, but because we don't have the capacity to put it all together.

 

Religion today is teaching in their schools that it is a sin to be gay..meaning you will go to hell.

How do you think a teenager who loves and believes in god, who knows their gay from an early age feels about that ?

Tell you how they feel… very very sad, like something is seriously wrong with them, so, they kill themselves, a lot.

There are so many things wrong with religion and for the other side for people like our own Chap so many things right.

 

It's funny DJ, you and I got banned many years ago while arguing over this exact topic. I definitely don't want to repeat that experience, but I did want to share a little bit of my life's story pertaining to that conversation.

I have a 24 year old bipolar daughter- she was maybe 17 when you/I argued last? Not long after our conversation, my daughter began "hanging out" with another girl to the point that they were inseparable. That friendship fell apart though after accusations of them being more than friends surfaced, and my kid didn't get over that for years. In some ways, she's still not over it and will talk about her friend Katherine.

After that, my kid jumped into a relationship with a man and got married super young at 19. It was a huge mistake since she was so immature (plus the mental illness), and the marriage survived almost two years- they were horrible to each other. She left her husband for another woman and bounced from bad relationship to bad relationship, all with women but occasionally fooling around with men as well. Today, my daughter is living with a girlfriend of about 2 years and they are happy together, but my daughter wants to transition to a man.

I am a devout Christian and my faith has not wavered over the past decade, but my understanding of the Bible and what Christians are called to do has definitely changed. Sin is sin, and I would react the same to my older daughter fooling around with a girl or a guy. Pre-marriage, it's not supposed to happen in any relationship.

But there's a 2nd side to that coin, in that we're not supposed to judge others unless we wish to be judged. As a parent, sure, I'm expected to teach my kids right from wrong. But we're all sinners in the eyes of God and we repent to Him. So many family members have criticized my older daughter and cut her out of their life because of her lifestyle decisions, which is just as sinful as homosexuality.

The book of Romans talks about that directly- Jews that know the word of God, that pray to God, yet ignored God's commandment not to judge others (in this particular case, it was a trial over homosexuality). So which is the worse sin? Those who know nothing of God, or the devout passing judgement...when they're commanded not to judge? And its the same thing in today's world; we find more and more things to judge each other on every single day and all it does it push us further apart.

I wrote all of that out to say this- some Christians may judge homosexuals and reference the 'abomination' verses of the Old Testament, but the Bible was not designed to be weaponized against anyone. We're not supposed to judge...it's that simple. The Lord's Prayer even references it directly- "Forgive us our tresspasses (which means 'our wrongs' or 'our sins'), as we forgive those who trespass against us." You don't receive forgiveness when you refuse to forgive others.

In my older daughter's case, I have learned a lot of patience and humility over the past 8-10 years. While I still don't agree with her sexual orientation, we do go to church together now and I am one of her biggest defenders in the world. As a father, my job is to love my kids regardless whether they're right or wrong, gay or straight. She knows my views on being gay, but our other family members also know my views on judging my daughter and acting like she's somehow lesser.

God loves all of us equally, we're all His children. And we're all sinners as well. It would be wonderful if the world (Christians included) could realize that instead of grabbing a random verse and using it as a sword to uphold their viewpoints.