Players not sold on Tua

"Fishhead wrote:

Pretty bush league to throw your (rookie) teammate under the bus like that, IMO. Im sure Flores is PO’d.

I agree, and I suspect it may have been motivated by these players' awareness that the team is in a position to draft another QB this year or trade for Watson.

I have nothing against Tua. He seems like a nice guy and I hope, eventually, he'll be a good quarterback. But I don't think he'll ever be great. That's just my judgement, but it's what I see. That's why I'd rather not pass up the chance to draft a QB at three overall.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

I have nothing against Tua. He seems like a nice guy and I hope, eventually, he'll be a good quarterback. But I don't think he'll ever be great. That's just my judgement, but it's what I see. That's why I'd rather not pass up the chance to draft a QB at three overall.

I wouldn't take Just Fields there, however. I'm an Ohio State fan and I'm less sold on him than I am on Tua.

"The Guy wrote:

I wouldn't take Just Fields there, however. I'm an Ohio State fan and I'm less sold on him than I am on Tua.

It's always a mistake to take an Ohio State QB. I will believe this until one of them proves me wrong.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

It's always a mistake to take an Ohio State QB. I will believe this until one of them proves me wrong.

The problem is that if the Jets take Wilson at #2, that leaves Fields and (theoretically) a big drop-off thereafter. If they want to go after another QB I think trading for Watson may be the better bet. Go ahead and give the Texans back a lot of what we've taken from them already, in addition to Tua.

"The Guy wrote:

The problem is that if the Jets take Wilson at #2, that leaves Fields and (theoretically) a big drop-off thereafter. If they want to go after another QB I think trading for Watson may be the better bet. Go ahead and give the Texans back a lot of what we've taken from them already, in addition to Tua.

If the Jets take Wilson at 2, I may change my mind. They're the Jets, though, I hold out hope they'll do the wrong thing.

"Galant wrote:

And then of course it brings back the question of why Tua got the start as QB1. Was it truly Flores' decision to play the best - as he repeatedly preached - or was it a front office decision? If it was the FO then hopefully it was because they wanted to see what they had in Tua before the offseason - and not because of some reason like hype and ticket sales in a down year. Either way, hopefully Flores was really onboard, because having the FO interfere in who you put on the field and break your word about putting the best players on the field isn't good.

This is the part that has really been nagging at me since they started him. After the Arizona game, it seemed maybe Flo knew something we didn't and had made the right move. Now, not so much.

If he did this because of the FO, he just lost a lot of credibility in my book. He ALWAYS says we'll play the players that give us the best chance to win. He HAS to be consistent with that or else the players won't be fully bought-in.

But what's really interesting is who wanted which QB at the draft. Did Flo want Herbert? Did Grier? Somebody has egg on their face. I'm 100% of the opinion Flo didn't want to name Tua starter for the rest of the season based on "who gives us a better chance to win"...it just goes against his mantra. We'll never know...but there's a rift in there somewhere.

"resnor wrote:

I mean, it's not like Fitz is trash. I'm not happy with Tua, but I also don't think it's reasonable to expect Tua to come in and outplay a 16 year veteran.

What is fair, is to argue that Tua was not pushing the ball downfield like Fitz. The offense just didn't have any energy with Tua. So, in many ways, I feel like the similarity in rating really didn't tell the story, because Fitz was taking chances and throwing more difficult throws, and scoring TDs, while Tua played super conservative, and didn't score TDs, even when playing with the same players.

Fitz also had those really tough first few weeks as all the rookies adjusted. No way Tua (or any rookie QB) finishes those early games upright. This is not an apples to apples comparison that people are trying to make.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

If the Jets take Wilson at 2, I may change my mind. They're the Jets, though, I hold out hope they'll do the wrong thing.

If recent history is any indicator, then the Jets will find a way to mess up this pick. They already managed to play themselves out of the first pick and Trevor Lawrence, for starters.

I don't trust anything from un-named sources.

