Per Marvez: Dolphins, Hartline Nearing Multi Year Agreement

Big Ben essentially played in 11 games, 10 of which Wallace played in.
In 4 of Wallace's 15 games he had Leftwich and Batch throwing him the ball. And Big Ben played severely hurt in how many games? That could account for all the incomplete passes. Or it could not.
Just trying to show stats can be made to look anyway you want.
Or if I want to go one step further, those numbers above show me that Wallace averaged almost 10 YPC more than Hartline on his deep balls.

 

One trick, yep and Earl Thomas is too small.

 

In Jeff Ireland's mind, Richard Marshall is a #2 corner. In all 31 other teams' minds, he's not. He had two teams calling him as a free agent, the Cardinals and the Dolphins. The Cardinals gave him a low offer to be their #3 corner. The Dolphins gave him a much higher offer...to be their #3 corner. Whether he ended up the #2 or not because of a combination of Vontae disappointing with his attitude and getting traded, is really irrelevant.

 

IMO, unless he was totally comfortable with Marshall as the #2, he does not trade Davis.

 

I'd be content to move Marshall to FS, not re-sign Clemons, cut Patterson, and then go at both starting corner positions & nickel from scratch.

 

Make a play for Bradley Fletcher and see if Chris Gamble wants to give us a discount.

 

I agree with this. IMO, Marshall will either be the #2 corner or he's cut.

 

How anyone can say we need a DE more so than a playmaking WR or TE is beyond me.

 

I hope we sign bhart to two 6 million dollar a year contracts. So, they pay simultaneously.

 

That's not what I'm saying. And Andy Reid seemed to fit Desean Jackson in his offense pretty well, and he obviously has a limited route tree.

 

I know Philbin and Ireland went over every player's performance together after the season ended. I am hoping Philbin disabused Jeff of some of his mis-assessments of players.

 

I don't agree and I don't think the team does either. Ireland was talking about the team needing playmakers and defined it to include players who disrupt the passer (among others). I also heard a report that Philbin and Ireland had talked about adding a pass rusher as one of their off-season priorities.

 

They'll definitely add a pass rusher. A nickel pass rusher. But that doesn't make it a need. We have legitimate holes at LT, WR, TE, CB, and FS. No one is manning those positions. Those are your needs. I don't see how adding a nickel pass rusher to replace Odrick on passing downs is more important than finding starters.

 

Impact. In an extreme example if we didn't have a kicker signed it still wouldn't be a priority over a pass rusher. As for the positions you mentioned, we have players, whether they're starters is a matter of opinion. I see Martin as the starter at LT. Jerry and Yeatman are options at RT. According to the OP we may have a starter in Hartline. They could consider Clay, Patterson, Marshall and Amaya starters. I personally wouldn't consider them all starters, but I also don't think Odrick should be a starter. Basically, I would say that all of those (including DE) are positions that need to be upgraded. And if I wanted to upgrade the position, I would probably target one of the DEs in the first or if none fell Carradine in the second. I would use other early picks on WR and FS. I would use FA to add CBs (mid level) and a receiving TE. I would also use a late pick on a TE.

 

I think they make investments in the DL this offseason.

 

The playoffs and the regular season are different. It's nice that Boldin can get above the hump and play well then, but given Hartline hasn't had the same opportunity there is no equal ground for comparison. And frankly, Boldin's regular season performances as a Raven have not been particularly inspiring.

 

So, does Big Ben come with Wallace? Because last year showed just how ineffective Wallace can be when he doesn't have the league's best improviser at quarterback for the entire season. The trade off here is you limit your ability to run a complete route tree and also adversely effect the timing aspect of your offensive system for more down the field ability in an offense that doesn't throw it down the field that often.

I'm just really curious how Miami is going to maintain a timing oriented, conceptual based passing offense with a receiver that can only run 2-3 routes effectively.

 

See, I think they do consider Odrick a starter. I think Odrick is the prototype DE that Coyle wants in his defense.

Like I said, I think they keep him there and go with some one like Barnes as a nickel pass rusher. I do not think they'll move Odrick.

 

That may be the case, but there is no reason to believe they will be averse to building on their strength. They could very likely go after a guy like John Abraham as a nickel rusher.

 

DeSean Jackson is not a straight line athlete like Mike Wallace. He has tremendous short area quickness that allows him to run crips, sharp breaking routes. He's not just a vertical threat. Now, his size limits him, but his route tree is not limited like Wallace's. Mike Wallace may be one of the worst route runners in football right now.

