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Pick #1 @6 - Jaylen Waddle

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    The injury wouldn’t normally be an issue but we have a receiving corp that is made of glass. That and I just don’t believe you take a slot receiver at 6. Elijah Moore would have been a good slot 28 spots later.
     
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  2. daphins

    daphins A-Style

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    he’s not a slot receiver. Her lined op there less than 50% of the time in 2019.
     
  3. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Talking about where he’ll be in the NFL with Parker and Fuller there.
     
  4. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Slot receivers and Nickel CBs are starters in the modern NFL. It makes sense to give them draft value on the basis that they are starters.
     
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  5. Kud_II

    Kud_II Wtf is this curse you Gave me Lord? Club Member

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    You're being too kind... It goes more like this...

    Grier just blew our 2020 #5 overall pick and our 2021 #6 overall pick and somehow still has a job.
     
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  6. Kud_II

    Kud_II Wtf is this curse you Gave me Lord? Club Member

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    With you 100 Rick. Hell I'm very confident I can find a WR at 18 that would be almost, if not as much as *a value pick* as Waddle. Waddle is nothing more than a project and glorified slot receiver at the next level period. There were so many other players I would have taken (or trade back.. or never trade back up in the first place like I once said and keep our extra second 1st for 2022)

    I spit on this pick, and on Grier/Dolphins FO. WE TRADED AN ADDITIONAL FIRST ROUNDER FOR JAYLEN WADDLE. DON'T FORGET THAT WHEN YOU'RE EXPECTING A CONSISTENT 1000+ yd receiver and 10+ TD guy annually that don't get hurt. Because for Two 1st round picks at this position, if you don't get at least that level of consistent production, you've made a very poor trade in the end(pissed away two first round picks.) Really hope I'm wrong for the Dolphins sake. Wasn't wrong at #5 last year though... That's for damn sure, and it's a damn shame to me just the same... I'd rather be having that QB on my team not bragging that I picked him over Tua, believe me.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  7. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    1). You're confused. I didn't say Waddle was talentless. I said, He's an undersized athlete WR in a league filled with those, with more and more coming every draft. They're everywhere. And that's hard to dispute, given that both are facts. I know... Waddle is different. They all are. Every year. Whether it's Ginn, Austin, Ross, etc... People love speed. And it's understandable. A skill you can't teach. Not every player who runs a 4.2 40 yard dash is going to be Tyreke Hill, despite the fact that NFL fans convince themselves otherwise (every year to their derision). I hope Waddle is all-world. We drafted him and I can't change that. I'm hoping for the best and I'm going to root for him. Which brings me to my next and original problem...

    2). Cost benefit. Good teams don't draft WR in the top 10. Many not in the top 20. The elite organizations, not at all. Why? Market share value. QB, Tackles, and Edge rushers are premium positions, for example. You need a top 10 QB to win championships. You need tackles to protect them. And you need rushers to stop them. The market for players who can play these positions at an elite level is limited. The supply is low, the demand is high, and the cost is premium. on the flip side, we have WR. The supply for WR is robust. Quality WR can be found all over the draft, even undrafted... Does any position enjoy more success going undrafted than undrafted WR? Not rhetorical, I'm honestly asking. I can't think of any outside of punters and kickers. All things being equal, you shouldn't draft a position of high supply (and low value) over a position of premium value. For example, 7/25 (WR) league leaders in receiving yards in 2020 were 1st round picks... Yikes. To be fair, WR is a highly dependent position. An elite WR can't excel without a quality QB. Yet, an elite QB can elevate a WR. Not true of a blindside protector. Hence, positional value. Incidentally, that's of added importance given that our QB is 6'0", 200-210lbs, and is super breakable... What's worse, Miami not only violated the cardinal rule of not drafting a WR in the top 10, they also used an extra first round pick to do it, and at the expense of drafting a player(s) with premium positional value. 3 strikes and you're out.

    Given what we gave up, how much better is Waddle than say, Elijah Moore? I bet their career numbers aren't going to be dissimilar, if they're healthy. Even if Waddle is clearly better, we paid so much for him, it's almost impossible to justify the cost difference. So who got the better deal? The Dolphins with Waddle at 6th overall and a 2022 first round pick, or the Jets at 34th? I'd take Elijah Moore in round 2 with Sewell at 6 over what we did. I'd take Smith or Waddle at 12 or 10(+3rd) too, despite the fact I don't like drafting WR in round 1... And yes, I would also would have preferred to stay at 3 and draft Pitts given what Grier ultimately did. Grier played checkers, not chess. That's the real issue.
     
