Aren't there questions about Montero's ability to catch at the ML level? If he has the ability to handle that position adequately (to the point that Seattle would pencil him into the catching slot for the next decade-plus), then this becomes an awful move for the Yankees. They're the prohibitive favorites, as presently constituted (i.e. without Lee) and everyone knows they're going to sign him this offseason, only he won't cost a 20-year-old Miguel Cabrera (that's the comparison I've read for Montero). Hell, even if he can't catch, with a bat like that you pencil him into the DH slot for his entire career. This is ill-advised overkill -- I hope Cashman pulls the trigger.
It will be interesting to see if Lee pitches if the deal isn't finalized by game time. You'd think if he does pitch it means a trade isn't close but if he's pulled from the start it means the trade will be going down very soon. I can understand Seattle not wanting Lee pitching against them this weekend. He'd probably just throw a sim game and then get the first start back from the AS break. I welcome anything that keeps the Lebron talk off WFAN so hopefully the 'rumor' stays strong all day.
I don't think there's a sane scout in the world that thinks Montero can catch at the MLB level. With that being said he's more valuble to Seattle than he is for the Yankees since he could possible play 1B, where in NY the only spot open to him for the next 8 years would be DH. The Yankees, I believe, had him playing a little OF in the minors with very mixed results. And I agree as a Red Sox fan I'm kind of hoping the Lee deal goes through since it means the Yankees will lose Montero and I'm convinced that Lee will be a Yankee next year anyway, they might as well give something good up for him in the mean time.
How?? You can never have enough starting pitching, this is perfect actually, cuz Lee would take Andy's place next year, when he retires...if they flip Javy for Werth or some other decent bat, that would be great as well, even if it is a half year rental, and he leaves at the end of the year to test FA......The truth is, I'd rather have Lee sign the extension, and go after Crawford this offseason... The book on Monterio is, defensively he isnt as good as Romine(the other catching prospect), can hit but swings at everything...They were actually saying that they wanted to transistion Monterio out of catching postion....
LOL....you can feel that way....but Cashman is smart enough to know defeating the opposition is as much about what you own vs. what you keep them from owning. Its not overkill...and prohibitive favorites are only just that....paper tigers. If you can make a move to improve that paper tiger and not let competitors improve equally you do it. Now as far as Montero? could be....its the Austin Jackson scenario....and if you get a piece you feel improves your position and you give up highly rated unknown, but have other moves you can make down the line you do it....it could be an Austin Jackson vs. Curtis Granderson comparison down the line, you accept that. Montero isnt the only savior for Catching options (Miguel Cabrera aside) Yanks have available. Thats all Cashman has to concern himself with. As I said, the luxury is often being able to Make the move on one hand, or not make the move on another, and be viewed by outsiders as still remaining prohibitive favorites. So, really in that case, nothing to look down our collective noses at Cashman or Yanks for. Its win/win if he feels this improves the team and provides even better short term CHIPS to move around going forward. I love that about Yanks approach.
It doesnt matter if the Yankees need a catcher, they will buy one... I think they should hold onto everybody and get Lee in the offseason.....however....as of 9AM Joel Sherman of the New York Post reports that if the Yankees were able to finalize a deal for Cliff Lee, they would not start him against the Mariners on Friday night. More broadly, they may have a "gentlemen's agreement" in place not to start Lee against the Mariners this weekend to avoid the potential embarrassment of the left-hander shutting down his former team in his old stadium. There's nothing final yet, but the fact that we are already addressing something like this is an indication that the two sides are pretty close to an agreement.
My point exactly -- thank you. I'd rather not see a 20-year old, with the bat of a Cabrera, penciled into the Yankees lineup for the next 15 years, especially when you consider the cost -- which is essentially 3 additional months of Lee in pinstripes. Sign me up.
I love this bravado....all that matters is winning WS.....prospects be damned...cause Yanks prove time and time again, acquiring what they lack (on paper or reality) is meaningless going into a given season. Giving up A. Jackson is meaningless; Getting Granderson is fine. Giving up Montero is meaningless; Getting Lee is fine. Giving up Vazquez is meaningless; Getting Werth is fine...(CC, Burnett, Tex, Swish and on, and on, and on).....thats the way it is under Cashman. He plays the Chess board better than most. You think they take steps backwards? All that matters is WS trophies and these are pieces to move around the chessboard.
