1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Patriot Way In Miami, or a new Miami?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

    11,678
    7,190
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    Potentially contentious, but with Flores coming in as HC and several current and former Patriots staff joining him, the feeling is that Ross wants some of that Patriots success to come to Miami.

    Now, you can argue it's got nothing to do with New England and is simply about doing things the right way. Fair enough. That is, after all, the bottom line for every franchise, find a way to win, and preferably, win repeatedly.

    Then, there's winning, and then there's the way each franchise works, the culture, the 'way' they win.



    Writers and fans are starting to discuss that more and more and I think it's fair to say that everyone agrees that you can't just 'copy' success. No matter how many Patriots links there are, Miami will never be New England (and think everyone here is happy for that). The question is, what will the new Miami look like? What is it that's been missing in the land of the sun? And can Flores and co. figure out the puzzle?

    Here's one writer's look into Belichick's world, one that Flores and O'Shea have been immersed in:
     
    Surfs Up 99 and KeyFin like this.
  2. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    27,098
    37,025
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I think you can pull the scheme, you can pull some of the coaching and developmental tactics, but you can't sit there and try and replicate the Patriots roster and **** like that. At a certain point it's just cargo cult **** that is devoid of the practical elements.
     
    mbsinmisc likes this.
  3. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

    11,678
    7,190
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    What would be your response to those who would say that Miami is trying to be New England?
     
  4. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    27,098
    37,025
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I don't know that they're trying to be New England at this point any more than a first-time head coach is going to be trying to be the team that they came from and are drawing a lot of their coaching staff and influence from.

    If Brian Flores came in here, got himself installed as a GM, and his personnel patterns come out and directly replicate what the Patriots do, that's something else.
     
    Galant likes this.
  5. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    1,492
    1,426
    113
    May 2, 2014
    SO Cal
    If we go to the AFC championship game 8 out of 10 years and the Superbowl very other year then hell yes bring the Patriot way.
     
  6. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

    753
    717
    93
    Jan 2, 2016
    I am going to let you guys in on a little secret. The Patriots' way is an illusion. Seeing is not believing. When you have the greatest QB to ever play the game, it is easy to be a winner. Couple that with an elite coach, and you have basically created the unstoppable force. We have all heard the adage that winning cures everything. Well, when you have these to parts, you do a lot of winning. All of a sudden, you get the snowball effect. Draft picks tend to pan out on the offensive side of the ball at a higher clip. Is it because they are drafting so well, or is it because they literally being placed in the optimum scenario. And if you look at the evidence, it tells just that is happening. Guys that leave the Patriots wind up falling off the face of the Earth. Also, think about Brady's marriage. He consistently gives the Patriots a home town discount because his wife brings in so much money. Because of that, the Patriots have more money to spend at other positions. Even during years in which the defense was weak, they had Tom Brady to bail them out.

    The thing is there is no replicating this. Flores is not going to come in an bring the greatest QB ever to play. That QB is not going to play at a discount. It is far more likely that we bring in an average guy that looks to maximize his value - see Ryan Tannehill. If you look at our last two coaches, the same false positive caused us to hire them. Philbin was a great coach because he had Rogers, and Gase was great because he had Manning. Once these guys left Valhalla and had to walk with the mortals, they were really quite average.

    The fact of the matter is there is no replicating the Patriot way. Furthermore, even the Patriots will be unable to replicate the Patriot way once Brady is gone.

    Order will soon be restored to the universe.
     
    mbsinmisc and Phin McCool like this.
  7. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

    20,944
    9,755
    113
    Jan 14, 2008
    Alexandria, VA
    The Patriot way is cheating. Is Miami looking to find their own Ernie Adams? Knowing their luck, they'll get pinched for it while the Patriots continue to skate.
     
    RGF, resnor, Puka-head and 1 other person like this.
  8. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,960
    7,933
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    The Patriot way is really the Belichick way. Many assistant coaches have left that team and failed elsewhere. So just because you have experience in the system, just because you helped coach in the system, doesn't mean you can replicate what Belichick is capable of.

    Or at least no one has so far succeeded at that. Hope Flores is the first exception.
     
    resnor, mbsinmisc, Mafioso and 2 others like this.
  9. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

    3,144
    1,632
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    Patriots way is Bill Bellicheck they will not bring that to Miami. While I expect them to implement certain aspects of their routines Flores has to find his own way.

    If you try to come down here and rule like bellicheck with no proven track record the players will never buy in and your regime will be over before it began.
     
    jdallen1222 likes this.
  10. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

    1,595
    1,495
    113
    May 5, 2016
    I disagree. You can have a first time ballot QB, and a first time ballot HC, but they still have to put in the work to be successful. The illusion is thinking that winning games comes easy for them and because they are talented they don't have to work their asses off. I do think they enjoy a certain advantage when it comes to their work culture and that helps with their success. Players and coaches alike know they can't screw off like they could with other teams like the Dolphins. For me, that is what I hope will change. I realize, first, that a you have to win for players to take you seriously, but at the same time everyone in our organization needs to understand that the team comes first, and I don't think we have always had that with the Dolphins. I have no idea how Flores will do. You won't hear me say, I told you so. I just hope we become a smarter organization, learn from our mistakes, and see steady improvement in the years to come.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  11. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    24,807
    25,217
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    No one is going to copy what the Patriots have done, for various reasons. No one is going to replicate that success, and the things that they do and have done are theirs alone.

    What I want is for the Miami Dolphins to become successful in their own right, doing things their own way, in a repeatable, respectable, and consistant fashion.
     
