1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Rating the NFL draft prospects: Defensive linemen

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by jim1, Apr 22, 2013.

  1. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    CORNELIUS WASHINGTON, Georgia (6-4, 263, 4.55, 3) - Blew out the combine in the 40, vertical jump (39), broad jump (10-6) and bench press (36 reps). "You couldn't ask for more in the testing end of it," one scout said. "Forward player. Can be dynamic as a pass rusher." Never found a home in the Bulldogs' 3-4 but looked like a million bucks at the Senior Bowl as a 4-3 DE. "The 3-4 teams shouldn't even waste a minute on him," another scout said. "He's got no chance as a 3-4 backer and he's not big enough to be a five-technique. But this guy will have a better pro career than (Georgia teammate) Jarvis Jones and he had half a sack and the other guy had 14½ last year." Started 25 of 51 games (14 LB, 11 DE), finishing with 76 tackles (17 for loss) and 10½ sacks. "He doesn't make any plays because his instincts are horrible," a third scout said. "He's pretty now. Looks the part. But his motor is inconsistent and he just doesn't do a whole lot. He could be (a bust)."

    http://www.jsonline.com/sports/top-defensive-linemen-in-nfl-draft-rt9i5la-204028711.html
     
  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,865
    154,274
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    That's pretty much exactly what I think of Cornelius Washington. It's why I've been comparing him to Mark Anderson this whole time instead of a more complete and consistent player like a Cliff Avril.
     
  3. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    The Georgia DEs are problematic imo. Washington has ludicrous physical talent, and just awful production- I can only blame so much of that on bad coaching. I think that the writer nailed it in saying that "his instincts are horrible". Watching him in the regular season film was a head scratcher, kind of like watching Ansah pass rush during the regular season.

    Jarvis Jones has kind of a weird style imo, and I remember watching him and having a hard time trying to judge his speed. Given the Brandon Spikes-esque time at his pro day, the answer appears to be "not so fast".

    Both players are boom/bust imo- Washington's talent/production ratio is nauseating, and Jones, on top of the other concerns, would be the slowest OLB taken in the 1st round that I can recall, if he does indeed go there.

    For all the problems that I have with Ansah, he does show some signs of heady play, some deception to his game. Washington hasn't shown me any of that- what a shame, because he is one talented athlete. Boom/bust all the way.
     
  4. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    What round reps value for him? 3rd?
     
  5. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    NFLDS has him 3-4th round and 101st overall now.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,865
    154,274
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Right now Cornelius Washington is a one-trick pony. That's how he managed to stand out at the Senior Bowl, both practices and game. But that one trick is pretty good and hard to defend for offenses. The key is getting him on the field in situations where he can use that one trick, and keeping him out of situations where he has to do all the other stuff that made him look like such a mediocre football player at Georgia.
     
  7. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Well, assuming that the one trick is beating OTs and pressuring QBs, at least the one trick coincides with our pass rushing needs.

    Washington is one heck of an athlete, I just wish that he showed more on regular season film. When a player has off the charts physical ability and piss poor production (1/2 sack, around 20 tackles on the year) something has to give. The thing is, as you previously mentioned he had a good week of practice and a good game at the Senior Bowl. The short version of all this is what one would expect of a player when outstanding talent meets lousy production- boom or bust.
     
  8. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

    40,429
    22,542
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    Cornelius Washington has possibly the sickest combination of power/explosion numbers (the sum of the player's vertical, broad jump, and bench) + 10 yard split of the past 10 years, if not longer. Anything over 70 is outstanding. 80 and up is flat out freakish. Only 4 guys since 2005 have scored above 80. The underlying ability is there to easily be a 10+ sack guy.