But is a half a season of Cliff Lee worth giving up 6 years of Jesus Montero and other prospects? That's the main thing here as no team is going to out bid the Yankees for Lee if they want him. The Vazquez for Werth thing is just speculation. Montero has a career OBP in the minors of .368 from ages 17-20. That's pretty damn good and not 'he swings at everything terrority'. He can't catch at the MLB level according to most scouts. If the Yankees can find and 'buy' a good MLB catcher more power to them.
I think our point is that the Yankees have a good chance of winning a WS this year without Lee and have the best chance to sign Lee to a contract in the offseason. So if the Yankees give up a top top prospect (something Austin Jackson never was) it's nice to see as a non Yankee fan. I'd rather the Yankees have to give up a stud prospect for Lee than for them to just waiting 6 months and sign him in the off season anyway while keeping Montero. It's not about them taking a step backwards because obviously short term they get better and are in a better shot at a WS title. If they trade for Lee and win the WS then it doesn't matter they gave up Montero (much like the Red Sox getting Beckett/Lowell for Hanley). You always trade a stud for a WS title, always. But I'd rather the Yankees have to give up Montero and others than get Lee for free after the year.
Its not about bravado, its about maximizing the value of the assets you have within your organization. If the Yankees want to get value out of Montero by trading him -- then trade him for something you don't have, or won't have in the near future. You're already going to have Cliff Lee from 2011 onward. Why the hell are you trading Montero? To provide yourself with a marginally better chance at winning the WS in 2010? Even when you were already the favorite? Its short-sighted and ill-advised.
YES...time and time again this has been proven...YES! Fine, you can wish all you want about Yanks making a bad move and having it COST them...it doesnt matter. Yanks would rather get what they want now, prevent others from doing that equally, and still win WS. They wont take a short or long term step backward cause every piece they have can be flipped down the line as necessary to fill the next piece. Thats the cycle they concern themselves with. If Montero was their only propect that would help in a given position...fine....they play it differently perhaps; but he is dime-a-dozen for their Catcher needs....1B needs...or DH needs. Big deal...those great Dime-A-Dozen spots free him up to grab Lee for 6 months sooner. Its not a LOSS then. Its a WIN. Again, it may not happen...thus, everyone remains and you regroup and you get Lee (potentially if he doesnt sign long term deal with team he gets traded to) and you move Montero to someone else potentially...but if he isnt Catching for you...he is sitting in minors to be moved. Thats the bottomline. Its Win/Win for Yanks! There is no BAD MOVE in this scenario anyway Cashman plays it.
Ed Price of AOL Fanhouse reports that the Phillies had a scout present for Javier Vazquez's start against the Athletics on Monday. Food for thought. It might not mean anything at all, but ESPN's Buster Olney floated the Phillies and Padres as potential destinations for Vazquez should the Yankees complete a trade for Cliff Lee. Speculation I guess right?? They would have to trade Javy, or have a 6 man rotation, Hughes has earned his spot in the lineup?? But the Padres?? For who...
Where have I ever said if this deal goes through it's a bad move? I simply said that I'd rather have the Yankees give up something to get Cliff Lee than them getting him for nothing in 6 months. Wouldn't you rather have the Red Sox or Rays give up their top prospect for someone that there's a 95% chance they would lock them up long term at the end of the year?
You completely missed my point, which was there aren't a lot of good MLB catchers around and the ones that are (i.e. Mauer/McCann/Posey/Santana/Wieters) are locked up long term already.
If I told you I dont worry or concern myself with 2nd Tier Organizations and their decision you would know I say it just to give you what for, right?
I fundamentally disagree with this approach. Maybe it has something to do with the monetary resources available to the Yankees as opposed to the rest of baseball, but it reeks of short-sightedness. All I know, is that if the roles were reversed and Theo was on the verge of making this deal, I'd be down on Yawkey Way with a pitchfork in-hand. And I have a sneaking suspicion I'm not the only Sox fan who would feel this way.
