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Owners created their own monster here.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by mommabilly, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Good for the owners if this is true. Year in and year out we see the owners get screwed by not having a rookie salary cap that prevents first year players from getting a gauranteed 50 million dollar contract. Only to see a small percentage of them worth the money.


    Signed:

    Jamarcus Russell

    New President of the Ryan Leaf Foundation to Screw the NFL Owners
     
  2. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    As do the players, and their agents.
     
  3. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Most owners do not buy a franchise just to sell it. They help build it but for the most part we see owners keep teams as long as they can...
     
  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    But that is because of the owners
     
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  5. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    One of the main reasons the owners are willing lock the players out is because of it. The players union is doing the right thing to fight it but they know this will have to end in order to get a new agreement in place.

    So that's not on the owners really.
     
  6. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Owners are the ones that created the problem by paying the first pick so much money.
     
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  7. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Not quite that easy. They were also handcuffed by the prospects of getting a franchise player, and as it goes, there is always a 10-15 percent raise for the same slotted pick the following season.

    It's way out of hand but it is going to stop or so the owners say.

    I'm all for a player making money. Good money even. But I'm totally with the owners on this point. Let the players earn a big payday...
     
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'm working for peanuts

    signed

    Cameron Wake

    See, you would have a point if a rookie salary cap was all they were after, however it is not, they want to double the amount of money they take off of the table from 1 billion to 2 billion AND add a Rookie Cap AND further restrict Free Agency AND change the slotting system for using the Franchise Tag.

    And keep in mind, NFL contracts are not guaranteed, blow out a knee, elbow, neck, to bad we can no longer use you.

    A 1 billion dollar bonus ontop of public funding for stadiums and I have very little sympathy for Ownerships argument.
     
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  9. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Seriously.

    I have little sympathy for both sides that want to kill the golden goose.

    Screw it. I don't care. If the NFL goes away, there will still be football.
     
  10. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    do you really think ross is going to be able to sell the Dolphins for 7 billion dollars in 16 years because thats what it would take to get a similar return? at some point you simply cant grow the revenue stream anymore. are fans going to spend 10,000 for season tickets per seat twenty years from now? ross got 95% of the team and 50% of the surrounding land for approxiamtely 1 billion total. forbes said values of teams fell 2% in 2010 for the first time in forever. the dolphins in 2009 made around 25 million before taxes, amortization, etc...Thats a horrible return. 2.5% is ridiculous. The owners should be making four times that amount to justify the expenditure
     
  11. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    You own an NFL team because you WANT to...Not as an investment....But you still have to make money.

    To guys like Ross, ego is a pretty huge thing...You own this? Well, F you bud. I own an NFL franchise.

    2% or so is the same as a safe investment, and, an NFL franchise is next to bonds in terms of reliability.
     
  12. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    that may have been the case in the past but its clear owners are saying we aren't playing that game anymore and you cant blame them. from a financial point of view they have to make this move especially if the value of teams is declining. I mean from a business point of view when you as an owner might make 25 million and one of your employees makes more than half that (peyton manning avg 14 million per yr on his 7 yr deal) thats the height of absurdity to continue doing business this way
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2011
  13. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    What's clear is the owners aren't satisfied with their piece of the pie, nor are the players.

    If the owners make 2% profit it's still net profit. Sure, rich guys like to make, rather than spend. That's
    how they got rich. You can't tell me the team value is declining. I don't care what Forbes says. They don't
    own the books.
     
  14. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    well the last huge spike in valuation was probably due to the potential of stadium revenue since most stadiums 20 years ago didnt have all the luxury boxes and restaurants you see today. the next leap in valuations is only going to be possible if either the tv deals keep getting bigger or they can expand into european and south american markets. the players make 2/3 of revenue which is insane. how many businesses pay their workers 66% of the revenue (and that doesnt include the salaries of non players)? 30 - 40% is the norm. any business over 50% is shaky. i dont know but any business that you cant at the bare minimum break even on your investment after ten years isnt worth the time or the effort
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2011
  15. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    I don't go to a game to see Ross "Own his *** off"

    Why shouldn't the labor make 2/3rds with owners still turning profit?

