Question about our OL

I personally believe that coaching was a big part of the problem, in addition to overall lack-luster drafting (despite spending high picks on the OL).

Frustratingly, over the last 5 years we've seen so much turn-over in the coaching and front office that the blame just gets moved around - you can't blame the new guys for old mistakes etc.

We need some consistency in the coaching and front office, and we need to see massive improvement in drafting and contract management.

Losing James still grates. His contract should have been tied up one or two years ago. Instead it was left until this year and now he's gone.
Right now we're again in a period of change. New coaches etc need to establish their system - so again it's patience time. I will say that since Flores ditched the OL coach for not implementing the system that would imply the new guy, Guge, is, or will be, implementing it. So what I'm going to be looking for is growing consistency and team play, and then next year, a move to upgrade talent. If we go into next year without improving the OL I won't be a happy camper. I've said it before, but OL play might be the most basic and important building block of any offence. If a coaching regime doesn't seem to get that, then I really don't hold out much hope and would rather see them gone.

Do a better job evaluating players.

On this...

We've drafted well at line- Jake Long, Tunsil, Pouncey, James. etc. but our focus has always been on tackles to anchor...and then we trade those tackles. Your guards are generally quicker/more agile and it hasn't been a focus in a very long time, so we take whoever's available and hope for the best. We've had some good ones in Cogs, etc. but we let them walk as well.

The other problem at line is that chemistry really matters and you need the right types of players with the right mentality. When you're constantly grabbing free agents, that chemistry won't be there unless you really get lucky. We haven't had a steady coach either for line so that revolving door, combined with the one in the locker room, creates what we see today...a few decent players with a mix of others trying to figure things out.

For instance, Dallas's starting line has been together for about 6 years now. Indy- 3 years. New England? 4 years. Ours has been together for 6 weeks and two of them are rookies with two different line coaches so far this year. So it's definitely not a shock that they don't play well as a group....they have EVERYTHING working against them and we haven't even talked about talent yet.

Can they get there? Maybe, but the odds are stacked against them. There were some clean pockets in PS1 at times so we'll just have to wait and see. We're starting two rookies at guard though so Fitz/Rosen will have to be on the move more often than not.

The way I see it, and it sort of echoes Key, it’s been our overall lack of vision.
-Who are the Miami Dolphins?
-Are we going to be a running or passing team?
-Are we drafting/signing OL based on their success with other teams/college or the skills they possess for our team?

These are just a few of the questions that come to mind when it comes to the OL.

During the Shula era, he built the OL for running during the 70’s and passing during the 80/90’s

During the JJ/Wanny era, we were built for running again.

Since then, the OL has been more of an after thought. The focus has been on QB, QB and uh...QB. Culpepper or Brees, Pennington or Henne, Tannehill...tank for Tia or not.

Decide who and what you’re going to be and build your team around that. Sign FA or draft players who fit your scheme and not just because he was a stud on another team.

Hopefully this new era in Miami will get back to the basics and return us to the glory days of yesterday

One of my favorite line drills in college- the coach would line us all in two rows facing each other, about 8 inches apart. Then he'd drop orange cones about a foot behind our feet (and once you get in a 3 or 4-point stance, your foot is just about touching the cone). Then he'd go down the line blowing the whistle and one by one, we'd fire off the LOS and hit the guy in front of us. The goal was to get his foot past the cone on his side...one step backwards and you were done.

If you won, you took a step to the left. If you lost, you went down the ranking to the right. And every single week, we'd do this drill until we had the five fastest, meanest linemen left. Then we'd make a box of four cones and have a round-robin to decide the hierarchy. Those were our starters...I had to earn my position every single week against every single lineman. This was a division III school but I'd usually be 1st or 2nd overall.

Now, you'd think brutal drills like this would lead to injury, pouting players, etc but it had the exact opposite effect- you saw who was a man and who was a sissy every single day. Even if I blew a guy out every week, if he got down in that stance and fired forward then I respected him over time...it's hard getting your ass kicked only to do it all over again. And you need stuff like that so you can bond over football first...then over life later on.