  12. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    1,492
    1,426
    113
    May 2, 2014
    SO Cal
    I see so many players leave and say that they learned how to be real professionals and an approach to the game where they never had that discipline before. THAT is what I want him to bring.
     
    Tin Indian, Mafioso and Surfs Up 99 like this.
  13. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

    12,407
    4,999
    113
    Oct 13, 2008
    New York
    As much as I hate to say it, it is Brady and Belichick together. Regardless of the Cassell year, it is most certainly that combo and it may be even more of Tom I Eat Avacado Flavored Ice Cream Out Of My Boyfriends Bunghole Brady than Belichick.
     
  14. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    6,007
    7,748
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    That SOUNDS GREAT....but it's really total BS. Every team in every league wants to be the Patriots, the Lebron-era Heat, etc. Plain and simple, we've had zero consistency at QB, O line, linebacker, corner, or coaching for almost 20 years now. Gase coached 11 total games with his starting offense healthy....and he was 10-1 in those matches (the only loss was at NE). To me, that does not scream "fire everyone and start over".....that means to get a younger, healthier line in place so we have actual building blocks.

    That's the one thing that doesn't change in NE- Brady and five linemen. Every other piece of that offense is expendable as long as the core six are in place.....and from there the Pats focused on defense BPA. It's not rocket science at all since you can see the same trends with all the league's hottest teams in any given year....protect your QB, invest in linemen and defenders. Brady's backups for the past few years? They're undefeated. Why? Five stud linemen that work together.

    And that's why this rebuild is complete BS- we're still not focused on what actually matters. Speeches about respectable, repeatable moves are great and all....but we're about to have one less core piece by dumping Tannehill. I just don't believe in the "Let's go backwards and the new coach will make us awesome" speech- they're selling a pipe dream and Ross is dumb enough to believe it.
     
    Pauly, resnor and mbsinmisc like this.
  15. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,960
    7,933
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    That's not true. The ONLY player Belichick won't get rid of is Brady. Everyone else, even in their prime (or near the end of it) has been expendable to Belichick if he thinks he can get something worthwhile in return.

    Specifically w.r.t. linesmen, just look at their 2018 roster vs. 2014. Not a single starter on the OL that's the same. Regarding OL, NE has some stability in that they tend to have a similar group over several years, but look over 5+ years and they've basically created a new OL.
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2018_roster.htm
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2014_roster.htm

    It's the Belichick and Brady show.
     
    Pauly likes this.
  16. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

    1,595
    1,495
    113
    May 5, 2016
    So it's the system and team culture, not the players?
     
    Pauly likes this.
  17. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

    11,678
    7,190
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    WARNING, this is going to be a long post. Most of it will be quotes from great articles, not me, so I can honestly recommend you read the quotes, or better yet, the articles - at least, if you want to get some insight into sports leadership, coaching and culture from some of the most successful, record-setting, trend setting leadership. I'll try to summarise it at the top for those who want to TLDR, but honestly, if you take 15 or 30 mins or whatever to read the quotes/articles, it'll be worth it.

    I don't know if anyone has read the two articles posted, but there are some elements to what's described in Belichick's approach that are familiar. The Patriots are sometimes called the Spurs of the NFL, or the Spurs the Patriots of the NBA. As a Spurs fan I reject that the two franchises are the same, seeing big differences between the two organisations. Nevertheless, there are still a number of striking similarities between the two franchises that may be worth noting.

    On the surface, both franchises have achieved long term success in their leagues, both have coaches who are infamously grumpy with the press, those coaches are both defensively minded and yet also very flexible in their approach. Both franchises are talked about for their 'system' and for getting quality performance out of players that vanish on other teams.

    I won't go into the differences, because this isn't an NBA or Spurs forum and no one needs to hear me ranting about the Patriots vs. Spurs.

    Instead, I'd like to highlight some things I read in those articles about the Patriots that correspond with an approach that is the foundational philosophy/approach for the Spurs as well.

    First, a summary piece that has compared the Pats and Spurs to find similarities, then some more specific headings and quotes for those who want to read on.

    "Pioli is very familiar with both clubs.

    He was with the Patriots from 2000-08 and has had many discussions about team building with Buford, a close friend.

    "Having a locker room that is dominated by the right kind of people and the right makeup is just as important as talent if you want to sustain championship level football or basketball," said Pioli, now assistant general manager of the Atlanta Falcons. "The key (was) to make sure that we went out and got players that loved and were willing to commit to football the way that the head coach would. And that's what San Antonio does."

    "Belichick and Popovich are the longest serving active coaches in their leagues. They demand precision in practices and games, stress team over individual success and treat their stars like their other players.

    When they mess up, Brady and Duncan hear about it.

    "The Spurs and the Patriots have a collection of guys that are over themselves," said Los Angeles Clippers coach Doc Rivers, who became friendly with Belichick while coaching the Boston Celtics. "Pop talks about that all the time, and so does Belichick: 'I need guys to be over themselves and about the team.'"

    ""When you have a superstar player that is humble and buys in and is willing to do what's best for the team, that sets the tone for the rest of the team," Patriots special teams star Matthew Slater said. "Looking at Tim Duncan from afar, you definitely see that. And then being in the locker room with Thomas, it's the same thing.""

    ""Your success is very much dependent on the person next to you and their ability and dependability in those two sports," Pioli said. "It's about the players being able to respond to the great leader.""
    https://www.oregonlive.com/nfl/index.ssf/2014/12/san_antonio_spurs_new_england.html


    Here are some short quotes from the OP articles from the Pats perspective:

    Team First:
    “It means putting the team first,” Flores said this week during a break in preparation for the Sunday’s Super Bowl against the Los Angeles Rams. “It means being selfless. It means ignoring the noise around and just focusing on our team.

