Patriot Way In Miami, or a new Miami?

"cbrad wrote:

Several things:

1) Not prioritizing something doesn't mean you spend NO resources on it.
2) Since just under 1/4 of all starters are OL you'd expect just under 1/4 of all draft picks to be OL if the team didn't prioritize it. And that's what you see with NE in the time span KeyFin looked at: 10 out of 42 draft picks on OL.
3) You can't ignore draft position. As you guys pointed out they picked Wynn at #23. But he's the only 1st rounder out of 10 draft picks. We had two 1st round picks, at #13 and #19, in that time span. Look at any draft value chart and that #13 alone is worth more than all of NE's draft picks on OL combined outside of Wynn.
4) IF you're going to argue spending even a single 1st rounder on OL in 5 years implies the team is prioritizing OL then we're prioritizing it more than they are.

No NE doesn't "prioritize" OL. In fact, not many teams get away with such little investment in the OL in terms of draft value. And I think what Belichick is doing is smart. I've said this before but we should fix our OL through better coaching and more mid/low round picks, not a bunch of high rounders crowding out drafting skill positions (with LT a possible exception).

Yes, but there's still the matter of drawing some sort of conclusion from this. The Patriots have a luxury to get good play without spending resources. However, what happens when they don't have good play? Do they just deal with it, or do they spend resources? That is more pertinent to the Dolphins right now, I think.

"Disgustipate wrote:

Yes, but there's still the matter of drawing some sort of conclusion from this. The Patriots have a luxury to get good play without spending resources. However, what happens when they don't have good play? Do they just deal with it, or do they spend resources? That is more pertinent to the Dolphins right now, I think.

Not sure they've ever had anywhere near the problems we've had with our OL, at least in the Belichick/Brady/Scarnecchia era. Their coach(es) and QB really help mitigate the fewer resources they've spent on individual OL talent.

We're in rebuilding mode anyway so our problems are deeper than just a bad OL. The most important pieces are HC and QB. HC we've decided on.. now it's QB. If we don't get one this year then next year is a must. So what would you prioritize this year if we don't pick a QB high? OL? Nah.. I'd go for defense. In fact, I'd prefer we plan on getting a mobile QB in the future or one with good pocket awareness to help make the OL "better" than it otherwise would be with someone like Tannehill as QB.

Would it be fair to suggest that Brady has a lot to do with the success of their OL? Why? He is excellent at reading defenses and has the ability to change up the play to one more favorable. This helps the OL because most if not all of the rushers are accounted for. On plays where the defense has an extra guy, Brady has dialed up a nice little screen or short pass to Edleman or someone else to alleviate the pressure. Brady also is very good with the short drop backs. The ball is gone before anyone can get to him.

I also give credit to Gronk. His blocking has got to help out a ton.

"cbrad wrote:

Several things:

1) Not prioritizing something doesn't mean you spend NO resources on it.
2) Since just under 1/4 of all starters are OL you'd expect just under 1/4 of all draft picks to be OL if the team didn't prioritize it. And that's what you see with NE in the time span KeyFin looked at: 10 out of 42 draft picks on OL.
3) You can't ignore draft position. As you guys pointed out they picked Wynn at #23. But he's the only 1st rounder out of 10 draft picks. We had two 1st round picks, at #13 and #19, in that time span. Look at any draft value chart and that #13 alone is worth more than all of NE's draft picks on OL combined outside of Wynn.
4) IF you're going to argue spending even a single 1st rounder on OL in 5 years implies the team is prioritizing OL then we're prioritizing it more than they are.

No NE doesn't "prioritize" OL. In fact, not many teams get away with such little investment in the OL in terms of draft value. And I think what Belichick is doing is smart. I've said this before but we should fix our OL through better coaching and more mid/low round picks, not a bunch of high rounders crowding out drafting skill positions (with LT a possible exception).

You're missing the point here entirely. NE has a solid line with 3rd, 4th and 7th round picks. Four of the five were developed in-house. That's the investment that I'm talking about....they didn't just get lucky in the later rounds. They did their homework, found the right fit for their team and kept bringing in new talent each year to nurture before they had to take the field.

When you look at Miami, we've done the exact opposite. We bring in veteran free agents at a premium while shipping off our younger guys that show potential. There's talk of moving James since he's finishing out his rookie contract....HUGE mistake. Yet we did it with Long, Pouncey, etc. These are 1st round picks that we clearly didn't get first round value for.