  8. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    not saying they aren’t important or even worthy of a first round pick. I just don’t think you draft that position at 6.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  9. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  10. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  11. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Honest question.

    Does anyone know if the Dolphins have said if they view him as boundary WR or do they plan to put him in the slot?
     
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  12. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You've missed a clear shift in the NFL. The ball comes out so quick now that edge rushers don't matter as much. Unless the tackle wiffs, or the D schemes a free rusher, it's really hard to get there before the ball is out or the QB is running. There was one (1) DE drafted in the first round last year vs what? 5 WRs? And that DE was a freak like Chase. Miami drafted the first DE this year after 4 or 5, depending on how you view Pitts, WRs went. 10 of the first 11 picks were ball catchers, QBs, or CBs. You need smart sound OL that can deal with blitz games, stunts, etc... while hopefully having the power to get it done for the run game. The passing game is mostly QB and receivers vs secondary and LBs. Speed kills, controlled speed slaughters. I take Waddle-Eichenberg over Sowell-Moore every time.

    I would be shocked if Moore comes close to Waddle. He is on a different level. And, Moore went to the Jets. Poor kid didn't deserve that.

    The Dolphins biggest need was clearly a playmaker receiver. They had plenty of size, Parker, Williams, Gesicki. Adding Fuller and now Waddle means that the field is instantly stretched both directions. Blitzing is far more dangerous, zones just got bigger, safeties now play deeper and stay wider. I have visions of Fuller going deep and Waddle dragging underneath that. Of, Parker, Williams, or Gesicki getting 1v1, or how huge their size makes those holes in the stretched zone. Waddle, with the possible exception of Pitts, was the best fit in the draft for the Dolphins roster. And we got him.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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  13. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    I doubt he leaves the field much other than for jumbo packages
     
  14. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  15. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Watch from 2:03:45 -

     
  16. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  17. Finrunner

    Finrunner Season Ticket Holder

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    Wanted to say I “Liked” both yours and Clark Kent’s posts. While I agree with your POV and points, Clark K. makes really good and backed points, too. These kind of debates, especially when respectful, are what I most cherish about this forum.

    Well done to you both. Respect.
     
  18. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    I haven’t heard them say.
    But he played both in college.
    Fuller also plays out of the slot and gets moved around.

    Parker is an outside guy. Waddle and Fuller are weapons all over the field and we would be smart to move them around and keep defenses adjusting/guessing.

    That’s been a problem. Our offense was predictable last year.
     
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  19. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    This is my concern. I wanna set Waddle up for success. I really do think that we need to start thinking about boundary WR and slot WR as separate positions. I think it would be best to teach him one position and not try and ask too much of him.

    I agree that Parker is a true boundary guy. I think Fuller is best served as a boundary guy, but he can roll inside. This is the dilemma. Our commitment to Fuller is just one year. If he plays poorly, he will be gone. But also, if he go nuts, I don't think we will give him a big contract.

    For the sake of Waddle, I do not want to put him in the slot only to move him outside a year later.
     
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  20. Csonka Marino

    Csonka Marino Season Ticket Holder

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    Not worth it, but I hope I am wrong.
     
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  21. Phinz13

    Phinz13 Active Member

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    Can we acknowledge the fact that the addition of Waddle + Fuller greatly improve our run game as well - just sayin'
     
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  22. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Franchise tag for WR is about $16.5M and a transition tag is about $14M. With the cap increase Miami should be in a good position to negotiate and keep him if they want. Right now Dolphins have $64M in cap space with 46 players signed next year. Those numbers will probably change as they renegotiate some contracts. Having a QB on a rookie contract is huge.
     
  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I am surprised by his strength
     
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  24. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    An analysis

     
  25. Kud_II

    Kud_II Wtf is this curse you Gave me Lord? Club Member

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    Ay don't get it twisted, I am 'excited' about Waddle. I simply do not think the 3rd best WR (imo) certainly not the 1st. The safe pick was Chase so he was arguably first. I think Devonta will prove to be better than Waddle in the NFL (although I hope I'm wrong as a fin fan that's my objective opinion, that does not mean Waddle won't be solid)

    Anyway his speed alone is enough to be excited. 4.2 40? get real?! I am excited. And he seems like a good guy and I will pray for his success... But as a an objective football analysis standpoint and Dolfan, he was simply not worth the ultimate price we ended up paying, hard to say he was even worth #6 nevermind 2 firsts... big I digress, don't misconstrue me not thinking it was our best pick with me being/not being excited about the player himself. Thanks bud.