I mention this because from what I've seen, Miami's line bonds over the real world first....but not as much on the NFL stuff. Linemen are cut-throat warriors, the toughest and meanest guys in the room that are ready to throw down at a moment's notice. That's what the position demands. So when we got Philbin seeking high moral character instead of meanness and aggression, it set us down a path that led to where we are today. A QB doesn't want a lineman to be his friend....he wants him to be his Pit Bull. And hopefully that's what we start to return to.

You asked if we need to blow high picks on linemen- the answer is no. But the deplorable human that everyone hates in Incognito....that's your pit bull folks (a stupid one with mental problems, but a pit bull nonetheless). Jake Long was just as fierce yet a super nice guy, and that's all well and good if you can find it. The focus has to be on that core toughness, strength, quickness, etc though...everything else can be taught. There's simply no way to teach "bad ass" though so those are generally the guys who go in the 1st round. With hundreds of linemen eligible per year though, I guarantee that there are plenty of pit bulls that simply never got a real look because they played at smaller schools or someone else on the team out-shined them.

An NFL scout once told me after a game that I had NFL-caliber talent, but at 5' 11" and 220 pounds my chances were zero. His advice was to convert to fullback and my coach didn't like that idea (he needed me at guard too much). I think I left school with like 8 carries for 35 yards, and one was a 24 yard run. He'd occasionally put me in on goal line to blast the A-gap but I did get a few hand-offs as well. I scored 2 TD's and that was pretty awesome, but I honestly preferred lighting up linebackers.

Anyway, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to lineman. For QB, RB, or defenses, it's my amateur opinions. I know the line really well though and can see talent levels within seconds- every snap of the ball is that same weekly drill we went through to determine the starters. Either someone has that inner mean streak and the talent to match or they don't...it's very easy to see if you're looking for it.

"KeyFin wrote:

One of my favorite line drills in college- the coach would line us all in two rows facing each other, about 8 inches apart. Then he'd drop orange cones about a foot behind our feet (and once you get in a 3 or 4-point stance, your foot is just about touching the cone). Then he'd go down the line blowing the whistle and one by one, we'd fire off the LOS and hit the guy in front of us. The goal was to get his foot past the cone on his side...one step backwards and you were done.

If you won, you took a step to the left. If you lost, you went down the ranking to the right. And every single week, we'd do this drill until we had the five fastest, meanest linemen left. Then we'd make a box of four cones and have a round-robin to decide the hierarchy. Those were our starters...I had to earn my position every single week against every single lineman. This was a division III school but I'd usually be 1st or 2nd overall.

Now, you'd think brutal drills like this would lead to injury, pouting players, etc but it had the exact opposite effect- you saw who was a man and who was a sissy every single day. Even if I blew a guy out every week, if he got down in that stance and fired forward then I respected him over time...it's hard getting your *** kicked only to do it all over again. And you need stuff like that so you can bond over football first...then over life later on.

I mention this because from what I've seen, Miami's line bonds over the real world first....but not as much on the NFL stuff. Linemen are cut-throat warriors, the toughest and meanest guys in the room that are ready to throw down at a moment's notice. That's what the position demands. So when we got Philbin seeking high moral character instead of meanness and aggression, it set us down a path that led to where we are today. A QB doesn't want a lineman to be his friend....he wants him to be his Pit Bull. And hopefully that's what we start to return to.

You asked if we need to blow high picks on linemen- the answer is no. But the deplorable human that everyone hates in Incognito....that's your pit bull folks (a stupid one with mental problems, but a pit bull nonetheless). Jake Long was just as fierce yet a super nice guy, and that's all well and good if you can find it. The focus has to be on that core toughness, strength, quickness, etc though...everything else can be taught. There's simply no way to teach "bad ***" though so those are generally the guys who go in the 1st round. With hundreds of linemen eligible per year though, I guarantee that there are plenty of pit bulls that simply never got a real look because they played at smaller schools or someone else on the team out-shined them.

An NFL scout once told me after a game that I had NFL-caliber talent, but at 5' 11" and 220 pounds my chances were zero. His advice was to convert to fullback and my coach didn't like that idea (he needed me at guard too much). I think I left school with like 8 carries for 35 yards, and one was a 24 yard run. He'd occasionally put me in on goal line to blast the A-gap but I did get a few hand-offs as well. I scored 2 TD's and that was pretty awesome, but I honestly preferred lighting up linebackers.