    Considering players could lose their lives or be forever injured in the routine course of events.
     
  16. daphins

    daphins A-Style

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    I can't pretend to know how much owners make, but I about fell over when I found out that GB netted 20 million (I believe that was the number)

    Like it or not a billion dollar team is a TON of money. For an owner to invest a billion dollars in a team and come out with 20 million (if the sum is accurate across all teams) is a losing proposition for ANYBODY. No businessman would enter into that deal and call it a good deal. He'll, we wouldn't INVEST in a company with those kinds of numbers.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  17. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Hold on. Where do the numbers you talk about come from? If owners were taking a net loss they wouldn't own. Nobody would.+
     
  18. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Also...You DO understand the frainchise holds value. The revenue stream is different. If X holds Y value, and, Y value holds at Z % growth while returning any sort of profit is net gain....Not net loss. If an owner is losing 3/4 of a bill a year, how long you reckon the owner holds that item?

    I wouldn't hold it for long...But that's just me.
     
  19. daphins

    daphins A-Style

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    Green Bays profit was 9.8 million this year, down from 20 million a year ago. They're the only franchise which we KNOW how much they make as they're publicly owned. That's money in after paying bills.

    Operating costs for a team are HUGE. Owners eat coaches and players contracts, fly them all over, put in a ton of time and money. I get that the franchise is worth money when they sell it, but NO company would operate with such low earnings compared to the value of the company. It would just never happen. Our company is valued at 7 years profit....it's worth about 1 million dollars. At that rate a professional team would be worth under 200 million. These teams have to make money to pay the bills, and put a few hundred mil in when they want a new stadium.

    If those numbers are accurate for even half of the teams, that's an insanely small amount of money for a team to make. Keep in mind these owners are wrapping up hundreds of millions of dollars of personal wealth into something that essentially kicks out gumballs. Yeah, it may go up when they sell it later, but the costs of running a team are incredible and that money is tied up for years. None of us would be willing to out that much of our money into something with that much of a return.


    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5379673

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    for anyone that thinks the owners are making enough on 2% ask yourself if you would lend someone $1000 if they promised to pay you back $20 per year for the rest of your life
     
  21. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    So GB returned a profit.

    No owner in the NFL is counting on a team to be his sole revenure source.

    Make no mistake..All this BS is about is who the fat of the calf goes to.
    Everyone is making money...EVERYONE.

    It's just who pulls more dollars away from the carcass. Keep that in mind.

    If the owners don't like it, they wouldn't hold stake in the NFL, and folks wouldn't buy in...
    Be desperate to buy in...To the biggest cash maker in the USA.

    You give me a company that turns 9 mil a year, I'm fine.
     
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  22. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Sure. As long as they did it year, after year, after year, after year. And I could eventually sell the loan for three or four times it's face to someone else.

    I don't think you understand the value of a thing inherantly and return on an investment.
     
  23. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box


    This has been the owners plan since the last agreement was signed. The one where the owners basically caved in to the players.

    I could care less if the owners have 50 billion to split 32 ways though. Because they own the NFL and should get the majority of the profits. They have to get the stadiums for the players to play in and the player to earn their high salaries in right? They also have to get the renovations done to them as well. Wether it is thru public funding or other means, the players just sit back and stay quiet while the owners negotiate things. The owners also have to have team facilities with practice fields and workout facilities right?

    The TV contracts are for a game played in the stadiums they had to get funded or paid for. Yet the players still get a very large percentage of the contracts.

    Don't the owners also fund the health care of current players, and retired players for up to 5 years after? I'm not 100 percent sure on this part but I know it's something like this.

    We also have to keep in mind that only a percentage of NFL Players, play without some form of a guarantee. Most players get a bonus to sign and more have a guaranteed amount they will make no matter what.


    The Players union is not without fault here. They neglected their own retired players for years and years, and they have had a damn sweet CBA in place for quite some time now. All they want to do is play. Or so they say, but that's because they know they got a good chunk of the money coming to them. In reality they not only want to play, they pray the owners give in...