    "Do Your Job/Individual Accountability":
    "Everything’s built on individual accountability. I believe that. Everybody’s trusting each other to do their job and do it at a high level.

    “It’s your job to go do it. I don’t think it’s complicated. It’s something that’s easier said than done. You have to have the right commitment.”


    Strong Leader/Demand for Excellence:
    “I think the most important thing to any of that is you have to have a strong leader, and I believe we have that in Bill Belichick,” O’Shea said. “He holds everyone accountable on a daily basis. He’s never going to waver from that.

    “He’s never going to set his sights on anything but the highest level. He has high standards. He’s very demanding. I can’t say enough great things about Bill Belichick and what he’s done here in my time here of building a winning football team and I think it’s all based on individual accountability. Everybody doing their job.”


    "New England has been top five in fewest penalties per game in three of the past four seasons.
    And they are traditionally in the top 10 fewest penalized teams."


    Intelligence/Character over Talent:
    “If you’re talking intelligence, we loved great players who are smart. That was easy,” the source said. “But you can’t always have it all. If it comes down to a great player who isn’t smart versus a good player who is smart, we’d usually pick the good player who is smarter. “Because we believed those players could be developed and reach a higher ceiling than the dummies who were stronger, faster and could jump higher but couldn’t figure out how tie their shoelaces, much less figure out what the right technique or assignment was.”


    And for those interested, here are some longer quotes from the Spurs perspective on similar values/traits:

    Pounding the rock/Excellence:
    There is a credo that is famous in the Spurs organisation - it speaks to Popovich's demand for excellence and persistence, and that the details matter. Do everything well, do it persistently, and success will come. I include some extended quotes below, you can TLDR it but IMO they're worth the read and the articles they come from.

    "SAN ANTONIO — In a corner of the San Antonio Spurs’ locker room, there is a framed quotation from the muckraking social reformer Jacob Riis.

    “When nothing seems to help,” it reads, “I go back and look at the stonecutter hammering away at his rock perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundred and first blow it will split in two, and I know it was not that blow that did it — but all that had gone before.”

    This being the Spurs, with their internationally flavored roster, Riis’s words are translated into French, Spanish and Portuguese on plaques in the hall outside the locker room. If that does not make it clear how important this philosophy is to the team’s core mission, then consider the name of Coach Gregg Popovich’s small wine label: Rock and Hammer.

    In a locker room soaked in beer and Champagne late Sunday night after the Spurs had vanquished the Miami Heat in five games, wrapping up their fifth N.B.A. championship in 15 seasons, there was satisfaction in Riis’s words.The clinching victory, which came after an early 16-point deficit, and this season, which began with the lingering devastation of last season’s collapse in the N.B.A. finals, were a paean to those virtues.

    “Whenever I’m done with this game, that’s going to be hanging up in my house for my kids to read the rest of my life,” forward Matt Bonner said, taking a swig of beer and nodding at the framed quotation. “The lesson in that sign is why we can start out the way we did tonight and come back and win by 20 points — keep pounding the rock.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/17/sports/basketball/spurs-title-is-a-victory-for-persistence.html

    ""Pounding the Rock" - this phrase is ubiquitous in the Spurs organization, as entrenched in the culture as the team colors. Rarely does a day go by where "we just have to keep pounding the rock" isn't heard coming from the lips of a player or referenced by a journalist...
    "I thought it embodied anyone's effort in any endeavor, really. It doesn't have to be basketball. It can be a musical instrument, or it can be learning mathematics, or going to law school or figuring out how to turn the water off in your house when you're an idiot. You just keep looking, you keep trying, and you keep going." (Popovich)

    https://www.poundingtherock.com/201...biography-pounding-the-rock-stonecutter-credo

    And here it is again more recently:

    "For a while, DeMar DeRozan thought Dwane Casey was a motivational genius.
    When Casey arrived as DeRozan’s coach in Toronto in 2011, he had a giant boulder delivered to Raptors headquarters and unveiled a completely original, highly inspired theme that would come to define his tenure there: “Pound the Rock.”
    “I thought it sent a great message,” said DeRozan, now in his first season with the Spurs. “Then I came here in the preseason and found out Pop was the one who kind of started it.”

    Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been preaching the gospel of pounding the rock since long before DeRozan was in the NBA.
    In a season of unprecedented change around the franchise, with a veritable Mount Rushmore of familiar faces now gone, one thing has remained constant for the Spurs. The quote from 19th century social reformer Jacob Riis that inspired “pounding the rock” still hangs in the Spurs’ locker room at the AT&T Center, translated into multiple languages. And Popovich expects his new team to follow it, same as the old ones did. “When you first walk in, you see the signs,” said forward Dante Cunningham, also in his first season with the Spurs. “I think Coach Pop will tell you, it’s not from Toronto. It started here.”

    Indeed, Popovich found it funny in 2016 when he went to coach the All-Star game in Canada and stumbled upon Casey’s boulder at the Air Canada Centre. Longtime Spurs, of which there are not many left, can probably recite the Riis quote by heart: “When nothing seems to help, I go and look at a stonecutter hammering away at his rock, perhaps 100 times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the 101st blow it will split in two, and I know it was not the last blow that did it, but all that had gone before.”"


    https://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/Even-in-a-new-era-Spurs-keep-pounding-13343671.php

    Strong Leader
    "It also raises a question: What’s the secret to their winning culture? To find the answer, you have to go inside their practice. On the day I visited, the mood was tense. The night before, the Spurs had lost to their archrival Oklahoma City Thunder. There was a tightness in the air, a quiet tension. Then coach Gregg Popovich walked into the gym.