Anyway, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to lineman. For QB, RB, or defenses, it's my amateur opinions. I know the line really well though and can see talent levels within seconds- every snap of the ball is that same weekly drill we went through to determine the starters. Either someone has that inner mean streak and the talent to match or they don't...it's very easy to see if you're looking for it.

Some great insight there, Key! I am guessing Tunsil fits the bill. Are there any others on our team that you think can cut the mustard, or is it a real shit show?

"Surfs Up 99 wrote:

Some great insight there, Key! I am guessing Tunsil fits the bill. Are there any others on our team that you think can cut the mustard, or is it a real **** show?

I haven't seen enough film yet...I barely got to watch the first pre-season game online with all the lag, etc (the first time watching, I follow the ball just like you would). But yeah, Tunsil is a pit bull and so is our rookie left guard (forget the name, but he's going to be a solid run blocker). The rest I'll just have to see over the next few weeks.

Offensive line play is still down league wide. The lack of practice, the college ranks not teaching blocking techniques like they used to, and the fact that with free agency offensive lines don't get 5 years to play together anymore, unless you hit it big or put a lot of resources into offensive line, the best you can get is decent, and decent in the modern day NFL standards is pretty bad.

Yup. Mean and Nasty. That's what I like in O linemen. Incognito, Nut job he is, filled that bill to a T. Bring me more mean SOB's like that and build a line.

We haven’t prioritized the Oline in the draft and when we’ve spent mid round picks, they’ve done poorly. Excluding the new 19 class, we’ve drafted only 6 Olineman in the prior 6 years. Only one Oline selection in the past two years (Asiata in the 5th). Really? You’d think we were sitting on the Cowboys line to do that. We drafted best available instead of need...Durham Smythe, Ballage, Leonte Carroo. Other than Tunsil and James, we whiffed on the other four mid round choices....Asiata, Billy Turner, Dallas “turnstile” Thomas and Jamil Douglas. Then we compensate for our lack of investment and poor player evaluation by reaching for veteran journeyman who are available for a reason. Big gamble in the draft that goes terribly wrong if you don’t come up aces.

I always blame our scouts GM, so I'll stick with that. When 3/4 of your picks are shit, you don't improve much (anywhere)

This is honestly the worst o-line that I have seen since being a Dolphins' fan. Honestly, I think if some of these guys got cut, they wouldn't even land on other NFL rosters. After already going through two o-line coaches, the writing might be on the wall that these guys aren't very good.

Steadfastly, I think we are wasting a huge opportunity with Rosen. All things considered, I think he has done an exceptional job. He has navigated a disaster of a pocket, stoop upright, thrown accurate passes. The results have been iffy - but many of the results had nothing to do with Rosen.

Chad O'Shea is another guy that has really impressed me. I think our offense is already looking better than Gase's. We are moving the ball on drives, they might not all be ending is scores quite yet, but I see guys getting open, the ball getting out fast, and I feel like he is setting Rosen up for success. I honestly think that O'Shea gets Rosen.

Drops and atrocious o-line play makes it next to impossible to realistically evaluate Rosen. I really think we should look to make trades to better ourselves in the trenches. I just don't envision this group of guys coming together as a solid. I know draft picks are at a premium, but Rosen has given you glimpses. It would be foolish to move on from him without giving him at least an adequate level of support around him.

"Galant wrote:

#Dolphins rookie left guard Michael Deiter was team’s highest-graded player against Tampa Bay with an elite overall grade of 91.0

Deiter allowed just 1 pressure in 30 pass-blocking snaps and earned a run-blocking grade of 89.9💪🏻#MIAvsTB #FinsUp pic.twitter.com/KjghsOKBoB

— PFF MIA Dolphins (@PFF_Dolphins) August 17, 2019

Not sure who he was lining up against, but those grades are nice to see nevertheless.

"Surfs Up 99 wrote:

Not sure who he was lining up against, but those grades are nice to see nevertheless.