Take Pouncey, for example. The first mistake was trading him for a lesser perceived value. The 2nd mistake was "dumping him" before we had a suitable replacement out of the draft. The 3rd mistake was signing a veteran free agent. We just keep having net loss after net loss because we don't prioritize line, we stink at developing it, and then we trade our few decent pieces away for minimal value.

To clarify, burning first round picks on absolute lock linemen is fine- if they're the best available at that point. That approach is a luxury though that most teams cannot afford. That's why NE has taken 9 linemen outside the first two rounds in the same span we've taken just 3.

The Fins have tried everything under the sun on the OL going back a decade, and almost all of it has blown up in their faces. Big picture, looking at that whole time frame, they are on the very, very bottom of the league at the area of the team. I have no idea why, but its absolutely true.

Maybe a new coaching staff will set things in the right direction, but we have a lot of the same people still doing the scouting and player evals.

"KeyFin wrote:

You're missing the point here entirely. NE has a solid line with 3rd, 4th and 7th round picks. Four of the five were developed in-house. That's the investment that I'm talking about....they didn't just get lucky in the later rounds. They did their homework, found the right fit for their team and kept bringing in new talent each year to nurture before they had to take the field.

When you look at Miami, we've done the exact opposite. We bring in veteran free agents at a premium while shipping off our younger guys that show potential. There's talk of moving James since he's finishing out his rookie contract....HUGE mistake. Yet we did it with Long, Pouncey, etc. These are 1st round picks that we clearly didn't get first round value for.

Take Pouncey, for example. The first mistake was trading him for a lesser perceived value. The 2nd mistake was "dumping him" before we had a suitable replacement out of the draft. The 3rd mistake was signing a veteran free agent. We just keep having net loss after net loss because we don't prioritize line, we stink at developing it, and then we trade our few decent pieces away for minimal value.

To clarify, burning first round picks on absolute lock linemen is fine- if they're the best available at that point. That approach is a luxury though that most teams cannot afford. That's why NE has taken 9 linemen outside the first two rounds in the same span we've taken just 3.

Sure but how does any of this support your claim that somehow NE keeps the QB and the 5 linesmen "the same" (or whatever you want to change that to) and that everything else on offense is expendable?

That's simply not true dude. It's ONLY Brady that isn't expendable. The individual linesmen are expendable (just look at the turnover in the rosters), and this idea of NE developing things in house is true for all units except Brady. There's nothing special about OL there.

Brady is special (to Belichick), no other player is on any unit.

"cbrad wrote:

Sure but how does any of this support your claim that somehow NE keeps the QB and the 5 linesmen "the same" (or whatever you want to change that to) and that everything else on offense is expendable?

That's simply not true dude. It's ONLY Brady that isn't expendable. The individual linesmen are expendable (just look at the turnover in the rosters), and this idea of NE developing things in house is true for all units except Brady. There's nothing special about OL there.

Brady is special (to Belichick), no other player is on any unit.

The point I was making is that NE continually invests in (and improves) their line, as does other perceived "elite" teams around the league. The fact that they're finding starters in the late rounds is impressive and it speaks to the entire organization (coaches, scouts and OL players).

Here's where I think we may have a disconnect- do you think Brady would put up similar numbers in Miami behind our line? Think of how many times RT was hit just this final stretch alone by an unblocked defender....you rarely see that in NE. I'm not trying to take anything away from Brady but if we traded QB's, I'm fairly confident that the two team's records wouldn't change by more than a game or two either way.

And as you alluded to, NE has starting receivers that wouldn't make rosters in other cities. Heck, we dumped Hogan straight up....he's a situational starter in NE. Their talent outside Brady on offense is marginal at best....yet their RB's have always looked great and they haven't fumbled the ball. Again, that points to a solid line.

"KeyFin wrote:

The point I was making is that NE continually invests in (and improves) their line, as does other perceived "elite" teams around the league. The fact that they're finding starters in the late rounds is impressive and it speaks to the entire organization (coaches, scouts and OL players).

Here's where I think we may have a disconnect- do you think Brady would put up similar numbers in Miami behind our line? Think of how many times RT was hit just this final stretch alone by an unblocked defender....you rarely see that in NE. I'm not trying to take anything away from Brady but if we traded QB's, I'm fairly confident that the two team's records wouldn't change by more than a game or two either way.

And as you alluded to, NE has starting receivers that wouldn't make rosters in other cities. Heck, we dumped Hogan straight up....he's a situational starter in NE. Their talent outside Brady on offense is marginal at best....yet their RB's have always looked great and they haven't fumbled the ball. Again, that points to a solid line.