No point missed......I can appreciate the mindset of giving something up (top prospect) for something you would expect to acquire anyway. The point from Yanks is simple.....who cares. Its no big deal anyway they handle it, and they dont concern themselves with how its viewed outside of their organization. That is the only point, Yanks fans look at it from. 6 months now of Lee and Winning a WS moving two ML prospects is the EXACT same as no-trade and still winning WS. Its the exact same as far as Yanks are concerned. Getting Lee in Pinstripes and keeping him from other teams that could even possibly decrease the Yanks chances of WS is the flip of the coin they only care about and if that takes a Montero in the mix, so be it. I love that mindset. Anyone concerning themselves with Getting Lee in 6mos and not having to move Montero is missing the point of what the Yanks do when they are in position to do it. Its a Win/Win, I keep saying it over and over but some fail to see it.
I get what your saying, but NY has 3 other catching prospects...including one kid right now Sanchez who is in Single A batting .380....Realistically to give up 1 prospect, and you will because all 4 arent making it to the bigs, is IMO a no brainer.... Prospects are just that until proven otherwise.....NY played the lets sit on prospects, because they are good in the farm system like the Sox do, with Ian Kennedy, Tyler Cilppard, and the other kid there in Pitt I forgot his name, and where did that get them?? To get a guy like Lee, who will arguably be NY's best pitcher if this deal happens for a prospect is just golden.....
If the roles/teams were reversed, I'd be excited I'm getting a top 5 pitcher in Lee but a little concerned I'm giving up at least 24 years of team control of 4 prospects for 3 months of Lee. Granted not all of the prospects going to Seattle will pan out but I'd honestly still be concerned if I were giving up a Casey Kelly or a pre surgery Ryan Westmoreland.
Please spare me this angle, as a Royals fan, whatever I get it, but dude as a Sox fan this angle is straight out weak.... You guys while, maybe not having the revenue stream NY does, have ALOT of money.....You all where a pube hair away from spending 170+ million dollars to Tex like it was nothing....for Sox fans to play little sisters of the poor is laughable....
With all due respect, you are a Sox fan, I am not shocked. As a Yanks fan, 27 Titles tells me I dont have to disagree...I see how its been and how Cashman plays his cards. He built this run "Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera" (with Stick Micheal's back in the day) and did what it took to keep his young prospects when that's all he had; and he hid them from Steinbrenner and his constant desire to trade for OLDER vets vs. need. Cashman built up the current Farm System to stockpile TRADE Chips as necessary, or move them from Minors to Majors (Cano, Hughes, Joba, etc) when that was the prudent. Cashman has let FA come to market vs trading for them early when that made sense (CC, Burnett, Tex); but he also knows when the time to move is now, he will go after the chip that gives Yanks the BETTER chances. And again, keeping those CHIPS out of the other teams hands. In those times, PROSPECTS (the word and excitement) means more to the other team than to the Yanks plan. Cashman gets it. Thats all that matters.
As of 10:37...... An executive involved in trade talks for Cliff Lee tells Buster Olney of ESPN.com that a deal between the Mariners and Yankees is "just about done." It looks like this is really happening. It's a surprising turn of events given the fact that Yankees starting pitching is already pretty darn good, but the Mariners obviously value catching prospect Jesus Montero. The 20-year-old was ranked as the No. 4 prospect in the sport by Baseball America over the winter. Not many teams can top that one.
Except that Montero is miles better than anything the Red Sox have in their farm system. Let's be realistic, if Montero was in Pawtucket right now, all of New England would be salivating at the thought of this kid under team control for the next six years. And for a team with some fiscal restriant, that's much too high of a price to pay for 3 months of 1999-2000 Pedro Martinez, nevermind Cliff Lee.
Yanks are part of that statement; as Cashman has lowered payroll over the past few seasons while still acquiring the proper mix of talent to acquire Championships. The difference between Sox fiscal restraint and yanks fiscal restraint is merely the INJURY bug that has swept through the Sox clubhouse in many respects.