 

Yea. I literally said that in the post you quoted.

 

Which means the Dolphins wouldn't be in the market for a corner this off season if they kept Sean Smith? So let's say they sign someone like Derek Cox to replace Sean Smith, they're done at the position? You want to bet on that?

 

I would be content with that as well if we could be sure that Marshall's back is healthy.

 

How can you say that Vontae Davis was adequately replaced with Richard Marshall, and then turn around and put Richard Marshall's being released as essentially a coin flip? That's blatantly contradictory.

 

I think that's an exaggeration. Mike Wallace is not the best route runner, but he is not the worst either. Everyone has this idea that all he does is run vertical and that simply isn't true. In the middle of 2011 KC Joyner wrote an article about how Mike Wallace was better than Calvin Johnson and used his metrics to back it up. Now obviously that statement is ridiculous and he is constantly reminded of how wrong he was. But reading through his article you can see that Wallace is still a high impact WR at different levels.

These were his findings at the time (six weeks into the season).

At that time he was very productive, and more efficient than Calvin Johnson, in both short and medium passes. The fact that through 6 games he was targeted 33 times on passes shorter than 20 yards tells you he does more than just run a nine route every play.

 

If they bring him aboard I guess we'll end up finding out, eh. Definitely will be interesting to see what they have in mind if it indeed does happen.

 

So, the fact that he rounds off pretty much every sharp breaking route and doesn't run them at the proper depth means nothing with regards to his fit in a timing based offense. Which version of the west coast offense has receivers that routinely do not run crisp, sharp breaking routes at the proper depth?

 

Feb 15th Rotoworld says it sounds like he's "pretty close to 100%" for whatever that means.

 

IMO, if Miami brings him on board, they are doing so against Joe Philbin's and Mike Sherman's wishes, and this will be the first step towards setting up another coaching change in 2 years time.

I bring up Greg Cosell's comments again:

 

I might get tomato'd for this but if Odrick drops 15 pounds and with a year under his belt in Coyle's system, I could very well see him having a breakout season.... or close to it.

 

I don't buy that. A general manager isn't going to pursue a player that the head coach and offensive coordinator tell him doesn't fit in their offense. You're just setting yourself up for failure in that scenario. What would Ireland stand to gain from that? If the Dolphins go after Wallace it will be with the blessing of Philbin and Sherman and would mean they think they will find a way to utilize his talents.

 

Why are we kidding ourselves here, if I'm in the position of Ireland, and I have Philbin and Sherman as figureheads and architects of our offense, why the hell would I ever overrule them on a player that they didn't want..not gonna happen unless your a complete fool, I mean try to imagine a scenario where Sherman and Philbin say no and Ireland says you must, ain't gonna happen in this case..

They wanted Hartline, they have an unbeatable advantage in terms of comparing former players to current ones, it's bottom line, they know what they have in Hartline, they like him as their two, and it's obvious they will be looking for their #1..so really, putting this decision strictly on Ireland is a huge stretch imo..

 

So you think they are going to change their philosophy on their passing offense, which is that there is no #1 receiver, and go in a completely different direction, forcing the ball to that "#1" receiver they so desperately want?

 

I promise I just saw your post...same theory apples with Hartline, especially Hartline, they watched and studied him in their offense for a whole year..no brainer imo.

 

So tell me. How do you fit Mike Wallace into a timing based passing west coast style offense knowing that he has a limited route tree?

 

No KB, not necessarily, maybe I shouldn't of used the cliche # 1 receiver quote, my point was they wanted Hartline, Ireland signed him, I'm sure they understand that they need a different dynamic now opposite of him, how much that player will cost has yet to be determined, I certainly don't think we can keep speculating that Jennings wants to get paid 12 mill a year, if he does, they probabaly move in another direction, but I just don't see that kind of figure in Jennings demands considering all the variables in play, including his age, his injury history, and the coach he was with for four years...I believe his price will be lower from what's being put out there, if it's around 8 million we should be all good no?, you would have what you want, and we would all be happy.

 

I think they will sign one UFA and draft a one or two corners. JMO. I really do not mind if you disagree.

 

Even if 30 other GMs did not agree with him, I doubt Ireland really cares. I think he had a conviction about Marshall, and I'd be surprised if he wanted to give up on him already. If his back is sound, and barring injury, I expect him to be a key part of the secondary. Maybe the #2 but no less than the #3.

 

I totally agree. Any WR we sign will be with Philbin's approval. However I do not expect we will sign Wallace.