Of course Brady would do worse behind our line. But none of that was part of the discussion.

The only issue I have with your stance (at least what you wrote) is that somehow NE is treating the OL differently than they treat other units. The evidence suggests there's nothing special about the OL in Belichick's mind relative to other units (except Brady). He's just a great coach and GM and is capable of getting more with less. So sure their OL is better than ours. Doesn't mean they're prioritizing OL.

"cbrad wrote:

Of course Brady would do worse behind our line. But none of that was part of the discussion.

The only issue I have with your stance (at least what you wrote) is that somehow NE is treating the OL differently than they treat other units. The evidence suggests there's nothing special about the OL in Belichick's mind relative to other units (except Brady). He's just a great coach and GM and is capable of getting more with less. So sure their OL is better than ours. Doesn't mean they're prioritizing OL.

I didn't say they're polarizing either- they're simply dependable year after year. For instance, Brady has zero sacks in the playoffs this season. That''s definitely due to a quick release, but the line plays a big part in that as well.

I can boil it down farther.

The Patriots have Brady and the Spurs had Duncan/Robinson and then Leonard in a star driven league.

The Spurs consistently lost to more talented teams to where it was almost a funny. Now we can see them try and rebuild with their approach to see if it actually works.

Patriots on the other hand have an elite QB and a pushover division every season.

I really dont buy this at all. Most players want to win pretty badly. I'm supposed to believe these teams just have players who "want it more" up and down the roster....what idiocy.

"Unlucky 13 wrote:

No one is going to copy what the Patriots have done, for various reasons. No one is going to replicate that success, and the things that they do and have done are theirs alone.

What I want is for the Miami Dolphins to become successful in their own right, doing things their own way, in a repeatable, respectable, and consistant fashion.

I wouldn't say that Unlucky. In fact, I would make the argument that New England copied Miami's success.

Robert Kraft purchased the Patriots, to have a determined successful owner...just as the Dolphins had in Joe Robbie.
Kraft brought in an established successful coach in Parcells...as Robbie did in bringing in Shula.
The Patriots had success under Bledsoe...as Miami did with Griese.
The Patriots turned the reins over to Brady...as Miami did with Marino.

Yes, I would say there are more similarities that New England copied us for their success. We simply lost great FOOTBALL ownership. The Patriots at least listened to Parcells when he left and hired his selection to succeed him with Belichick where as Miami didn't listen to Shula when he insisted we hire Schottenheimer.

The only way to get the Patriot way is to have Belichick step down and sign with us. So many have tried to copy the Niner way with Walsh’s west coast offense, you cant copy greatness. We have to create our image.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

I can boil it down farther.

The Patriots have Brady and the Spurs had Duncan/Robinson and then Leonard in a star driven league.

The Spurs consistently lost to more talented teams to where it was almost a funny. Now we can see them try and rebuild with their approach to see if it actually works.

Patriots on the other hand have an elite QB and a pushover division every season.

I really dont buy this at all. Most players want to win pretty badly. I'm supposed to believe these teams just have players who "want it more" up and down the roster....what idiocy.

I didn't say anyone suggest that either team has players who want it more. I could have missed someone else saying though, but I certainly didn't.

Although I posted a lot of quotes they were broken down into a few categories that seemed to overlap between commonly beyond hallmarks for both franchises.

A strong coach
Generally drafting high character/intelligent players over less intelligent talented players when both traits weren't present.
A strong emphasis on individual accountability and excellence/mastery in the details.
A team first culture where players have to have gotten over themselves.

On top of those people point to talent/ personnel development, great FO synergy, and the luck to draft a key high character talent who leads.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

I can boil it down farther.

The Patriots have Brady and the Spurs had Duncan/Robinson and then Leonard in a star driven league.

The Spurs consistently lost to more talented teams to where it was almost a funny. Now we can see them try and rebuild with their approach to see if it actually works.

Patriots on the other hand have an elite QB and a pushover division every season.

I really dont buy this at all. Most players want to win pretty badly. I'm supposed to believe these teams just have players who "want it more" up and down the roster....what idiocy.

Idiocy is if you believe a Devante Parker has the same level of commitment as a Cameron Wake.

I absolutely think some players want it more than others and that some value team success over individual success... whereas some others are the opposite, which in turn negatively impacts the team.

I don’t believe the Patriots’ success is tied to just Tom Brady and a weak division.