    Washington's power/explosion number= 85.6 & 1.60 10 yard.
    (39 vertical + 10'08 broad + 36 bench)


    Cam Wake
    : 76.3 & 1.63 10 yard. (but currently is likely in the 80-85 neighborhood as his strength has significantly increased)

    DeMarcus Ware: 75.7 & 1.62 10 yard
    Nick Perry: 83.8 & 1.51 (38.5, 10'04, 35)
    JJ Watt: 80.0 & 1.64 10 yard. (37 vertical + 10'00 broad + 34 bench)
    Michael Johnson: 77.1 & 1.56
    Geno Atkins: 76.8 & 1.68
    Olivier Vernon: 75.6 & 1.63
    Ryan Kerrigan: 74.6 & 1.61 10 yard
    Connor Barwin: 72.1 & 1.53 10 yard
    Chandler Jones: 72.0 & 1.66
    Brandon Graham: 71.6 & 1.61
    Melvin Ingram: 71.5 & 1.62


    Margus Hunt: 82.5 & 1.63
    Jamie Collins: 72.0 & 1.58
    Sheldon Richardson: 71.6 & 1.68
    Corey Lemonier: 70.0 & 1.56
    Bjoern Werner: 66.2 & 1.67
    Damontre Moore: 64.6 & 1.72 (shouts bust)


    Some rush LBs/rush ends lack great strength but have phenomenal explosion numbers to get after the QB like Matthews & Miller.
    Clay Matthews: 68.5 & 1.49 10 yard. (35.5 vertical + 10'01 broad + 23 bench)
    Von Miller: 68.5 & 1.57. (37 vertical + 10'06 broad + 21 bench)
    Robert Quinn: 68.4 & 1.61 (34 vert, 10'05 broad, 24 bench)
    Bruce Irvin: 66.7 & 1.55 (33.5 vertical + 10'03 + 23 bench)
    Aldon Smith: 64.3 & 1.66 (34.5 vert, 9'10, 20 bench)

     
    BuckeyeKing likes this.
  9. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    And yet he only had half of a sack his Senior year. Ergo the problem, his massive athletic talent combined with massive underachievement. It's not going to get easier in the NFL, it's going to get harder. If he couldn't feast on college quality OTs, then he has a lot to prove at the NFL level, regardless of how his measurables are analyzed and presented.
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,865
    154,274
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    He's a high speed player. He needs to be moving at high speeds to do his damage. He's so good at rushing the passer speed to power because of that explosiveness. But he's not good in very many other ways. I don't know that I consider him "boom or bust". I consider him, "is what he is".

    Devin Taylor is more "boom or bust".
     
  11. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    I can only comment as to the times I saw these players on TV and the additional film that I watched, and I would consider Washington the bigger boom/bust prospect. Based on measurables he's a top 10 pick, based on production he seems undraftable and destined for arena football. Seriously, a guy that big, fast and strong and only one half of a sack on the year and around 20 tackles? That's just awful.

    He shows horrendous instincts on film and he reeks of being a workout warrior. That being said, what's confusing is that he looked pretty darned good at the Senior Bowl game and by most accounts the practices as well.- In terms of what I'm looking for, a legitimate pass rusher, he looked far better in the practices than Ansah and in that regard better in the game, a more legitimate pass rusher with read/react ability as well.

    That's the dilemma- I pretty much liked what I saw of and heard about Washington at the SB, hated what I saw of him during the year. And that is a huge warning sign. I can't think of a bigger boom/bust player, maybe Cordarelle Patterson.
     
  12. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

    40,429
    22,542
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    I guess you're forgetting Georgia runs a 3-4 and had Jarvis Jones & Jordan Jenkins as the OLBs with Washington used mostly at end and rarely as an edge rusher?

    You have this same perception problem with Ziggy Ansah for some odd reason even though BYU also runs a 3-4 with Ansah stepping into action at DLINE after Eathyn Manumaleuna, BYU's starting LDE and the team's most versatile down lineman, was lost to injury. Their starting 3-4 OLBs were Kyle Van Noy (the team's PRIMARY pass rusher) and Spencer Hadley, not Ansah.