I'd love to know why Cliff Lee is different than Sabathia is in 2008. One could argue that the Yankees needed CC more in '08 than Lee in '10. Cashman's stance the past few years is not to give up prospects for guys that they can get for 'free' a few months later. I'd like to know why this time it's different. Not knocking Cashman at all but I would love to get an honest answer. And please stop throwing the 27 title stuff out there, they have nothing to do with this debate, especially when they won 5 of them because they hung onto their prospects instead of trading them for veterans (like the rumored Jeter and Rivera to Seattle deals back in the mid 90s or the Yankees trying to deal Pettitte to any team since George didn't care for him much). Which is the exact opposite of this situation today.
CC was in NL is the big reason! (The next best Catching Prospect is Twins...Cashman's views that a bigger threat than MIL in '08). And in '08 we were not in the exact same payroll position and stability in the organization with what the BOSS was dealing with vs. now with 2 sons. Little difference were big differences at the time. Spoken like a Sox fan (it has as much to do with the debate as claiming Yanks dont need to make this move), trying to claim the yanks and Cashman are making a mistake. Accept this as just another move to improve Yanks, and stop with the ILL-Advised Short Sighted nonsense and we can discuss further if necessary.
Cliff Lee gives you a realistic shot of winning this year, and next year.....a very realistic shot.....Monterio doesnt....
Look I'm not crying about the payrolls since the Red Sox aren't exactly the Florida Marlins and I have no problem with any teams spending money. But let's not pretend that the Yankees don't have an advantage in the payroll department. Again I'm not crying here but the Yankees can afford to have 4 guys making over 20 million dollars (with Arod making over 30!) a year and can still afford to possibly pay Lee over 20 million as well, even the Red Sox can't compete with that. Again I give the Yankees credit for spending the money if they have it.
Newsflash -- you already had a "very realistic shot" at winning this year without Lee. And nothing changes next year because, you know, the Yankees were going to sign him this offseason. Only they got him 3 months earlier for the price of a top 5 prospect, when it could have cost them some cash and a 1st round pick.
Ok, so whats the point about this Fiscal restraint statement if at the end of the day... 1) They can do it? 2) They decide to do it? 3) Its their decision over how they view what it takes to secure the 28th? Fiscal restraint is about making bad moves and not walking away with goal. That can be said to any team with any payroll and not walking away with the #1 goal on the list. It doesnt have to be WS Championship; all MLB organizations should have the #1 goal in reach based on their payroll...why spend the $$$ at all if you arent maximizing to achieve your goal? F-that mindset. for the Yanks, that goal is #28. So be it.
Newsflash, accept that Cashman and Yanks fans dont care about how others would handle it. Yanks have watched it handled multiple ways, and its still worked to get them the next Championship. Either way is win/win.
For the last time, I NEVER said this is a mistake. I just find this move to be curious and would love to know why Cashman is shying away from his plan of not trading prospects for guys they can sign at the end of the year. An honest explaination as to why he's doing this isn't unfair to ask. Nor is debating whether this move makes sense or not, it doesn't automatically mean it's a bad deal or a mistake. And Sabathia was on Cleveland to start the 2008 season and the Yankees were fighting to make the playoffs with Boston and Tampa Bay (much like this year). The difference between 2008 and 2010 is that CC in '08 would have meant more to the Yankees than Lee in 2010 does as CC might have pushed them past both the Rays and Sox in the division. I don't get the payroll position, as the Yankees were still spending over 200 million. Yeah maybe with Tommy Boy (Hank) in control of the team instead of Hal is now could have been a factor but my point remains the same.
The Mets, Phillies, Braves, and Sox(although I doubt it) could upstage them in the offseason, every team besides the Red Sox need for a good pitcher is greater than the Yanks.... Getting him now gives CC and AJ (Lee's good friends whom all share the same agent) to opportunity, to get it in Lee's head, that NY is the place to be...who knows what would happen if he doesnt play for NY, and just test the market....
You know, the two aren't mutually exclusive. No one is debating that this move doesn't make the Yankees better this season. But trading six-years of a 20-year old, top 5 prospect, for 3 months of Cliff Lee is the very definition of short-sighted.
Thats a contradiction, and whats narrowminded is claiming you know how things play out in the future. Yanks are concerned with 2010 and #28....#29 and 2011 and beyond will take care of themselves.
and thats really where it lands too, they obviously feel like their shots at winning 2 championships in 2 years is greater than a 20 yr old prospect....I concur... hey at least Knicks fans will be happy after last night hopefully...