    Yes I am excited to see what our coaches can mold Waddle into. I just need time to simmer in a post draft I disagreed with our most valuable pick yet again... bitter pill to swallow as a fan you understand?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2021
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  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If you watch Waddle's film (not highlight tapes, but actual film) and watch him run routes, very rarely will you be able to say he's covered. He's wide open on just about every single snap within the first few steps, which is why Miami sees so much upside there. This kid will have an immediate impact on our offense and really help move the chains on a consistent basis.

    I fully understand the love affair folks here have with Pitts and Chase, but I think Waddle is easily the best fit for Tua in 2021. We'll see what happens but I don't think we will regret this pick anytime soon.
     
  27. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I am a Will Fuller guy, and I think those numbers are ridiculous. Generally speaking, the numbers that Agholar and Corey Davis got were absurd. $10 mil/yr feels "about right" for Fuller. If he stayed healthy this year, and only missed the one game for his suspension, I do not think I would christen him as healthy all of a sudden.

    My hope, which I do think is reasonable, is that Bowden continues his development and emerges as a starter, and we have him on the ultra-cheap.
     
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  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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  29. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    The main problem I have with the waddle pick is not that I think he is a bad player, it's just that we gave up too much (two first rounders) to select a slot receiver sixth overall. I just don't value the slot position as much as the dolphins seem to. Even if the slot receiver is now viewed as a starter, it still is not as high a value a position to justify picking a guy like that sixth overall. You need a unique combination of size, speed and ball skills in order to be a good boundary receiver, which is not the same requirement there is for the slot, hence the lesser value. It's the same difference between the value placed on a left tackle, vs a center or guard. They are both starting positions, but it takes an elite combination of size and athleticsm to play LT that is not required for center or guard, which is why you never see centers or guards picked in the top 10 no matter how good they are.

    That and the fact that it's the second year in a row where we use our first pick on an undersized player coming off injury are my main gripes with the pick.
     
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  30. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Injury concern is a real thing and I completely agree- I have concerns there as well (w/ Tua and Waddle). Maybe it's not logical but they exist anyway.

    You guys have to lose this "two 1st rounders" thing though- we wanted to trade back to the 6, 7, 8 area of the draft and there weren't any takers. We only agreed to that trade to #12 after we already had the #6 lined up. I can see where you'd say it cost us two picks, but that's not the end result- we turned #3 into #6 and another 1st and a 3rd, which is fair value for that move. The alternative was to pick Waddle at #3 and gain nothing extra, because we were picking Waddle either way.

    But let's talk out your other complaint- a small receiver is not worth a high 1st rounder. Given that Miami had already decided that they liked Eichenberg and would take him in the 2nd, who do you take besides Waddle? Because if you say we should have sat at #3 for Pitts/Chase, then you're going back on what you just said....don't draft a receiver that high. But we weren't going to take Sewell, we weren't going to take a QB, so they pick from a value standpoint had to be either a QB, a WR or Parsons at LB. But if we did go Parsons at 3 or 6, then you almost have to go Bateman, Toney or another WR at #18 and it's a completely different draft board.

    One more thing, Waddle is not limited to being a slot receiver...he played plenty of snaps outside at Alabama. Slot feels like where he naturally fits in our offense because of his size, but I really do believe that he could be a true #1 receiver at the pro level. It's just a different type of offense we're building around Tua to make that happen.

    Again, watch footage of Waddle being covered by Surtain or any of the top college corners that just went in the 1st round. It didn't matter if Waddle was outside or slot, he completely shook the coverage in his first few steps and exploded downfield or across the seam. He was great even on contested catches or bad throws...the kid really is the total package. If not for the injury, I think he would have had the Heisman last season over Smith...he's just a superior athlete and proved to be their true #1 on most downs.

    I know that I won't change a lot of people's minds in pre-season, but I have a feeling that this kid is going to grow on you quickly once you see him flash- he's a legit superstar and he's only going to get better competing against Jones and Howard every day.
     