    "In an age when many coaches favor a softer, gentler approach to leadership, Popovich is famous for his blunt, intense style. Some of his more memorable tirades are collected on YouTube, under titles such as “Popovich Yells and Destroys Thiago Splitter,” “Popovich Tells Danny Green to Shut the F— Up” and “Popovich Furious at Tony Parker.”"

    But Popovich wasn’t yelling now. He was walking around, wearing a misshapen T-shirt from Jordan’s Snack Bar in Ellsworth, Maine, and shorts a couple sizes too big. His hair was spare and frizzy, and he was carrying a paper plate with fruit and a plastic fork, his face set in a lopsided grin. He looked less like a commanding general than a friendly uncle at a picnic. Then he set down his plate and began to move around the gym, talking to players. He touched them on the elbow, the shoulder, the arm. He chatted in several languages. (The Spurs include players from five countries.) He laughed. His eyes were bright, knowing, active.

    When Popovich wanted to connect with a player, he moved in tight enough that their noses nearly touched. As warm-ups continued, he kept roving, connecting. A former player walked up, and Popovich beamed, his face lighting up in a toothy grin. They talked for five minutes, catching up on life, kids and teammates. “Love you, brother,” Popovich said as they parted.

    “A lot of coaches can yell or be nice, but what Pop does is different,” said assistant coach Chip Engelland. “He delivers two things over and over: he’ll tell you the truth, with no BS, and then he’ll love you to death.”

    "A few years back a team of psychologists from Stanford, Yale and Columbia discovered that one particular form of teacher feedback boosted student effort and performance so immensely that they deemed it “magical feedback.” The feedback was not complicated. In fact, it consisted of one simple phrase.


    I’m giving you these comments because I have very high expectations and I know that you can reach them.

    That’s it. Just 19 words. None of these words contain any information on how to improve. Yet they are powerful because they deliver a cultural signal:
    1. You are part of this group.
    2. This group is special; we have high standards here.
    3. I believe you can reach those standards.
    Alone, each of these signals would have a limited effect. But together they create a steady stream of magical feedback. For the Spurs, every dinner, every elbow touch, every impromptu seminar on politics and history adds up to build and reinforce a narrative: You are part of this group. This group is special. I believe you can meet our high standards.

    In other words, the Spurs don’t succeed because they are good at basketball. They succeed because they are skilled at a far more important sport: building strong relationships."

    http://time.com/5125421/gregg-popovich-san-antonio-spurs-success/


    Intelligence and Character over Talent:
    On the Riis quote, the stone cutter's creed, "Pop said, "I thought this (quote) was maybe a little more intelligent, a different way to get to the guys and make them think about things.""

    "On Friday, reporters asked Gregg Popovich what kinds of qualities the Spurs look for in players (and staff), and his response was long, enlightening, and, oddly, inspiring (via ESPN's Baxter Holmes):

    "For us, it's easy. We're looking for character, but what the hell does that mean? We're looking for people — and I've said it many times — [who] have gotten over themselves, and you can tell that pretty quickly. You can talk to somebody for four or five minutes, and you can tell if it's about them, or if they understand that they're just a piece of the puzzle. So we look for that. A sense of humor is a huge thing with us. You've got to be able to laugh. You've got to be able to take a dig, give a dig — that sort of thing. And [you have to] feel comfortable in your own skin that you don't have all the answers. [We want] people who are participatory. The guys in the film room can tell me what they think of how we played last night if they want to. [Former Assistant GM] Sean Marks would sit in on our coaches' meetings when we're arguing about how to play the pick-and-roll or who we're going to play or who we're going to sit.

    "We need people who can handle information and not take it personally because in most of these organizations, there's a big divide. All of the sudden, the wall goes up between management and coaching and everybody is ready to blame back and forth and that's the rule rather than the exception. It just happens. But that's about people. It's about finding people who have all of those qualities. So, we do our best to look for that and when somebody comes, they figure it out pretty quick.

    However, it's clear that more than talent, Popovich and the Spurs have made a system where if players act selflessly, they will benefit. They've created an enviable culture and workplace, and the qualities they demand in players are qualities that are desirable outside of sports, too."

    https://www.businessinsider.com/gregg-popovich-explains-qualities-spurs-look-for-in-players-2016-2

    "A few minutes earlier, Popovich had delivered another signal. It happened when the team gathered in the video room, expecting to review the Oklahoma City loss. But when the lights dimmed, the screen flickered with a CNN documentary on the 50th anniversary of the Voting Rights Act. The team watched in silence as the story unfolded: Martin Luther King, Jr., Lyndon Johnson and the Selma marches. When it was over, Popovich asked questions. He always asks questions, and those questions are always the same: personal, direct, focused on drawing a connection between the historical moment and the individual players. What did you think of it? What would you have done in that situation?"
    http://time.com/5125421/gregg-popovich-san-antonio-spurs-success/


    "Seven years ago, at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in Boston, I saw Jeff Van Gundy, an ESPN analyst and former coach of the New York Knicks and Houston Rockets, speak on a panel about what makes a great athlete. Van Gundy said that when he was a coach, he looked for players who, if you put a copy of USA Today in front of them, would pick up the sports page and ignore the rest. He wanted his players to be interested in two things: “Chasing women and basketball.” His words startled me. They seemed to degrade NBA players (not to mention women) and make their lives sound dreary. But Van Gundy was just expressing, in especially blunt fashion, what was once locker-room orthodoxy. The message from many coaches, Robinson says, was “Be an animal. Focus on the game.”
    Popovich has flipped that idea on its head. He wants his players to be fully human. And he’s genuinely curious about them. “I was kind of amazed by how much he wanted to know about you as an individual,” Perdue says. Other coaches, he says, stopped short of where Popovich was willing to go. "