    Here's a pertinent quote by BYU's defensive line coach, Steve Kaufusi, about Ansah and how they would use him after being thrust into action.
    You see that bold part. Sorry but it's ridiculous that you blame Ansah for not being a better pass rusher at this stage when that's clearly not the role BYU had in mind for him. Not to mention BYU also lost starting RDE Ian Dunlan for the last 5 games, so Ziggy's play & versatility at end & tackle was even more crucial. However, there were no injuries to starting 34 OLBs, so there was zero reason for BYU to develop Ansah as a pass rusher ahead of making him reliable at 34 end and tackle, especially when he had enough natural ability to disrupt the passing game w/o BYU having to take precious time away from developing him at end & tackle since that's where he was needed most.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,865
    154,274
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I often have a fundamental disagreement with how people generally attach the "boom/bust" and/or "high ceiling/low floor" labels to prospects.

    I think that is what is going on here.

    I feel like I know what Cornelius Washington brings to the table. And I also feel like I know what he is MOST LIKELY never going to bring to the table.

    It's kind of like last year with Quinton Coples. To everyone but me, he was the ultimate boom or bust player. Either he's going to be awesome, or he's going to be awful. Not to me. Opposite. He was a high floor player, an ultra-safe player, that may have a lower ceiling. What you didn't know about him was whether he could develop into a great pass rusher. A kind of good one, for sure. But a great one? You don't know. You knew he was going to be powerful and explosive against the run. Knew that. That was the floor on him. At the very least, a two-down player. Hopefully, a three-down player that can be relied upon to pressure the passer.

    So what exactly was this "awesome or awful" player in 2012 as a rookie? Neither awesome, nor awful. A good, contributing, safe player.
     
  14. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    I watched plenty of Georgia football in game and footage, specifically to key on Ogletree, Jones and Commings. Then I started to key on other players, Washington included. He should have made more plays, bottom line, and from what I saw Georgia had four or more defensive players at the LOS plenty of times. Washington just underachieved, plain and simple. He has a ton of talent, but instincts and production aren't exactly selling points.

    As to Ansah- as I previously requested, please bore someone else with the same old raggedy arguments and lawyering on his behalf. You think that he'll develop as a pass rusher, I have my doubts, blah blah blah. What is beyond stale should now be left for dead, and that's any Ansah discussion between you and me. Just let it go, you can cheerlead for Ansah to many others besides me, I'm just not interested.
     
  15. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

    40,429
    22,542
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    Precisely why I view Ansah as a non boom-bust player b/c you know in the very least you're getting a versatile player who is stout vs the run, can make plays in pursuit & space, will help contain today's mobile QBs, will swat a handful of passes, should play consistently w/o a lot of costly mental mistakes, and in the very least should be ok pressuring the QB. IMO the only real question is whether or not he goes from ok pass rusher to great. He plays with passion & intensity, to the point of running himself into exhaustion like we saw during the Senior Bowl, so to me that's not an issue. Throwing out his sack stats for a moment he was one of the most dominant and productive defensive linemen in football last year. He didn't start until like the 5th game yet still finished with 62 tackles (7 shy of being second on the team), 9 passes defended, and 13 TFL.
     
  16. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    So what are you saying, that he's a safe pick as a pass rushing DE? The problem with that imo is that he had all of ONE HALF OF A SACK last year. That's just awful, as were his instincts. As I mentioned in a different post, from what I saw Georgia spent plenty of time with 4 or more players at the LOS- he had plenty of pass rush opportunities and failed miserably at getting it done.

    He looks the part of the pass rusher and has ridiculous athletic ability- again, he looked great at the Senior Bowl game and practices, better pure pass rusher than Ansah hands down, but he just wasn't very good at all during the regular seaosn games, and those games trump all as a basis of judgement. We each have our own opinions, but to me Washington is very much boom or bust.
     
  17. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

    40,429
    22,542
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    That's funny. BYU's defensive line coach specifically states they want to depend on Ansah more to stop the run than get after the passer (after injury to their starting 3-4 LE and then RE) but you call it a raggedy argument & lawyering. If that's not a hoot. I guess what it comes down to is you seemingly not understanding the roles of end & tackle in a 3-4.
     
  18. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    What's funny is your incessant cheerleading for Ansah. I intently watched the film, and when Ansah did rush the passer he was pretty much awful at it as a 3/4 DE, and purely awful if he was considered a 4/3 DE. In other words, clueless and without skill.

    You have the right to your opinion, what I'm requesting is that you no longer bore me with it.
     
