Basically I want to outline this thread by stating that I am a college senior who is going on to further study religious history in the United States and its affect on civil liberties, politics, etc. With that being said I have been researching and compiling my knowledge of those particular areas. However I don't like to have the short story of what I'm researching, I like to read the whole story; so I have began studying different religions as a part of this (Christianity predominantly). Now enough about me and this is where I hope some of you can come in and share your knowledge. What I am looking for is a non-biased approach to the life of Jesus Christ from facts that have been gathered over the years (not belief). One question that I would like to start with is whether Jesus has been proven through scientific evidence to have existed and go from there. Its really a discussion of Jesus which created Christianity which then influenced the creation of the United States. So any tips are appreciated here as my research has been giving me some convoluted results.
Just remember folks I want some non-biased facts and a respectful thread to all posters. I don't want a bashing thread. Not a slap at you Darkoak I just want this to not be another religion bashing thread.
As far as I know, no one is disputing the existence of a man named Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary, with siblings, living in areas of today's middle east, traveling, etc just as the word is stated in the bible. From, as you state, a FACTUAL standpoint other supporting documents and records of the day showing this man named Jesus and his association of the time period have been found, documented and recorded and commented on, etc. That said, I have never heard any Scientific evidence to state that no such person ever existed. Not sure if SCIENCE is trying to prove his existence actually ~ biblically recorded actions/deeds, maybe ~ but as far as I know, not whether he lived at all.
I have seen some evidence that there was actually no man named Jesus. Not saying that it is correct, however there are people disputing the existence of a man named Jesus being a king and dying on the cross. As to looking for non-biased facts an internet message board is by far the worst place to go.
I believe there are a couple of writings from what are considered outside sources that talk of a Jesus. One of those is by Josephus I think it was, but it is also a disputed writing. Thats about all I know. Looking around though it does seem like there is no hard evidence so to speak that Jesus existed.
There was some evidence they found a few years back of a man named Jesus who lived around that time. Researchers believed they found evidence this man was the son of a Roman Legionaire. Of course they couldnt prove that THIS was the Jesus from the Bible. Im not sure anyone can at this point. I think any concrete proof has been discarded or disolved for some time now.
Well we all have our biases but we also have the ability to try to walk that middle line. Plus by talking with others who have knowledge about the subject (biased or not) on a message board I find is a good way to get a better rounded overall answer. Plus I value everyone's input and when they are well thought out and not a rant its better for everyone (hence trying to be as non-biased as possible). I thank everyone for the input its appreciated.
Well actually this all part of my own nerdy research its not for a project/paper or anything. Because remember everyone Knowledge is Power.
Allow me to commend to you a book by Luke Timothy Johnson named "The Real Jesus." Much of what you will find in the popular theology today comes from a group called "The Jesus Seminar" who are basically advancing the work of the 19th century by Schliermachier (spelling may be wrong) who began the so-called "Quest for the Historical Jesus." They are popular on the televised shows seeking some provocative point of view regarding matter of faith and religion and the theological systems because they tend to denigrate anything accepted over the past 20 centuries about Jesus of Nazareth. Johnson provides an excellent counter balance to that 'theological' approach to Christianity, and may well provide you with some excellent resource material in his bibliography as well. Shalom; RevRick
The main proof I think is that there are accounts from sources outside of the believers' books which share positions, and even quotes if you will, with the mythical Jesus. Which would tend to prove that a human being indeed existed and uttered those words.
Johnson has his own ax to grind so read his work with an open mind. The original work and in many ways the best is Albert Scwietzer's "The quest for the historical Jesus" which ulitmately says the historical Jesus is unknowable beyond the faith. It has been interpreted to mean he didn't exist but that is not what the book says. It is a great read and would be helpful to you! You will also need a good basic history of Christianity book and check the first few pages for sources outside the Christian faith. There are a few writings by Romans who acknowledge the early Church and mention it roots in the historical person of Jesus. His crucifixtion seems uncontestable. The problem with your request is the time in which Jesus lived. Modern scientific methods were unknown. People who wrote about Jesus were either believers trying to spread His message or opponents attmpting to discredit the faith arising. At some point most historians simply acknowledge the volume of material leads one to an unmistakable conclusion that an historical figure must lie behind it.
Thanks for the book reference I will also add that to my list. Also I've done quite a bit of reading about Early Christianity but like you said some people have their own agenda so the more info. I get I can put it all together in my own way. In addition when I speak of facts/scientific methods, etc. I just mean I want something backed up by some substance not just someone saying "Jesus existed thats it" or "Jesus didn't exist that's it." I just want actual results not a religious slap fight that tends to get petty. I hope everyone understands that. Once again thanks for all the info., its appreciated.
Richard Dawkins address this issue in the third chapter of his book The God Delusion. He mentions a professor by the name of G.A. Wells whom he says has written extensively on this topic and specifically mentions the book Did Jesus Live?
Part of my problem is your quest for "scientific" data. I am not sure what that means. History, Archeology, and even logic can provide you with some answers but what sense of "scientific" proof are you looking for?
What I mean by "scientific" proof is that you give me some sort of well studied information. Like a book, a scholarly article, a good website, your own knowledge (mostly). Basically the scientific proof is a way of preventing this thread from degrading into a religious argument by keeping it just on the best information that has been compiled. Just something well thought out and nothing like quotes "just read the Bible", I want something well thought out . So scientific proof=some good well thought out information and no petty arguments. Hope this clears it up a little bit.