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-01-10/the-five-pillars-of-gregg-popovich

    "Yet his Spurs have not restrained themselves to a hard and fast system as much as they have adapted to win with the parts available.
    Back in 2002-03, when Pop won a title by just running the offense through Duncan at the peak of his powers, San Antonio played at the 11th-slowest pace in the NBA. That stat dropped to seventh in 2004-05 and third in 2006-07 as Pop and Duncan picked up their third and fourth rings. As Duncan aged, however, Pop started having his Spurs play faster. He recognized his team was better off running with Tony Parker offensively and adjusted accordingly; this year's NBA Finals team ran at the sixth-fastest pace in the league. By speeding up an elite half-court team, Pop has kept San Antonio in title contention far longer than anyone thought he could. That is only possible if your philosophy is doing whatever it takes to win."


    Team First Culture:
    “When I did get an opportunity to play, I missed a defensive assignment,” remembers Pops Mensah-Bonsu, who played a handful of games for the Spurs in the 2008-09 season and now serves as a scout for the organization. “Popovich took me out and, rightfully so, he tore me a new one. When I sit down at the end of the bench, I’m thinking that I’m never going to play again. A few seconds later, maybe the next quarter, Tim Duncan makes the same defensive mistake. Popovich takes him out and tears him a new one and basically does the same thing he did to me, to him. It proved to me and showed me why the Spurs have been so successful. Tim Duncan looked at him and said, ‘You know what, Coach? You’re right.’ And goes and sits down at the end of the bench. If the greatest power forward who ever lived does that, what does somebody like myself do?”
    https://www.slamonline.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs-culture/
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  18. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,960
    7,933
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    They have a lot of good players. It's just that none of them are as irreplaceable as Brady (QB is its own "unit" and much harder to replace if you got an elite talent). So part of Belichick's system is when and how to replace good players at other positions.

    Still.. it's worth noting Belichick won't get rid of Brady. Just goes to show you how much he values Brady.
     
    Surfs Up 99 likes this.
  19. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

    11,678
    7,190
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    One other factor that shows up for the two also, is luck, and finding the right star, as well as good leadership relationships. A Bloomberg article broke down Pop's success into 'five pillars':

    Pillar 1: Own Your Luck
    Pillar 2: Do Your Work
    Pillar 3: Unleash Your Anger (Strategically)
    Pillar 4: Widen Your World
    Pillar 5: Know Your People

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-01-10/the-five-pillars-of-gregg-popovich

    Of those five, 1 and 5 are particularly interesting:

    1 - "Late in December 1996, just after Popovich took over, David Robinson broke his left foot. The future Hall of Fame center was done for the season. The Spurs finished 20-62, out of the playoffs and in the draft lottery—a pingpong-ball draw among the NBA’s worst teams. They won the first pick and took Tim Duncan, a forward from the U.S. Virgin Islands. For the next 19 years, Duncan dominated games with sublime efficiency. “When you are coming from a star like David Robinson, and he gets hurt, and the next year you get Tim Duncan, you got lucky,” Ginobili says. “You’ve just got to admit it.”

    [​IMG]

    Popovich does. “I would not be standing here if it was not for Tim Duncan,” he told reporters after Duncan retired in 2016. “I’d be in the Bud league, the Budweiser league, someplace in America, fat and still trying to play basketball or coach basketball.” He was exaggerating, but perhaps not by much. Popovich was the Spurs’ general manager at the outset of the 1996-97 campaign—he still oversees basketball operations—and had installed himself as coach after the team won only 3 of its first 18 contests. At his first home game, the fans booed him. Will Perdue, then a center on the team, says he had no inkling of what Popovich would become. “He would always say, ‘Listen, man, I’m not a genius. I don’t really know that much about basketball, but I am going to learn like you.’ ” Duncan’s arrival gave Popovich a chance to establish himself, a luxury not every coach gets."

    5 - "
    Kerr, the Warriors’ coach, played under Popovich for four seasons. Before the game between the two teams in November, he spent a few minutes talking about his old boss. Popovich, he said, had a policy of allowing families on the team plane. For Kerr, who had young kids, it was “the coolest thing ever. Nobody had ever done that before in the NBA, at least on any of the teams I played for.”

    These extra efforts don’t just warm players’ hearts; they help solve the essential problem of any collective endeavor: getting people to subordinate self-interest to a common goal. The issue is especially acute in an NBA locker room, where most everyone has been the best player on every team he’s ever played for and is under pressure to make as much money as possible in a short time. With the Spurs, Robinson says, selfishness is acknowledged and incorporated in the collective. “You feel like all these guys want you to make as much money as you can.”"


    And then there's the leadership/front office:
    "He begins to list others who played a part, from Duncan to current Spurs General Manager R.C. Buford. “Everybody has had such a huge role in this team turning around. And Pop understands that.”

    "In 2002, RC Buford, who was an assistant coach for the Spurs under Larry Brown in 1988 and remained in the organization from 1994 on, was hired as GM of the team. Working with Pop, the two were tasked with placing the right players around Duncan to win championships and have developed a working relationship that is unlike most in the League.

    “RC and I have done everything together,” says Popovich. “From day one, we’ve done everything together and our groups have done everything together. Managers are in coaches meetings, we’re in the managers meetings and walk in as we please. We talk about it, argue about it, have a beer or wine and move on. We’ve done it all together.”"

    "There is no doubt that a large part of the Spurs’ ongoing success is down to drafting Tim Duncan. However, as true as that is, it would be foolish to put it all down to this.