    With that said, I'm not all on the owners side. I believe that the current rookie wage scale they want to install is way too much in their favor. I also believe that if they end up getting there way with it, it will open up a huge can of worms that could bite them in the rear. It could also open up a door for a new league to form. One that could take some of the big named future stars right out of college. If there is a locked ceiling as to what teams can pay, and if it's considered peanuts by many agents of draft eligible players then all a new league would have to do is offer more to the superstars coming out of college.

    I'm all for players making good money. Even the bottom of the roster players. Even the practice squad players. But to me there should be a limit on what players make when they come into the NFL. The owners are looking to scale it back 80 percent and to me that will spell a disaster for them over time. I'm more on the side of bringing it back closer to 50 percent. That way the top pick can make a total of about 22 million over 5 years with about 8 million guaranteed. PLUS incentives.

    I'm all for a wage scale on rooks but I think they should also be able to install some incentives in them for the players that turn out to be worth it.
     
  24. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Just keep in mind....Everyone agrees rookies should get **** on. Well yes..That makes sense. Lets limit rookies. They shouldn't make as much as,
    say, 11 year worker on #5 press at collective factory #452 (Tractor Works)

    Why do things need to change to reduce slaries because you "Can".

    Would you think it's right if it were YOU getting denied money, regardless of what the **** some
    D bags did at some point? I know I wouldn't like it.
     
  25. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Would you think it's right when you signed a 60 million dollar contract and you sucked? Of course you would but forget that there is someone who actually had to give all them dollars for absolutely free!!! lol
     
  26. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Sure I would.

    Damn right.

    Everyone else has gotten this before me, why not me? Why stop with me? Why
    start "Social justice" (Amongst millionares) with ME?!

    I think ****ing NOT and I'd bet you'd say so too if it was you that stood to lose
    7 million or so.

    If a team signs me to perform X service...X being doing my job...And they agree to pay me Y...That's on them. It's not
    on me. THEY and ME signed the contract. That's why they call it a "Contract". If I agree to terms, and they do too..Well
    That's it, right?

    Or do you not get the whole concept of a contract?
     
  27. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Lets go further Ozy...What's "Fair" to you. Please tell me what's
    "fair" as you decide other people's lives and incomes.

    Now, as you do it, imagine someone not in your line of work
    figguring out how much you can make. Because it's "Right".
     
  28. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Umm why do we have to stoop to this level? I said absolutely nothing to incinuate you did not get things. I think we're all pretty grown around here and for the most part, I think most everyone who posts here has at least a decent IQ!

    All I said was do you feel right about sucking. Not just under performing (ie Ronnie Brown) but totally not living up to the standards (Ryan Leaf) of that 60 million dollar contract?

    If you said yes, I think your not telling to entire truth here. I'll bet you Jamarcus Russell is having no problem spending his money but I also bet he feels pretty bad within himself that he totally sucked.

    And for those who think it's totally ok! Great! That's one of the reasons, but not THE reason, I want to see a rookie wage scale.
     
  29. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Here is a novel idea. How about we earn our keep. If it's two dollars, earn it. If it's 2 million earn it.

    I'm kind of on the owners side but not one bit opposed to the players making lots of money. The reason I would like to see a pay scale is so the TEAM can recoup it's losses faster. So if a rookie sucks, the team can cut him and replace him with a quality, or possible quality player just as fast as they cut the other. A 5 to 8 million dollar gaurantee is a lot easier to absorb so the TEAM and the player that sucked still win so to speak. That way my team can still compete
     
  30. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i dont think you do if you think these guys are going to be selling these teams in ten years for 4 billion. just because those types of returns were made in the past doesnt mean they will be made in the future. Just look at what happened in real estate in the past four years as an example. The last round of valuation growth was due to stadium reconstructions into the cash cows they are today. There is no more blood to squeeze from that stone so the only way they bump the value in the future is europe and south america or gouging the networks for more and there is already resistence being indicated by the networks that they may be near their limits. buying a team today is more like going to a bank and buying a CD
     
  31. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    First off, the majority of NFL owners do not own the stadium the team plays in BUT when a value is put on a team, the such as lets say, 1 billion dollars, that includes the stadium in that estimate even though most times its owned by the city that the team plays in.

