I think you're right about quickness being inconsistent. I don't think he runs arch consistently, personally but I'm not going to drop him a whole lot for that. He's a good player. I don't know if he's a mid first right now. I think his value will be heavily debated.
Of all the defensive end talent at LSU, the player I found myself often drawn to was freshman Danielle Hunter #94.
Huge game for Warner tonight. National TV, ranked opponent. No more powder puffs. Just how good is he. A big performance and he sticks himself squarely in the top 10. At worst.
Same here!! I always questioned saying anything because everyone is so damn high on him for whatever reason. It's like everyone is scared of knocking him because they don't want to look like they are going against everyone else. Biggest thing I noticed about him was the fact that he is usually the last Defensive Lineman off the ball. It doesn't matter how fast he is if the OT gets a chance to set himself up. He doesn't even have a single sack thus far this season. I feel much better knowing you share the same opinion. Boomer you think Brandon Jenkins will be around in the 2nd round after his injury? I was pretty high on him before the start of the season and just the thought of nabbing him in the 2nd round has me all giddy.
Well, if you scroll up to the top of this thread in my initial assessment I wouldn't even rank one #3 and the other #4. I put them #3a. and #3b. Jones clearly the more instinctive player with more physical shocking hands, but Mingo the guy that can execute edge rushes all day. Tough choice. And if you ask me right now I'm leaning toward Jones above Mingo. But I still have both Werner and Gayle above them. Gayle is a guy that doesn't get talked about near enough. I think Werner has successfully crashed the party the way I hoped he would when I had him #1 at a time when every other draftnik probably had him #7 or #8 down the list (if not further). But Gayle hasn't really done that yet. I don't know where his head is at or what his personality is like. I know he's related to Shaun Gayle but I don't know if that means anything. He's not nearly as heads up a player as Bjoern Werner is but then, Werner is an exceptionally heads up player. But Gayle probably has more physical ability than Werner, and his win percentage on blocks is right there with Werner.
After week 5 01. DE Bjoern Werner - 17 Tackles 6.5 Sacks 02. DE/OLB James Gayle - 9 Tackles 2 Sack 03. OLB Barkevious Mingo - 13 Tackles 1 Sacks 04. DE/OLB Dion Jordan - 22 Tackle 3 Sacks 05. DE Malliciah Goodman - 6 Tackle 0 Sacks 06. OLB Jarvis Jones - 33 Tackles 4.5 Sacks 07. DE/OLB Alex Okafor - 12 Tackles 4 Sack 08. DE Cory Lemonier - 13 Tackles 5 Sacks 09. DE Sam Montgomery - 15 Tackles 2 Sack 10. DE William Gholston - 18 Tackles 1 Sack 11. DE John Simon - 17 Tackles 1 Sack 12. DT/DE Margus Hunt - 11 Tackles 2 Sack 13. OLB Brandon Jenkins - 3 Tackles 1 Sack (out for season) 14. DE Demontre Moore - 27 Tackles 6 Sacks 15. DE/OLB Jackson Jeffcoat - 18 Tackles 3 sacks 16. DE Wes Horton - 8 Tackles 1 Sacks 17. DE Devin Taylor - 13 Tackles 1.5 Sacks 18. DE Michael Buchanon - 19 Tackles 2.5 Sack 19. DE Craig Roh, Michigan - 11 Tackles .5 Sack *** DE Jadevon Clowney - 21 Tackles 5.5 Sack *** DE Cornellius Carradine - 18 Tackles 7 Sack *** DE Kareem Martin - 16 Tackles 2 Sacks *Defensive statistics not considered official.
I don't like the Von Miller comparison for Jarvis Jones either. I like Jones a lot but I'm not sure I like that comparison.
How'd you get 1 sack for Buchanan then? I don't see that kind of athletic ability from Jones that Miller has.
NBD, but I have a folder of bookmarks that link to each players stats. I was using ESPN's links. But a few players ESPN pages where blank (like Buchanan's). So literally as you were typing the comment I was searching for and found CFBstats.com and was editing my post with their stats.
Do you all think Carradine is really that good or is benefiting from playing opposite Werner. Jenkins injury has done nothing but help Carradine rise up draft boards.
Carridine is good but he's benefiting from the position he's playing. If they had Werner playing the same position I think his numbers would be even better which is why I was so amazed he was amassing the numbers he was earlier. They're just having Carridine pin his ears back and rush the passer. I always said when Jenkins got hurt their D would actually improve from it, and I stand by that. But the offense last night...couldn't do anything. That's a pretty crappy loss.