    Yes, Duncan was a huge talent, but what really made him thrive was the system and atmosphere in San Antonio.

    Timmy was always going to be a success under Pop. A humble professional who knows his role on the court and is a natural leader is a dream player to have. And sure enough, Popovich was able to mould him into the greatest Spur ever to play for the organization.

    However, you can’t make a successful team with one player, and here is where the tandem of Buford and Popovich amazed us all.
    In 1999, with the 57th pick, the Spurs drafted a virtual unknown from Argentina. That player was Manu Ginobili. In 2001, they used the 28th pick to draft Tony Parker from France.

    It was seen as shocking back then. No other franchise would so freely squander their draft picks on players who haven’t even been in the USA, let alone have any college education there.

    But the rest, as they say, is history. These players won four championships with the Spurs and alongside Duncan are now remembered as the “Big Three.”

    And this is by no means a fluke. In 2011, the Spurs traded point guard George Hill to the Indiana Pacers and got Kawhi Leonard and Davis Bertans. Although Hill’s athleticism and tenaciousness were hailed back then, he did not come close to replicating what Kawhi has been doing in the league...

    Popovich is well aware of the European basketball culture and the fact that successful teams there rely more on collective effort than superstardom.

    This has been key in the success of the organization. Not only does the management have a keen eye for talent, but they spot players who are professional, will know their role on the court, and will stick to it. I think this is what helps the Spurs off the court as well.

    R.C. Buford and Popovich know their roles. Buford is the one looking after the scouting network and the staff appointments being made in that department. The coach is responsible for developing a playing system in which he can get the best out of his players."

    https://www.gamblingsites.com/blog/...egg-popovich-and-the-san-antonio-spurs-89809/

    "SAN ANTONIO – Spurs coach Gregg Popovich replied quickly Monday when he was asked about the role general manager R.C. Buford has played in the franchise’s success since he was promoted to his current position in 2002.

    “The best way to put it would be to say we’d be lost without him,” Popovich said. “Those few words say it all. His organizational abilities, his foresight, his ability to plan ahead and make judicious and wise decisions are off the charts. We would have had a hard time keeping this together for this long if he wasn’t here.”

    Buford and Popovich both talked about their mutual trust and the synergy between them. “We are always on the same page,” Popovich said. “We don’t have to agree on everything, but we’re both participatory and we involve other opinions that often sway our own opinions. It’s not always our ideas. It’s not R.C.’s or mine. It’s all of us, but R.C. is the guy that implements everything and gets it all done. It’s deserved and really gratifying to see him get this award.”

    Popovich said Buford’s award is a reflection of the franchise’s culture in the front office. “That’s what I mean by participatory,” Popovich said. “Everybody does their part and everybody feels like part of the program because opinions are valued. There are no bad opinions. There are no bad decisions. They’re just decisions and you do your best to make them good ones. Everybody’s been important.”"


    https://www.kens5.com/article/opini...-rc-has-fueled-spurs-run-of-success/183588523
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
    Surfs Up 99 likes this.
  20. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

    11,678
    7,190
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    So perhaps it's not so much the Patriot's way, as just a way that brings together talented players, talented coaches, in a detail-focused, work-hard, be smart and do everything with excellence approach.
    Player development is crucial, but perhaps it's drafting for character and attitude that brings in players who can be developed, and who can fill the role their draft into - rather the finding magical talent?
     
    Surfs Up 99 likes this.
  21. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    6,007
    7,748
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    My point is, they continually invest in their line year after year and Brady has had excellent protection. You don't see them signing aging vets with zero experience rookies backing them up- it's a full unit. You see the same trends in Dallas, Pitt, etc. and these are teams in the playoffs more often than not. And their formula was all essentially the same- find a qb, build a line around him and then focus on defense.

    We've disagreed on Tannehill back and forth over the years- sometimes with me for the guy and sometimes against him. I still don't love RT since he can't navigate a crowded pocket, but to me it's like swapping out an engine of a racecar because a few spark plugs are bad....and then putting the same bad spark plugs back in the new engine. That offensive line has been our main issue for a very long time now and the problem is (1) identifying talent and (2) investing in the right kind of linemen. Changing coaches and quarterbacks does not fix either of those issues (unless you bring in a scout that knows linemen, of course, and a coach/GM that's willing to invest the correct way).

    I'll be honest here- I might not be a Dolphins fan this coming season. You guys know I love the team more than just about anything in life, but I'm so frustrated with the stupidity that I don't know if I can handle another season under Ross. I mean, we let Gase walk to our division rivals because "He wants to win now." What exactly is that saying to our fan base? To me, it's definitely not "Invest another $300 in the Sunday Ticket because you'll see some great football next year."

    Plain and simple, the offensive line is the core of any football team. You can't win consistently without it, and you cant build a great line until the front office makes it their #1 priority. In the past two years, we've drafted exactly one offensive lineman (Aisata) and he came in the later rounds....we drafted him more on size than ability. And maybe he does develop, but one lineman every two years is not going to cut it in the NFL...especially since we let once Pro Bowl caliber Pouncey walk. New England knows that, as does almost every playoff team past the wildcard round in the past five decades.

    Why'd Gase bring in Cutler and Osweiler? They're both fairly good playing behind bad lines. It's that simple. And we can't keep that criteria for who we start under center...it's a ridiculous approach.
     
    resnor likes this.
  22. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,960
    7,933
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    NE doesn't prioritize OL. Just look at their starters on OL this year:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2018_roster.htm

    Trent Brown: drafted in 7th round by 49ers
    Marcus Cannon: drafted in 5th round by NE
    Joe Thuney: drafted in 3rd round by NE
    David Andrews: undrafted
    Shaq Mason: drafted in 4th round by NE

    There is NO way you can look at that and argue NE somehow invests in their OL. No it's actually the opposite: they try to invest elsewhere, looking to give Brady good protection through good coaching on the OL and through Brady himself (guy is a damn intelligent QB).