AMEN! Plus the fact that we do not know 'How Many' of the {["Dolphin"]} players constitute this alleged disgruntled group. It could be 3 people, each one talking to the other 2 persons, which leads to 6 more in the {group}, etc., etc., etc. Sounds more like the newspaper equivalent of 'click bait..'
Matter of fact, there might be a lot of bovine scatology involved, as well.

Tyreek Hill owes a lot his recent success to quarterback Patrick Mahomes, but the Chiefs wide receiver revealed that he initially didn’t think much of the player his team traded up for in the 2017 NFL Draft.

While appearing on Tuesday’s episode of Showtime’s “Inside the NFL,” Hill was blunt about what he thought of the then-rookie Mahomes during his first training camp.

“I thought he was trash,” he said. “I ain’t gonna cap.

“I was like, ‘This is who y’all drafted?'”

Hill, the Chiefs’ fifth-round pick in 2016, has more touchdown catches this season (13) than he has had at any other point in his career. He has led all Chiefs receiver in yards and touchdowns each season in which Mahomes has been the starting QB.

“That second year his quarterback mechanics were different,” Hill said. “He was spending more time with the quarterbacks coach, coach Reid learning the offense. Dude was just different.”

Tua doesnt even have abilities to build on. With other passers you could see they had some sort of ability. With Tua it's like watching Cleo Lemon.

Flores responds:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30713224/miami-dolphins-coach-brian-flores-reaffirms-support-tua-tagovailoa

"A lot of attention gets paid to Tua, but I thought he made a lot of improvement over the course of the season. I'm excited about the future with him," Flores told ESPN. "He's a young player, talented player, bounced back from the hip. I think this is a big offseason for him. That Year 1 to Year 2 jump will be important, like it is for all rookies."

"Criticism comes with the territory in the NFL across the board. Our team did a good job ignoring that stuff. Anyone who saw the Dolphins this year saw we were a tight-knit group and I think that's still the case," Flores said. "The idea that there is any kind of fracture is overblown. I thought there was a lot of support throughout the locker room.

"My message to the team has been to ignore the noise and the people inside the building are going to tell the truth to you. Without all the information, how do you make any determination about what's going on?"

"We learned that he's healthy. He still has a lot of his mobility. He's accurate. In the Arizona game, he brings us back in the fourth quarter. He brought us back in the Kansas City game. He also didn't play as well in other games. He had some bright spots and not-so-bright spots. That's the life of a rookie," Flores said. "If he continues to learn, study, stay healthy, get stronger, work on his footwork and his eye progression and pick up where he left off, then I think we're going to be happy with his improvement."

FULL STORY via link above.

PFF talking about the piece. Starts at 7:15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id=8hovw7TwS90;t=436

Let me give you some perspective as a former journalist and a career writer.

I could interview any of you and say, "What do you think of Tua?" Most of you would give your honest opinions...he's good at this, he stinks at that and he still has a long way to go. But if you worked in the NFL, your answer would be a lot different....he's a young QB that's working hard and shows a lot of promise. That 2nd statement says absolutely nothing- which is exactly the point politically when you're inside a sports organization.

As a reporter, I wouldn't bother asking you that question because I already know the answer. So I have to get a little creative. Maybe I ask, "Do you feel Tua gives the team a better chance of winning than Fitzpatrick today?" We all know the answer to that, and the "political" answer would be that they both bring different strengths to the offense....bla bla bla. But if it's asked at the right moment, maybe you get a player or two that will say the common truth that we already know- as of today, Fitz is clearly better.

However, I can get even more devious by asking a receiver- "You had three drops in that last game- what happened there? Did Tua's ball placement have anything to do with that?" Now they're on the spot....do they speak poorly of themselves, or say the QB's throw maybe sorta-kinda led to the outcome? I'm completely leading them to the answer I want.

Or I can ask, "Looking at some of the Dolphin greats at QB, how do you think Tua compares after his rookie season?" Or we could do it with current players- "How did Tua's season compare with Burrow and Herbert?" It's a completely loaded question where you either outright lie to give the "politically correct NFL answer" or you share a shred of honesty.