    Average NFL owner NETS 23 million in profits for himself when all the bills are paid. Or this is what they claim anyway. No one actually knows because the owners have never opened their books up to the NFLPA. Sure, they give a lfowing report but no one, not one single person, ever, can absolutely verify the report is for real and the owners want it that way.

    Its not only the revenue sharing with the players thats in dispute. The real thorn in the side is revenue sharing AMONGST THE OWNERS. Its been x amount of money is made thru selling all the NFL products and said money was split up evenly with the teams. Some small market teams NEED that money. Now, the larger market teams owners. NY, Giants, Jets, Dallas NE so forth, are the ones that bring in the large majority of money in clothing sales and NFL products and no longer want to share their piece of the pie with the small market owners. 2010 was the first year since revenue sharing that the teams kept the revenue that was made from their OWN team and did not share it.

    St. Louis for example, a small market team, lost out on an additional 19 million dolllars in revenue sharing that usually went on amongst owners. This is NOT small peanuts. You see you now have owners that do not agree with owners. I know If I was a small market team I would still want the revenue sharing and if I was a big market team I would want to keep the whole pie of $$$$$ gained from my own teams apparel sales and such. That part is a mess and you are hearing nothing about that end of things at all.

    Rookie salary cap has been agreed on by both parties already and there will be performance clauses in there. Contrary to one post I read here, most NFL players salaries are NOT guaranteed. The super stars , yeah, there is some sort of total amount guaranteed but for the regular players. Which is the majority of the league. The only thing guaranteed is whatever bonus is paid up front or maybe that and first years salary for the better of the average players. Only baseball guarantees the entire salary of a player, not the NFL.

    Yeah the owners created this problem and it all goes there because as another said, they are the ones that pay the stupid silly money out in the draft, They are the ones that allowed the agents to garner a % increase in top pick salaries,year after year. They are also the ones that paid idiots like Haynesworth 100 million dollars. Albert Haynesworth did not put a gun to Danny boys head and say pay me or I will kill you. That there sets a precedent or pay scale expected by other players.

    People also forget that twice in 2010, Oct. and Nov. the NFLPA threw a blank piece of paper across the table and told the owners write down what you want. In both instances the owners wrote nothing on the paper, have made no offer to the NFLPA such as, this is what we want, this is what we want , nothing. Just simply sat there, the owners, and all agreed to just not agree on anything. This is not instituted by the players folks, this was instituted by the owners. For the most part every single owner was a Billionaire PRIOR to buying his team. Sure losing 23 million profit will hurt. About as much as us, the regular Joe, losing 200 on football bets. The NFL owners all have other sources of income, all of them.

    People also forget the OWNERS, not the players, made the Networks GUARANTEE money be paid in advance to them of the 2011 season. Thats the owners. Now, why would they do that ? C'mon man, its as plain as the nose on your face. Yes, if games are not played the money for each missed game has to be paid back to the networks BUT, not in onelump sum, but instead over time. Hurt the owners a little there ? Yes, but akin to having a small splinter in your finger, thats about it. Do not fool yourself, the owners will dictate how and when that money will be paid back to the networks.

    At first, owners wanted 18% of the revenue back that players were getting ( currently 40%) NFLPA said fine, then the owners said no, we want more. Its been crazy and a lot of shiiiiiit has been going down.

    The only way to make these parties agree on anything is if you do like I am going to do. No CBA, no season ticket money sent in, period.

    Fans need to start sites from each team and send the owners emails with about 20 to 30 thousand names from each teams season ticket holders saying, " Hey Mr. so and so, we love our team but no CBA agreement, no check in the mail for our season tickets " You watch and I mean it, watch how fast an agreement would be hammered out and all parties would be happy. Like I said, I am only one but no CBA, no check for season tickets and not even buying a Dolpins papercup until there is one.
     