    Ever heard of Scarnecchia? You want to know why NE has a good OL look there. No they don't "invest in their line year after year".
     
  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    6,007
    7,748
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    In 2018, they took a tackle 1st round.
    In 2017, they took tackles in the 3rd and 6th.
    In 2016, they took a guard in the 3rd and 6th.
    In 2015, they took a guard and a center in the 4th
    In 2014, they took a center in the 4th, a tackle in the 4th and a guard in the 6th.


    That's 10 linemen in the past 5 years....we've drafted 5 in that same span (all 3 outside the 1st round were busts). While I agree with you that coaching is a major part of development, so is scouting and actually picking the right types of players. As you showed, the Pats highest drafted starter is a 3rd rounder....you have to go all the way back to the 2010 draft for us to have a 3rd round talent on the field (John Jerry). And that's the only name we had consistently on the field in two decades outside the 1st round.

    I mean, I guess we could count Billy Turner as "a mid-round success" as well if we've being cynical....it all comes back to identifying talent in the later rounds though. That's the main thing that makes the Pats the Pats.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
    resnor and Unlucky 13 like this.
  24. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    27,098
    37,025
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I mean, they just drafted Isiah Wynn in the first round.

    Just in general I don't think it's a really fruitful exercise to try and say the Patriots will resources on "X" but not on "Y" because so much of what they do is based on their circumstances. If they didn't have Dante Scarnecchia, I'm sure they'd be more willing to spend to get talent, or maybe change the profile of what they look for so it wouldn't be so expensive.

    Like, what would we make of defensive end? The Patriots stopped paying for the big 2-gap defensive ends, went in a different direction, and at this point go after cheap guys like Trey Flowers and Deatrich Wise in the 4th+ rounds. But what happens now with the Patriots having to replace Wise, and the Dolphins and Lions both maybe having the same idea about finding those kind of guys at a discount? Where do you go from there?
     
    resnor likes this.
  25. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,960
    7,933
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Several things:

    1) Not prioritizing something doesn't mean you spend NO resources on it.
    2) Since just under 1/4 of all starters are OL you'd expect just under 1/4 of all draft picks to be OL if the team didn't prioritize it. And that's what you see with NE in the time span KeyFin looked at: 10 out of 42 draft picks on OL.
    3) You can't ignore draft position. As you guys pointed out they picked Wynn at #23. But he's the only 1st rounder out of 10 draft picks. We had two 1st round picks, at #13 and #19, in that time span. Look at any draft value chart and that #13 alone is worth more than all of NE's draft picks on OL combined outside of Wynn.
    4) IF you're going to argue spending even a single 1st rounder on OL in 5 years implies the team is prioritizing OL then we're prioritizing it more than they are.

    No NE doesn't "prioritize" OL. In fact, not many teams get away with such little investment in the OL in terms of draft value. And I think what Belichick is doing is smart. I've said this before but we should fix our OL through better coaching and more mid/low round picks, not a bunch of high rounders crowding out drafting skill positions (with LT a possible exception).
     
    Pauly likes this.
  26. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    27,098
    37,025
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Yes, but there's still the matter of drawing some sort of conclusion from this. The Patriots have a luxury to get good play without spending resources. However, what happens when they don't have good play? Do they just deal with it, or do they spend resources? That is more pertinent to the Dolphins right now, I think.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  27. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,960
    7,933
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Not sure they've ever had anywhere near the problems we've had with our OL, at least in the Belichick/Brady/Scarnecchia era. Their coach(es) and QB really help mitigate the fewer resources they've spent on individual OL talent.

    We're in rebuilding mode anyway so our problems are deeper than just a bad OL. The most important pieces are HC and QB. HC we've decided on.. now it's QB. If we don't get one this year then next year is a must. So what would you prioritize this year if we don't pick a QB high? OL? Nah.. I'd go for defense. In fact, I'd prefer we plan on getting a mobile QB in the future or one with good pocket awareness to help make the OL "better" than it otherwise would be with someone like Tannehill as QB.
     
  28. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

    1,595
    1,495
    113
    May 5, 2016
    Would it be fair to suggest that Brady has a lot to do with the success of their OL? Why? He is excellent at reading defenses and has the ability to change up the play to one more favorable. This helps the OL because most if not all of the rushers are accounted for. On plays where the defense has an extra guy, Brady has dialed up a nice little screen or short pass to Edleman or someone else to alleviate the pressure. Brady also is very good with the short drop backs. The ball is gone before anyone can get to him.

    I also give credit to Gronk. His blocking has got to help out a ton.
     
  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    6,007
    7,748
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    You're missing the point here entirely. NE has a solid line with 3rd, 4th and 7th round picks. Four of the five were developed in-house. That's the investment that I'm talking about....they didn't just get lucky in the later rounds. They did their homework, found the right fit for their team and kept bringing in new talent each year to nurture before they had to take the field.

    When you look at Miami, we've done the exact opposite. We bring in veteran free agents at a premium while shipping off our younger guys that show potential. There's talk of moving James since he's finishing out his rookie contract....HUGE mistake. Yet we did it with Long, Pouncey, etc. These are 1st round picks that we clearly didn't get first round value for.