The point is, if I get ANY NFL player to share a hint of their actual opinion to any of these questions, I can legit say that they showed doubt in their QB. And guess what folks, I could do that with any Dolphins player in the history of the league.

For instance, Marino was a complete jerk when he's drunk...I've seen it first hand dozens of times back when I'd get autographs with an old friend. I could easily relay one of my Marino encounters to a former Dolphins player, we'd share a laugh, and then maybe they say, "Yeah, Dan was a real a-hole when he had too much to drink." Now I have a quote from an unnamed source that said "Marino was an arrogant jerk and many players in the locker room resented him."

Is the statement "true"? Absolutely. And because I made it a clever statement about "in the locker room", you associate it to actual game problems instead of what it really is. But it's the truth- those players were in that locker room at some point in their lives. Yet it's also complete BS and a reputable news agency should fire me for it. There's just no such thing as "reputable" + "news" anymore because it's all about the clicks. The story doesn't matter as long as it brings visitors to your website. Visits = Ad Revenue, which means truth or honesty no longer matter as long as the news agency can't get sued.

And like I said, I sorta-kinda told the truth there by piecing a few things together and then sensationalizing it.

I GUARANTEE YOU that no player on the Dolphins gave a direct statement bashing Tua...because they'd be off to Cleveland within 48 hours. You just don't do that in the NFL and keep your job. But I did want to show you why this story is 100% garbage yet probably also 100% true...just not in the way you imagined it.

I’m not sold on him either but that doesn’t matter because our coach/GM aren’t giving up on him at this point. Let’s hope we see major improvement from this year.

"KeyFin wrote:

For instance, Marino was a complete jerk when he's drunk...I've seen it first hand dozens of times back when I'd get autographs with an old friend. I could easily relay one of my Marino encounters to a former Dolphins player, we'd share a laugh, and then maybe they say, "Yeah, Dan was a real a-hole when he had too much to drink." Now I have a quote from an unnamed source that said "Marino was an arrogant jerk and many players in the locker room resented him."

Is the statement "true"? Absolutely. And because I made it a clever statement about "in the locker room", you associate it to actual game problems instead of what it really is. But it's the truth- those players were in that locker room at some point in their lives. Yet it's also complete BS and a reputable news agency should fire me for it. There's just no such thing as "reputable" + "news" anymore because it's all about the clicks. The story doesn't matter as long as it brings visitors to your website. Visits = Ad Revenue, which means truth or honesty no longer matter as long as the news agency can't get sued.

And like I said, I sorta-kinda told the truth there by piecing a few things together and then sensationalizing it.

And this is why you can't trust anything out of the media. They're all liars and click-bait artists now. Too bad not enough real journalists stood up to the commentary being made to look as fact, news reporting that goes on now. They've killed objective reporting and now its just sensationalism. Journalists, used car salesmen and lawyers. Not sure which order to put them in as the worst professions in todays society.

"Finatik wrote:

And this is why you can't trust anything out of the media. They're all liars and click-bait artists now. Too bad not enough real journalists stood up to the commentary being made to look as fact, news reporting that goes on now. They've killed objective reporting and now its just sensationalism. Journalists, used car salesmen and lawyers. Not sure which order to put them in as the worst professions in todays society.

Today, I'd trust a lawyer or a car salesman over a journalist...it's not even a close call which is the worst of the three. That's why I migrated from journalism to marketing many years ago.

I know we can't talk politics here, but this country is so divided because the media (on all sides) has screamed for years now that we're supposed to hate each other for having different opinions. To me, sensationalism in the media should be a criminal offense...it absolutely sickens me and it's the root cause for so many of our issues today.

This is just my 2 cents but I think Parker was one guy unhappy with Tua. His body language on all the throws over his head, missing him ect his body language said so much about who he wanted throwing him the ball. I've never seen that body language with Fitz.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

This is just my 2 cents but I think Parker was one guy unhappy with Tua. His body language on all the throws over his head, missing him ect his body language said so much about who he wanted throwing him the ball. I've never seen that body language with Fitz.