  32. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    The two sides have agreed that a rookie wage scale is needed but they're far apart on what the details need to be. So they have not agreed on anything but both sides saying it's somehow needed.

    As for guaranteed salaries. Since I was the only one who came close to saying it. Here is what I said. The exact same thing you did....

    Nothing says all salaries are guaranteed and I'm pretty sure every diehard sports fan knows this.
     
  33. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    Understandable, and I agree that the owners should be able to make a profit as they operate it. However, it's not quite that simple to equate owning an NFL team to owning a regular business. In this instance you are buying a service from them, and a rather large one since the service they provide is the reason you can make your money to begin with. It's a business whose focal point of interest is human beings, not car parts, sandwich breads or pipe fixtures.
     
  34. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    Correct, and as I stated they should be able to see a profit as they operate it. But they do buy franchises as investments, in most cases long term ones, and as investments with great appreciation value. And there is a valid argument is out there that in the short term you take care of the individuals who are greatly responsible for the growth in appreciation your asset will realize. It's finding a happy medium that's the tricky part.
     
  35. daphins

    daphins A-Style

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    No one said they're counting on the team to be a sole revenue source. They DO however have other business interests to worry about, and having a huge chunk of your money tied up in a venture HAS to have some redeeming value to the owner.

    While the Dolphins themselves aren't his ONLY business, they should have to be able to survive as A business. And making 10-20 million a year, with their overhead is an absolute joke. It's not a viable business model. The team has to be able to pay for stadium upgrades/fixes, rising salaries for players, travel and lodging for the players, etc.

    10-20 million is a drop in the bucket for what these team spend in a year with travel, lodging, food, and salaries. As it stands the GB owner (if there really was one) would have to chip in to buy a 20 million dollar upgrade this off season because quite honestly the team doesn't have it. What if Miami was in the same boat, and the stadium got hit by a hurricane and Ross had to come up with 20 mil? That's 10 mil out of Ross's pocket at that point. White I know the guy is worth a couple billion I'm sure he'd notice that. The dolphins at that point would have tied up a quarter of his personal worth, a lot of his time, and 10's of millions of dollars here and there for contracts, lawsuits, repairs, etc.

    I'm not nearly as worried about the owners making 50+ mil a year on a billion dollar investment as I am on the investment itself being sound. As it stands GB doesn't sound like it's too self sufficient. You said "give me a business that makes 9 million and i'll be happy". If Greenbay was entrusted to your care tomorrow (while still owned by the city of Green Bay) and you were told "run this team, and you get to keep the excess profits next season...but you're also responsible for any debt we incur" I guarantee you'd be worried. There's no guarantee that GB will turn a profit next season, and if they don't you'd be on the hook for the difference. I'd put good money on you making cuts as far as the players are concerned.
     
  36. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Since when are employees supposed to pay for anything? Does your boss make you pay for pens and pencils? Are auto-workers supposed to pay for the plant they work at?

    Of course not. The players are employees, plain and simple.
     
  37. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Do employers HAVE to do anything for the employees? Like health care? No!

    It depends on the contracts~
     
  38. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    If I turn 9 million dollars a year profit out of any business, I'm good to go. "Profit" is money that's cleared
    after everything is figgured out. All the costs, etc. That includes upkeep, etc. There is no way
    that people that got rich by running profitable businesses would be desperate to buy an NFL
    franchise if they were a money loser. When, like in GB you have generational waits for tickets,
    your franchise is doing well.

    If course I'd be worried if I ran a business.....Of course...but if what had been done had been
    working, I'd have no reason to believe that it wouldn't continue to work at least as well as it
    had been before.
     
  39. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Oh absolutely. From the players I buy a service. However, they, nor anyone else has
    any right to tell me what's right and moral in terms of how much I can make from the
    investment I make in their service.

    That's why you'll also never hear me go; "NFL players make too much. We need to pay teachers
    police and firefighters more." Everyone knows the salary of a profession before they apply for it.
     

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