He's still coming to terms with NFL pass protection but that kid is amazing in the run game....he was driving folks 7 yards off the LOS in that 1st preseason game. We should have a nice run game to the left side this season!

I think our biggest issue has been mid round drafting. Most of our first round OL have turned out to be very good. It’s all the misses on 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks that have kept us in this constant search of a good OL. Now whether that was coaching or player evaluation is beyond me

As other people pointed out, we draft tackles high but, with the exception of Samson Satele and Mike Pouncey, we don't go high for interior linemen. Maybe that should change.

I knew that kid Dieter was going to turn heads. Lets hope he stays healthy and plays beyond his years.

Dieter has had two solid weeks imo..he’s athletically limited, but he gets the job done most of the time by keeping centered relative to his opponent..Has some chemistry developing with Tunsil.

After watching last nights game I had an epiphany as it pertains to our OL...and defense for that matter and for the life of me, I feel stupid for not seeing it sooner. Anyone ever truly wonder WHY the OL can’t block that well...or why defenses can’t TACKLE anymore? Look no further than the CBA.

The CBA dictates what teams can and can’t do during OTAs and what used to be a brutal summer camp has now become a softer gentler camp with walk through, and no contact drills. By the time the first preseason game has started, teams have had a total of 16 practices. It’s no wonder why teams look like crap.

I’m all about finding that balance between players health and team results but for the multimillion dollar contracts these players are receiving, it seems that scale is tipped more in their favor and we fans end up the disappointed losers.

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

After watching last nights game I had an epiphany as it pertains to our OL...and defense for that matter and for the life of me, I feel stupid for not seeing it sooner. Anyone ever truly wonder WHY the OL can’t block that well...or why defenses can’t TACKLE anymore? Look no further than the CBA.

The CBA dictates what teams can and can’t do during OTAs and what used to be a brutal summer camp has now become a softer gentler camp with walk through, and no contact drills. By the time the first preseason game has started, teams have had a total of 16 practices. It’s no wonder why teams look like crap.

I’m all about finding that balance between players health and team results but for the multimillion dollar contracts these players are receiving, it seems that scale is tipped more in their favor and we fans end up the disappointed losers.

That doesn't explain why our OL is worse than so many others. Compare to the Patriots or Dallas. They're doing really well even with the CBA. The CBA affects them all (and you're right about the general effect it has) yet ours is consistently one of the worst. By process of elimination the reason our OL is much worse than others can't be the CBA, it has to be the GM, coach and the players themselves.

"cbrad wrote:

That doesn't explain why our OL is worse than so many others. Compare to the Patriots or Dallas. They're doing really well even with the CBA. The CBA affects them all (and you're right about the general effect it has) yet ours is consistently one of the worst. By process of elimination the reason our OL is much worse than others can't be the CBA, it has to be the GM, coach and the players themselves.

I'm curious how much the rules are broken when it comes to the CBA and practices. For instance, you can't practice with your team...but what's to stop a team from hiring a training facility from holding open practices for positional players? The coach tells them what they need to work on, it gives a huge advantage and then maybe their new coach who's not technically a coach gets hired once the season starts. It seems like it would be very easy to dance around those rules.

I still feel like our specific problem on the line has more to do with talent though- we've had good lines at times and then lost them to free agency or injury. The line was really good last year weeks 1 and 2, for example, but three of those players are now gone. And that's what we've done for a very long time- Long, Pouncey, James, etc...we let good home-grown starters and free agents walk to save money.

I mean, we're starting two rookie guards....what does anyone really expect? It's going to be really bad early on this season (and possibly all year).

I remember some time ago someone saying that drafting OL was a pretty safe bet. These days, it seems like a crapshoot. Most are coming into the league woefully unprepared. I can't speak to Googs and his ability to evaluate talent, but if he can't do it, we need to get someone on staff who can. Take Rizzi for example, now that guy can evaluate kickers and punters, can't he? I understand why he left, but I was sorry to see him go because he had a knack for finding guys who weren't necessarily on anybody's radar. Since I don't have confidence in Grier and his ability to evaluate OL, let's get an OL coach who can evaluate talent like Rizzi and maybe we can get this thing back on track because right now our OL is killing us.