    Take Pouncey, for example. The first mistake was trading him for a lesser perceived value. The 2nd mistake was "dumping him" before we had a suitable replacement out of the draft. The 3rd mistake was signing a veteran free agent. We just keep having net loss after net loss because we don't prioritize line, we stink at developing it, and then we trade our few decent pieces away for minimal value.

    To clarify, burning first round picks on absolute lock linemen is fine- if they're the best available at that point. That approach is a luxury though that most teams cannot afford. That's why NE has taken 9 linemen outside the first two rounds in the same span we've taken just 3.
     
    resnor likes this.
  30. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    24,807
    25,217
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    The Fins have tried everything under the sun on the OL going back a decade, and almost all of it has blown up in their faces. Big picture, looking at that whole time frame, they are on the very, very bottom of the league at the area of the team. I have no idea why, but its absolutely true.

    Maybe a new coaching staff will set things in the right direction, but we have a lot of the same people still doing the scouting and player evals.
     
    resnor likes this.
  31. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,960
    7,933
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Sure but how does any of this support your claim that somehow NE keeps the QB and the 5 linesmen "the same" (or whatever you want to change that to) and that everything else on offense is expendable?

    That's simply not true dude. It's ONLY Brady that isn't expendable. The individual linesmen are expendable (just look at the turnover in the rosters), and this idea of NE developing things in house is true for all units except Brady. There's nothing special about OL there.

    Brady is special (to Belichick), no other player is on any unit.
     
    Pauly likes this.
  32. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    6,007
    7,748
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    The point I was making is that NE continually invests in (and improves) their line, as does other perceived "elite" teams around the league. The fact that they're finding starters in the late rounds is impressive and it speaks to the entire organization (coaches, scouts and OL players).

    Here's where I think we may have a disconnect- do you think Brady would put up similar numbers in Miami behind our line? Think of how many times RT was hit just this final stretch alone by an unblocked defender....you rarely see that in NE. I'm not trying to take anything away from Brady but if we traded QB's, I'm fairly confident that the two team's records wouldn't change by more than a game or two either way.

    And as you alluded to, NE has starting receivers that wouldn't make rosters in other cities. Heck, we dumped Hogan straight up....he's a situational starter in NE. Their talent outside Brady on offense is marginal at best....yet their RB's have always looked great and they haven't fumbled the ball. Again, that points to a solid line.
     
    Pauly likes this.
  33. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,960
    7,933
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Of course Brady would do worse behind our line. But none of that was part of the discussion.

    The only issue I have with your stance (at least what you wrote) is that somehow NE is treating the OL differently than they treat other units. The evidence suggests there's nothing special about the OL in Belichick's mind relative to other units (except Brady). He's just a great coach and GM and is capable of getting more with less. So sure their OL is better than ours. Doesn't mean they're prioritizing OL.
     
    Pauly likes this.
  34. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    6,007
    7,748
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I didn't say they're polarizing either- they're simply dependable year after year. For instance, Brady has zero sacks in the playoffs this season. That''s definitely due to a quick release, but the line plays a big part in that as well.
     
    Pauly likes this.
  35. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    1,174
    995
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    I can boil it down farther.

    The Patriots have Brady and the Spurs had Duncan/Robinson and then Leonard in a star driven league.

    The Spurs consistently lost to more talented teams to where it was almost a funny. Now we can see them try and rebuild with their approach to see if it actually works.

    Patriots on the other hand have an elite QB and a pushover division every season.

    I really dont buy this at all. Most players want to win pretty badly. I'm supposed to believe these teams just have players who "want it more" up and down the roster....what idiocy.
     
  36. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    8,311
    6,422
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Melbourne, FL
    I wouldn't say that Unlucky. In fact, I would make the argument that New England copied Miami's success.

    Robert Kraft purchased the Patriots, to have a determined successful owner...just as the Dolphins had in Joe Robbie.
    Kraft brought in an established successful coach in Parcells...as Robbie did in bringing in Shula.
    The Patriots had success under Bledsoe...as Miami did with Griese.
    The Patriots turned the reins over to Brady...as Miami did with Marino.

    Yes, I would say there are more similarities that New England copied us for their success. We simply lost great FOOTBALL ownership. The Patriots at least listened to Parcells when he left and hired his selection to succeed him with Belichick where as Miami didn't listen to Shula when he insisted we hire Schottenheimer.
     
  37. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

    10,316
    3,434
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    The only way to get the Patriot way is to have Belichick step down and sign with us. So many have tried to copy the Niner way with Walsh’s west coast offense, you cant copy greatness. We have to create our image.
     
  38. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

    11,678
    7,190
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    I didn't say anyone suggest that either team has players who want it more. I could have missed someone else saying though, but I certainly didn't.

    Although I posted a lot of quotes they were broken down into a few categories that seemed to overlap between commonly beyond hallmarks for both franchises.

    A strong coach
    Generally drafting high character/intelligent players over less intelligent talented players when both traits weren't present.
    A strong emphasis on individual accountability and excellence/mastery in the details.
    A team first culture where players have to have gotten over themselves.

    On top of those people point to talent/ personnel development, great FO synergy, and the luck to draft a key high character talent who leads.
     
  39. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

    2,435
    1,672
    113
    Apr 27, 2013
    Brazil
    Idiocy is if you believe a Devante Parker has the same level of commitment as a Cameron Wake.

    I absolutely think some players want it more than others and that some value team success over individual success... whereas some others are the opposite, which in turn negatively impacts the team.

    I don’t believe the Patriots’ success is tied to just Tom Brady and a weak division.
     
    Pauly likes this.
  40. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    1,174
    995
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    You're talking about extremes though which are easily avoided.
     

Share This Page