  31. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Waddle will likely feature in this first show:





    Interview with Waddle:
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  32. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I think the issue with this draft is there was no clear cut top 5 defensive player like a Garrett, Young, Bosa or Williams type player. Clearly we weren’t taking a QB. So then your only options are WR or OT. You already answered the OT question so then it’s what do you believe about the WR/Te that would have been available at 3. Clearly Grier was going Waddle the whole time.

    Many of us would rather have Chase or Pitts over Waddle plus future draft picks. The only case I’ll say against that is if Tua isn’t the answer, that draft capital could be used to move up.
     
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  33. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I’m curious...had social media been around at the time, I wonder how many 49er fans would have been Debbie downers on Jerry Rice?

    I wonder how many Falcons fans would have been Debbie downers of Deion Sanders?

    I wonder how many Dolphins fans would have been Debbie downers on either of the Marks Brothers?

    Now am I saying Waddle warrants being compared to those greats as I write this? Not at all. Like any other player in the league, he has to earn his stripes but what does indeed get me is how many are so adamantly against this pick...so many saying what’s wrong with him and only a very handful saying what’s GOOD about him.

    Tagovailoa and Waddle played together at Alabama and played quite well. The two know each other well and I’m eager to see what their reunion can do for Miami.
     
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  34. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    How many Dolphins fans would have been high on Charles Harris? Dion Jordan? Ted Ginn?

    I think being a Johnny Sunshine is helpful to morale, but I think it has been detrimental for quite some time. One area where I think that Ross has gotten better is that he is a lot less loyal. I do think that the fans helped him grow in this way.

    It took forever to get rid of Jeff Ireland.

    Dion Jordan was given chance after chance. Joe Philibin was around for way too long.

    I think the corner was hopefully finally turned with Gase. I really thought that Ross was going to give him an another year. We even wound up ditching guys that played reasonably well this year because of their salaries.

    I also think that the fanbase has every right to be skeptical about draft choices. I'd say we have been a below average drafting team in the last twenty years. The best players that we have drafted are not on our team (I will give Grier a pass on Tunsil because that is one of the best trades of all time).
     
  35. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And if he turns out to be our very own version of Tyreek Hill, how would you feel then? I think that's his potential; now whether that comes to fruition or not who knows. Many thought Grant could have had that potential as well, but that just hasn't been the case either so we all know this could go either way.

    I think if you look at the offensive unit as a whole though, the addition of Waddle could mean remarkable things. You've got Parker who's got size and has shown ability the last two years. You're adding in Fuller with size and speed. You've still got Gesicki & now Long. Then throw a guy like Waddle into the mix and you've got some pretty nasty matchups for the D to have to face here. I know that doesn't help justify him at 6, but if he turns out to be dynamic playmaker and game changer similar to Hill then I dont think anyone ever will complain about what pick we used on him.

    In a sense I agree about taking a player like Waddle at 6. It's high for a smaller "slot" receiver, traditionally you'd see the guys with size and speed aka true #1's considered that high. However I do think his perceived talent to teams around the league meant that Waddle wasn't lasting long regardless because I think many out there view him as being able to add the Tyreek Hill type dimension to your offense. I think though that you have to look at this as a different scenario here.

    Not trying to convince you or anything, but I think that's just how they feel about it. Tua's strength is really throwing to guys like him, so why not take the best one you can? Our offense has been so stale and stagnant because we have no speed threat that can consistently catch, and run after the catch or even get open deep and take the top off the defense to open thing up underneath for the pass and the run. I think Waddle can do that for us and that's why they were willing to take him at 6. If they didn't, I'm almost certain someone else would have very soon.
     
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  36. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Skeptical? Sure...none of the league's rookie picks are proven, including Trevor Lawrence. What happened in college is great but this is literally a different ballgame. Everyone should be skeptical.

    But at the same time, they shouldn't be cynical. I've heard several say, "I hate this pick because we should have taken that guy." I get that attitude, but you can't fault our front office for doing what they feel is best. If the picks wash out, then yeah, let's scream bloody murder for a regime change...but a few days after the draft is not the time to have that attitude.

    So sure, be skeptical all you want...that's a good thing. But this rage some folks are showing here is plain silly. Coming off a 10 win season, a repeat of that means that we're a legitimate contender this year. If we stink, then rally the pitchforks...I'm all in on that with the naysayers to run Grier out of town. But I want to see what these last two draft classes delivers though before we take the nuclear option.
     