  19. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

    40,429
    22,542
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    but part of the fun is boring you with it.
     
  20. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Well, that seems like an admission that you're a troll. Feel free to pm me your troll thoughts as opposed to polluting the thread with them. That way I can quickly dispose of them without the thread being contaminated.
     
  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,865
    154,274
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I think I agree with this. I mean he's not all that instinctive against the run right now but his physical gifts and strength seem to make up for that. I think you can feel pretty safe in the knowledge that he's going to contribute strongly on a two-down basis, like an Israel Idonije. But like Israel Idonije, you're left wondering when the hell the really elite aspect to a defensive end's game is going to start flowering. For Idonije that never really happened at defensive end. His pass rush potential has only ever been realized when he's been moved inside. That could end up being the case for Ansah.
     
    ToddPhin likes this.
  22. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

    40,429
    22,542
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    Nah, no trolling. It's still Ziggy Ansah information that helps shed proper light on assessing him for those of us who actually care about objectivity and accuracy. The fact it annoys you is merely an added bonus.
     
  23. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Blah
    Blah
    Blah
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    97,695
    50,673
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    B Werner is going to make some team very happy, that dude is a natural..

    I think CK's analysis all offseason is correct.
     
    ckparrothead likes this.
  25. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    From what I've seen he certainly has a good first step and he can get after the QB, quality 4/3 DE. He'd be a good fit imo.
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    97,695
    50,673
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    he has things you can't teach, anticipation and instincts, wrapped in a nice athletic package.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,865
    154,274
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    He's very good. I think he'll be even better once coaches and teammates start ripping into him for his motor not running high. That jogging stuff won't even last a full training camp.

    People like the 10 yard split. The variance for a 10 yard split is about a third of what it is for a 40 yard dash. Meaning that a 0.10 second difference in 10 yard split is about the equivalent of a 0.30 second difference in the 40 yard dash. Well, I've done the calculations, Bjoern Werner's ability to anticipate and react to the snap consistently gives him about a 0.10 second advantage over other defensive ends in the draft. But it's not just the get-off and first step, it's what those things belie. The reason he's so good getting off the snap is because of his ability to see things and react quickly, and his ability to anticipate.

    The pass rush is good, but I like looking at this video:

    [video=youtube;L66_G7A2dvk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L66_G7A2dvk[/video]

    Particularly the final play in the awareness section. Fast forward to 2:42. Do yourself a favor. Don't just skim over this. Actually watch.

    This play boggles my mind. Werner is reading the read-option. He's sitting on it, reading the ball. That's great, all fine and good. But what absolutely boggles my mind is how quickly he reacts to the fact that the football is INEXPLICABLY flying through the air straight into his hands.

    These are tenths of a bloody second, and he has NO REASON to anticipate that the ball is going to come squirting right out of the tailback's hands and into his arms. He catches the football WITH HIS HANDS (didn't even need to trap it!) as if he knew the ball was coming to him the whole ****ing time.

    It's absolutely unbelievable. I'm no physiological psychologist. But the way he was able to react to that ball defies explanation.
     
    djphinfan and Fin-Omenal like this.
  28. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

    40,429
    22,542
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    typically what you sound like
     
    Fin-Omenal likes this.
  29. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Werner might have the best first step I've seen in this class and that reaction time at 2:42 is pretty amazing, fantastic reflexes.

    This isn't quite as impressive, but here's his teammate showing some good reflexes on the other side of the ball:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-ukruK5tPA
     
    ckparrothead likes this.
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,865
    154,274
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I like when a player like Menelik Watson does things on the field he doesn't realize he shouldn't be able to do, lol.
     
  31. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    Not related to the Miami Dolphins, but in the late first or second-round, I'd consider rolling the dice on SMU's Margus Hunt if I'm playing a 3-4 scheme and need a three/five technique. In time, he could be good. It's a risk, no doubt, but depending on who else is available, I'd consider him.
     
  32. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

    25,415
    5,743
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    Alen say it ain't so! Honestly could see Green Bay trading out of round one into early round 2 and taking Hunt.
     

Share This Page