it's gotta suck when Jenkins go down and you have Carradine and the nation's #1 recruit behind him. lol
After week 7 01. DE Bjoern Werner - 21 Tackles 6.5 Sacks 02. DE/OLB James Gayle - 25 Tackles 3 Sack 03. OLB Barkevious Mingo - 20 Tackles 2 Sacks 04. DE/OLB Dion Jordan - 24 Tackle 3 Sacks 05. DE Malliciah Goodman - 9 Tackle 0 Sacks 06. OLB Jarvis Jones - 36 Tackles 5.5 Sacks 07. DE/OLB Alex Okafor - 18 Tackles 6 Sacks 08. DE Cory Lemonier - 21 Tackles 5 Sacks 09. DE Sam Montgomery - 21 Tackles 4 Sack 10. DE William Gholston - 28 Tackles 1 Sack 11. DE John Simon - 26 Tackles 3 Sack 12. DT/DE Margus Hunt - 14 Tackles 3 Sack 13. OLB Brandon Jenkins - 3 Tackles 1 Sack (out for season) 14. DE Demontre Moore - 52 Tackles 8.5 Sacks 15. DE/OLB Jackson Jeffcoat - 28 Tackles 4 sacks (out for season) 16. DE Wes Horton - 13 Tackles 3 Sacks 17. DE Devin Taylor - 21 Tackles 1.5 Sacks 18. DE Michael Buchanon - 28 Tackles 2.5 Sack 19. DE Craig Roh, Michigan - 19 Tackles 2 Sack *** DE Jadevon Clowney - 31 Tackles 6.5 Sack *** DE Cornellius Carradine - 41 Tackles 7 Sack *** DE Kareem Martin - 22 Tackles 2 Sacks *Defensive statistics not considered official.
14. DE Demontre Moore - 52 Tackles 8.5 Sacks has great numbers. A Texas A&M player our coaches should know alot about.
He's not a DE IMO. Like Mingo he's long and lean, but he doesn't look like a guy who will add much weight IMO and he doesn't appear powerful in any real way. If you have him play with his hand in the dirt he'll be eaten alive. And Malliciah Goodman is not a good end, not from a pass rush standpoint, anytime he is required to bend he tends to lose his footing, that to me also calls into question his balance and he doesn't have a good first step. Buyer beware there IMO
This class of DE outside of a few players is not a very dynamic group by any means. Lots of guys who will end up as wave players or out of the league in the near future. Not a 'great' year to be looking for a DE honestly. This may have played into Ireland taking a flyer on Vernon who at draft time was a height, weight, speed guy with potential. There's not that many of those in this draft class even if the juniors come out.
Good call on Datone Jones, by the way. Impressive player but I wonder about him more as a 3-tech than a 5.
I disagree on this class of DEs. I think it's a better class than last year's group. In fact I was just going to say that the more I looked into guys like Walter Stewart and Quanterus Smith, the more I appreciate that there are even more attractive players than I'd thought. Between Alex Okafor, Dion Jordan, Cornellius Carridine, Walter Stewart and Quanterus Smith, you actually have some pretty good pass rush potential in a lot of those guys. Then you have guys like John Simon, Datone Jones and Malliciah Goodman (who is reminding me more of someone like an Israel Idonije)...and while I don't know if they'll ever be dynamic pass rushers, they have the potential to play a lot of snaps in their roles. And that's before you even get into juniors, which inevitably impacts every class. Between Bjoern Werner, Jarvis Jones, Barkevious Mingo, Corey Lemonier, James Gayle and Morgan Breslin, there is the potential to infuse this class with a whole lot more pass rush potential than we saw in last year's class. I mean think about the fact that the Seahawks had to take a Bruce Irvin in the mid 1st round just to get that kind of explosiveness, even with all the problems it comes with. He's playing well but he essentially is what he is, passing downs only (26 run snaps vs. 120 pass snaps), and a little bit of a talker that can get you in trouble with the media every now and again. The only surprise about how he's played is that they're getting nearly 30 snaps a game out of him where I thought it might be half that as a rookie. Depending on which juniors come out, if you want Bruce Irvin's explosiveness, you won't have to grab it in the mid-1st round and accept that he's 240 lbs dripping wet, and a one dimensional player with a character history. I think this edge rush class is setting up to be pretty strong.
Walter Stewart is a nice run defender, but he doesn't have a the explosiveness you'd like to see at an end spot. He seems like more of a linebacker when you watch him, but his lack of agility makes you want to put him at DE, where he simply doesn't do enough to threaten tackles, especially better ones. Carradine gets over matched against the run more than you'd like and doesn't have much sand in his pants, and unlike a Nick Perry doesn't have anything after the quick hand slap as a means to get by anyone. Perry was limited in his pass rush repertoire but at least he had something else to go to. John Simon, is again without much true speed and is a better run defender than pass rusher. He has his spots but any burst quickly diminishes the more steps he takes, negating any advantage he may have created at the snap. Jarvis Jones is likely a better fit with his hand up in some kind of 3-4, where he can have the angle for the edge, if he puts his hand down he won't stands the test of time IMO, just not enough to him. Mingo looks more like a OLB than a true DE, he has the length, but he's very, very lean. Cat quick, and athletic but again he's not a DE to me. There are pass rushers in the draft, but not many ones that do it from an end position. They'll have to stand up to take advantage of their skillsets, and that isn't a DE. To me you have Lemonier, Okafor, Werner, Gayle Michael Buchanon (who is vastly underrated) and maybe Datone Jones who is a tweener in some ways and then you have issues when you want to rush the passer from an end spot.