"Brasfin wrote:

Idiocy is if you believe a Devante Parker has the same level of commitment as a Cameron Wake.

I absolutely think some players want it more than others and that some value team success over individual success... whereas some others are the opposite, which in turn negatively impacts the team.

I don’t believe the Patriots’ success is tied to just Tom Brady and a weak division.

You're talking about extremes though which are easily avoided.

Nice article on "The Patriot Way", or why Belichick is so successful:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-patriots-secret-is-focusing-on-the-details-every-last-detail/2019/01/31/87726362-255d-11e9-ad53-824486280311_story.html?utm_term=.86fce4d8ca83

The title really sums it up: The Patriots' secret is focusing on every little detail, basically outworking the opposition. Players and coaches that have seen how the Patriots practice first hand say there's a marked difference between them and other teams.

Shows why it's so difficult to replicate, even for former assistant coaches. You basically need a hard working and totally driven perfectionist at the helm. Let's hope Flores is that guy.

"cbrad wrote:

Nice article on "The Patriot Way", or why Belichick is so successful:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-patriots-secret-is-focusing-on-the-details-every-last-detail/2019/01/31/87726362-255d-11e9-ad53-824486280311_story.html?utm_term=.86fce4d8ca83

The title really sums it up: The Patriots' secret is focusing on every little detail, basically outworking the opposition. Players and coaches that have seen how the Patriots practice first hand say there's a marked difference between them and other teams.

Shows why it's so difficult to replicate, even for former assistant coaches. You basically need a hard working and totally driven perfectionist at the helm. Let's hope Flores is that guy.

I think he is..

Ugly SB.

NE is now #1 on my most hated teams list pushing out the Jets.

Its like McVay completely forgot he has the best running back in the NFL... barely got touches..

"Vertical Limit wrote:

Its like McVay completely forgot he has the best running back in the NFL... barely got touches..

Goff, and McVay are both overrated IMO.

Goff benefits from McVay treating him like he's a college QB and reading the defenses for him with the staff before the snap, and before the headset shuts off... They do most of the work for him.

I think you can easily say the shine of McVay has been tarnished a bit tonight. There's getting beat by someone better, and there's being incompetent. Through their playoff run, they showed themselves to be the later. I don't think he's what everything thinks. They didn't belong in the game anyways (NO should have been there, same with KC), and they sure as hell showed that tonight.

"cbrad wrote:

Ugly SB.

NE is now #1 on my most hated teams list pushing out the Jets.

They did show up on defense and completely shut the Rams down- I didn't see that coming at all. That was an extremely boring game to sit thru and of course, the ending sucked.

"brandon27 wrote:

Goff, and McVay are both overrated IMO.

Goff benefits from McVay treating him like he's a college QB and reading the defenses for him with the staff before the snap, and before the headset shuts off... They do most of the work for him.

I think you can easily say the shine of McVay has been tarnished a bit tonight. There's getting beat by someone better, and there's being incompetent. Through their playoff run, they showed themselves to be the later. I don't think he's what everything thinks. They didn't belong in the game anyways (NO should have been there, same with KC), and they sure as hell showed that tonight.

What?? Your saying if you had a change to get McVay as the headcoach in Miami you wouldn’t take him since he’s overrated?

Credit where it’s do. I hate The Pats but they are without the best coached football team in my lifetime.

Really hope brian brings some of that to Miami!

Defense . . . it wins championships.

Great fucking game.

"Carmen Cygni wrote:

Defense . . . it wins championships.

Great ****ing game.

I've already shown through historical stats that on average it's offense that's more important in the SB and in the playoffs.

But yes today it was defense that won. Using z-scores we're now at 19 SB's won by defense (z-score for defense was better than z-score for offense) and 34 won by offense. And 8 of the ones won by defense were the 8 consecutive SB's from 1968-1975.

Personally I thought that was an utterly boring game. I've seen exciting defensive games but this wasn't one of them (at least for me).

"cbrad wrote:

I've already shown through historical stats that on average it's offense that's more important in the SB and in the playoffs.

But yes today it was defense that won. Using z-scores we're now at 19 SB's won by defense (z-score for defense was better than z-score for offense) and 34 won by offense. And 8 of the ones won by defense were the 8 consecutive SB's from 1968-1975.

Personally I thought that was an utterly boring game. I've seen exciting defensive games but this wasn't one of them (at least for me).

Exactly it's not like the Patriots made great plays. It looked like the Rams had no idea what they were doing at all.