Parker needs to have the ball placed into his hands with 2 feet of separation all around him. It's too bad he can't get even 2 feet of separation.

"Finatik wrote:

Parker needs to have the ball placed into his hands with 2 feet of separation all around him. It's too bad he can't get even 2 feet of separation.

Do you just like saying illogical things? Parker is one of the best receivers in coverage in the game. He literally doesnt need separation, just a decently placed ball is enough 95% of the time.

Also two feet of separation is ridiculous. No NFL player gets that without bad coverage. Not Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, no-one.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

Do you just like saying illogical things? Parker is one of the best receivers in coverage in the game. He literally doesn't need separation, just a decently placed ball is enough 95% of the time.

Umm no. You just make stuff up out of your head.

YARDS PER RECEPTION - 12.6 Rank - #55
YARDS PER TARGET - 7.7 - Rank #72
YARDS PER ROUTE RUN - 1.56 - Rank #66
CATCHABLE TARGET RATE - 81.6% (84 targets) - #28
TARGET QUALITY RATING - 6.3 - Rank #25
CATCH RATE 61.2% - Rank #78
TRUE CATCH RATE - 75.0% - Rank #97

So while his Catchable Target Rate is #28 his true catch rate is #97.

And looking at his separation which was my point that you dismissed:
Target Separation - 0.84y RANK #108
Drops 8 (0.6 p/g) - Rank #7 (Not good to be highly ranked here)
Drop Rate - 7.8% - Ranked #12 (So I guess just getting a decently placed ball doesn't help. And 95% Bahhhhh)

I know facts just get into the way when you live your life by emotion but just stop or you're going to make yourself look foolish. Again.

"Finatik wrote:

Umm no. You just make stuff up out of your head.

YARDS PER RECEPTION - 12.6 Rank - #55
YARDS PER TARGET - 7.7 - Rank #72
YARDS PER ROUTE RUN - 1.56 - Rank #66
CATCHABLE TARGET RATE - 81.6% (84 targets) - #28
TARGET QUALITY RATING - 6.3 - Rank #25
CATCH RATE 61.2% - Rank #78
TRUE CATCH RATE - 75.0% - Rank #97

So while his Catchable Target Rate is #28 his true catch rate is #97.

And looking at his separation which was my point that you dismissed:
Target Separation - 0.84y RANK #108
Drops 8 (0.6 p/g) - Rank #7 (Not good to be highly ranked here)
Drop Rate - 7.8% - Ranked #12 (So I guess just getting a decently placed ball doesn't help. And 95% Bahhhhh)

I know facts just get into the way when you live your life by emotion but just stop or you're going to make yourself look foolish. Again.

Wow you quoted some statistics. I watched the games, I dont really care about statistics I care about the circumstances behind what happens on the field.

You're seriously like arguing with a 5 year old. Can you do me a favor and stop quoting me? If this were real life I can guarantee you wouldnt be doing this, or if you were it would end really quick.

Your behaviour has become borderline stalking and harrassment and I'll be reaching out to the moderators if you continue to stalk me.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

Wow you quoted some statistics. I watched the games, I dont really care about statistics I care about the circumstances behind what happens on the field.

You're seriously like arguing with a 5 year old. Can you do me a favor and stop quoting me? If this were real life I can guarantee you wouldnt be doing this, or if you were it would end really quick.

Your behaviour has become borderline stalking and harrassment and I'll be reaching out to the moderators if you continue to stalk me.

You don't care about statistics because that disproves everything you have to say. You're posting opinions on a discussion board. I keep quoting exactly what you said and offering legitimate examples of why you're wrong. That's called a discussion. I get it that you're frustrated with not having a rational response and that makes you "feel" harassed but just like your takes, it's not how you "feel" about the game, it's what the actual facts are that matters.