Yeah he is an interesting player, but when he's inside he has big trouble with a double team. And, when he can't get in the gap right away and use that initial quickness to beat the OL he is half the player compared to when he does get in the gap. I'd wonder where to play him, but he can be very explosive for a man his size.
I think he can improve in taking on double teams, for sure. I think as a 3-tech, 1 gap tackle would be problematic for blockers.
Personally, I'm not a fan of drafting Gayle (although I do like him) unless his value is too good to pass up. IMO he won't be starting over Odrick at SDE on 1st & 2nd down, which would essentially reserve him to nickel pass rush duties while also providing Odrick the occasional breather, and I don't believe Gayle possesses enough pass rush ability to warrant drafting him as a situational rusher. IMO we'd be better off drafting a talented pass rusher who compliments our current defense rather than looking for a full time DE to supplant Odrick and in turn potentially change the defense's dynamics. Perhaps he could also double as the guy we groom as Wake's future heir..... like Lemonier. Totally didn't mean that to rhyme.
I think something to consider at least in regards to the Dolphins interest in this area is the way they've managed the defense. The popular thing is replacing Jared Odrick, but given that they were willing to put a former DT out there in the first place I think you've generally got to assume a replacement will be able to fill some of the same roles. You're probably not going to be able fill the role with a normal 255 pound edge rusher. You're basically looking for someone who is particularly stout for an edge rusher, or an athletic big man. Somewhere between Carlos Dunlap and Calais Campbell. The other alternative is trying to find the next Von Miller and just playing an edge rusher at linebacker in your base package, but I'm not sure how palatable that is. You're basically replacing Koa Misi who has played very well. There's been some suggestion that Misi could replace Burnett or Dansby, but I don't see how that's realistic given you are taking a significant cap hit for releasing a quality performing, and inserting a guy who is more dominating in one aspect but deficient in others. You're also altering the defense, because Koa Misi is playing more like a traditional linebacker in base packages than an edge rusher, as was Lawson with the Bengals. You're looking at I think a pretty narrow window that might be difficult for the Dolphins to hit.
but nothing says we'd have to start the rookie during his rookie year. He can be a situational pass rusher during year 1 and ease into the starting OLB role thereafter depending on how ready he is, so we could realistically have Burnett for 2 years while developing the OLB behind him or Misi. I'm not against drafting Wake's future replacement who initially serves as a nickel pass rusher, then gradually shares more snaps with Wake to where a couple years from now a 33 year old Wake can become the situational pass rusher if need be.
One guy I've seen, albeit only a couple times, that has flashed has been Quanterus Smith of Western Kentucky. He strikes me as someone Miami would try and train on at Koa Misi's role (he reminds me a bit of K.J. Wright of Seattle when he was at Mississippi State). He's got a long, lean frame at 6'4" and 250lbs, but I think he's held his own against some bigger tackles this year. He had a pretty solid game against Alabama. I don't think he's a plug and play type of guy, but, he's someone that I think you could groom behind Misi and even let him challenge Olivier Vernon and Derrick Shelby for the spot at 3rd down pass-rusher opposite Wake. Maybe that almost gives Miami an opportunity to put Vernon inside next to Jared Odrick in obvious passing situations. Interesting prospect, and I think he's got a chance to put on some more good weight, and could essentially do what K.J. Wright is doing for Seattle and still potentially give you the same run-stopping ability that Koa Misi is currently giving Miami.
I think they went with Odrick because he was the best they could come up with the limited resources available and other needs having priority. They have the resources to find a better option next year.
Hopefully Jeff Ireland doesn't limit himself to that window. About the only guy I can think of that's relatively close to those skill sets would be William Gholston of Michigan State. That said, I don't think he's as good a pass-rusher as Dunlap, nor is he as good along the front line as Campbell. I'd almost copy what Seattle did by trying to find someone who can come in on 3rd downs, at least to start off with, while you utilize the front 7 that's currently in place.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in agreement with this personally. If teams are willing to draft a Nose Tackle that high you should be willing to draft a Nickel sub DE. I'm just not sure how realistic it is Ireland or whomever else would agree. I think I might have overstated the size element too. It's possible that they are willing to have smaller guys play that position. Sometimes alignment has Wake basically playing that position, and Olivier Vernon seems to sub in for Odrick in that role. I think it's also quite possible they like what they have. It's really premature to be putting career caps on Olivier Vernon and Derrick Shelby.
Excellent point. I don't see why not if the value were there at the pick. After all, Ireland is the guy behind both Dallas drafting Ware over Spears and Miami making Wake the highest paid CFL'er. I think it might depend on how much Ireland & Philbin enjoy making opposing offenses 1 dimensional. Are they doing it out of choice or b/c it represents our best current option and achieving optimal success? That, too, is definitely possible.... however, if the value is there and we have a chance to potentially upgrade the position, I don't see him passing on a talented pass rusher just b/c we have Vernon & Shelby considering how important the position is, but I don't think he'll draft a pass rusher just to do so. Do you?