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  37. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    To that point though I also think Ross can look at his organization now and feel like the football people are actually on the same page. I don't think we ever had that with Ireland, Philbin, Gase, Tannenbaum, I think those guys were all so hell bent on pointing the finger at anyone they could when things went sideways and Ross being a loyal guy had to pick a side he felt he could trust and ride it out. It became apparently clear that it wasn't working, so he took another guy who's been loyal to the organization in Greir and made him the guy, and then got the coach that would pair well. I think when you look at the videos of our draft room from the last two years it's pretty clear that these guys are working well together on the same page and are ecstatic over their choices. They may be wrong; nobody ever bats 100% in the draft that's for sure, but at least they're working together to try and execute a plan. I get it.. big deal! However I think in this business nobody knows if it's the right plan or the right choices until you get them into the system and onto the field; you're just making your best decisions on the evaluation criteria you had to fit that plan/vision for your roster.

    I think the biggest problem with fans and their skepticism though is caused by the simple fact that we're fans. We have our own choices and picks based on who we're fans of. Whether just because of the school they went to, or because we feel that's the direction they should have gone. For example a RB at #18 instead of Jaelen Philips. Issue there though is while as fans we have our own idea and plans for how to build this, but it's really based on our own preferences. We don't actually know what the coaching staff is hoping to accomplish and the types of players they actually want on the roster; nor do we know about the medicals, interviews and the countless other things teams have access to. The way I see it is fans want guys they feel passionate about for whatever reason. Our GM and coach though are selecting guys based on talent, their planned schemes for offense and defense, their locker room chemistry, preferred talents and skills of the coaching staff and multiple scouts. All of which we aren't privy to the behind the scenes.

    So for some fans who "trust the process" I think it's just because they've kept that last part in mind; for those who want to complain about every single pick I think it gets interpreted by other fans as "Oh, OK. Cry because they didn't pick the player you wanted" because at the end of the day none of us know who's going to be better than the other at the next level and we don't know what the coaches have in mind for the particular player in their scheme and systems. I just think the teams are making their decisions on far more factual things than what us as fans sit back and think.

    I don't know, rambling now I guess (because I want to avoid working lol) but that's kind of how I look at alot of the post draft rants & why I tend to give the teams the benefit of the doubt. Now, if we were having a discussion of our team picking Jamarcus Russel over Andrew Luck; then yeah... it's perfect to question the team :lol: However think back to Ginn over Quinn in 2017. How many people lost their minds we didn't take Quinn. I can tell you it was plenty if you weren't around here or the other place then. How'd that work out for any of us? Ginn was essentially a non-factor for us but he's managed to put together a nice career for himself & Quinn.... well we all know how that worked out. He's far better in media than he ever was as a QB.

    I prefer not to sit here and talk about who we didn't pick; although I do have some disagreements with our choices. However I prefer to sit here now and look at who we picked, and figure out how they fit and why we made the choices we did. Different perspectives for everyone. I also think sometimes how the fan lays out their rant/complain has alot to do with it. "That's stupid! we should have picked ______" Is generally never going to go well places like this. The thread that actually explains the reasons and how the drafted player does/doesn't fit compared to how the player the fan want does/doesn't fit generally goes over much better.
     
  38. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    The thing I like about it is it gives the players the best chance to succeed. When the GM has visions of people that is different than the coaches, you get this weird power struggle that just hurts the players. Some players can get through this, some cannot.

    This can lead to ruining a players career or they career doesn't take off until they leave that hostile environment.

    The last two years saw little to know powerstruggle. Since JJ has left the team I agree with you in the sense that this is the first time there is little to now power struggle. There is no, "GM wants to make a move but Wanny gets hesitant and we are stuck with Fiedler instead of Hasslebeck" type moments.

    When a player is picked up or drafted both the GM and the Coach have an idea of what is going to happen. It doesn't always work out, but it is nice to have a situation where there isn't any turmoil in the front office.
     
  39. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Found a good breakdown of Waddle's route running.


     
    Puka-head likes this.
  40. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    2,886
    1,829
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    Great post! Your last sentence perfectly sums how I felt about Tua and now feel about Waddle. At this point, I’ve got no choice but to root for both of them and let time show whether Grier made the right picks or not.
     

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