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Newton atop Dolphins draft board?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by PhinGeneral, Feb 9, 2011.

  1. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    The same way we tend to compare white WRs to other white WRs, and white RBs to other white RBs; we tend to compare black QBs to other black QBs. So Cam Newton will be compared to Vince Young, Jamarcus Russell, Pat White, Mike Vick, etc. Just like so many insisted on this board that Brian Hartline reminded them of Ed McCaffery or Steve Tasker.

    I'm sure there are some similarities. They are all athletic QBs. But it's still a mistake to judge one guy based on what another did in the NFL based on skin color.

    KB21,

    I try really hard not to notice trends in your QB analysis, but at this point, I have to ask: Has there ever been a black QB you've liked?
     
  2. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    When the report leaked about Vince making a 6, the media had to come up with something to spin it to where the report was false. The media couldn't have their great black hope being portrayed as a dummy.

    It wasn't wrongly reported. I wonder if Vince's make up test was an untimed test similar to the untimed ACT tests that certain schools get athletes to take who are too stupid to tie their own shoes, a la Jerrell Powe.

    Warren Moon.
     
  3. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Either way, with or without him we're going to have that...Unless you think
    he's going to come in and dominate right away....But again, since he's
    #1 on so many teams draft boards, he won't be there.

    (BTW..That's sarcasm because it's all a bunch of smoke.)
     
  4. uab_phin

    uab_phin New Member

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    You have to understand why this makes you look a bit unreasonable. Rather than simply accepting the fact that his score was higher than the first link you clicked on after a google search orginally suggested you decide to make up a conspiracy theory. I mean the simple fact that his score was leaked so early with no other scores being leaked should suggest to you that whoever was moderating the test for him probably wanted him to do badly and may have messed with his test.
     
  5. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Oh, that moderator must have been a racist.

    And the reason Vince Young has been a failure as a QB in the NFL - he's too damn stupid to be an NFL QB.
     
  6. uab_phin

    uab_phin New Member

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    ...I would lean more towards his suicidal tendencies and immaturity, especially considering his 26 - 13 record as a QB, while I understand people hate when record is used to assess how good a QB is, certainly it can be used to assess whether or not they are a failure on the field. I wouldn't want Vince Young here because he's not a leader and just seems very immature, but you have to admit that Cam Newton has already dealt with more controversy in college than Young had to at Texas. Regardless of whether or not Newton brought the controversy onto himself the fact that Newton continued to play at a high level through it all shows a difference between he and Young. The first time Vince Young ran into any resistance at the NFL he folded.
     
    schmolioot and Hurricane like this.
  7. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh, the irony!
     
  8. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Funny how it's not racist to use any of the words like "lacks football IQ" or "Lacks work ethic"
    for white QBs, but it is to use it for black QBs.

    From what I understand Cam may or may not have "football IQ" and it's reasonable to question it
    since in Auburns system he wasn't asked to make any intricate pre snap reads. He also
    got his keys sent in from the sideline. He's played predominatnly shotgun, so his ability
    to see the field in a pro style set is questioned. His character issues are already well
    documented, so I don't think it's racist to question any of these things.

    Now....Where I think there's a difference is just in the "sniff" test. Cam speaks like
    he's got a brain in his head, and, you can tell he's reasonably intelligent, unlike say
    Vince Young or Jamarcus Russell who have difficulty there.

    Really, he can make all the throws, but he's got lots of info to jam into his
    medulla oblongata to succeed in the pros, and, I don't think it's unreasonable
    to question if he can do it.
     
    uab_phin likes this.
  9. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic 30 years and counting Club Member

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    Well, Cam Newton would bring excitement to the fans initially. He has a TON of potential, but he also has a very long way to go to be NFL ready.
    If we draft him, and this team starts off mediocre again, you know what will happen. Tony will be forced to put Cam Newton in before he's ready and essentially will ruin Cam's career as Tony and co get booted at the end of the season.
    if we had the Falcons or Jets offenses and put Cam Newton in, I'd feel very different. The pieces are in place for him to be successful with some franchises. That is clearly not the case here: suspect Oline (interior), sub-average running game, no burner WRs to keep the defense honest, no stud receiving TE.
     
    The G Man likes this.
  10. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    Great post. I bolded the points that I thought made the most sense as to why I think we should not even consider drafting him at #15. In fact, I'll go on record as saying I think we need to trade down (assuming of course a trade partner can be secured), thereby reacquiring our second round pick. Then, draft BPA with an emphasis on offense with a late first pick, and again in the second, and third round. QB, speed WR, and play making TE would all be very high on my list (and, not necessarily in that order).

    JMHO...
     
  11. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Actually it was a conspiracy. The general opinion back then was that he was allowed to do a second Wonderlich. Also his score wasn't the only one leaked back then...it was just the 'juiciest' so people focused on it.
     
  12. uab_phin

    uab_phin New Member

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    This is the first reasonably thought out and stated version of why it would make sense to question Cam Newton's mental readiness in the NFL. Thank you for this. I don't think it's unreasonable to bring up character questions for any players in the draft, but like you said drafting Cam Newton would not be the equivalent of drafting Vince Young because they just have such different paths that got them to where they are. I personally am MUCH more concerned when I listen to Ryan Mallett speak then when I listen to Cam Newton. Jake Locker's lack of growth as a passer is also a bigger concern for me, I think that it's odd that people are not considering him a run first QB considering he's extremely athletic and is a less accomplished passer than Newton.
     
  13. uab_phin

    uab_phin New Member

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    I stand corrected, but regardless I think it's lazy to simply decide that the NFL let him take it again because they wanted him to succeed or to decide that just because Vince Young had a discounted score that his other one doesn't count. And if you are willing to look past the first one, without assuming conspiracy, than depending on the report Vince Young's wonderlic score ends up either the same as or right around our favorite QB's score.
     
  14. mroz

    mroz Rosen is a franchise QB Club Member

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    nothing new there... gotta remember this was the same guy that said Long could not play LT in the NFL.... Gotta take his opinion with a grain of salt.... but then again I guess you can say that for just about anyone here.
     
  15. jupiterfin

    jupiterfin Mild Irritant

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    Have you ever seen Cam's college GPA or grades? A previous wunderlich score? Perhaps a psychological evaluation? Maybe you've had personal interaction with him?

    Please, explain why you think Cam Newton is stupid, because all I see is you harboring some personal hatred for him.
     
  16. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just heard Trent Dilfer talk about Newton's workout. He was really impressed.

    Dilfer is 6'4 220 and he said Newton dwarfs him physically. He liked the way he moved and how the ball came out of his hand, which he said was explosive. Reiterated what I see in his mechanics, which is that they are pretty sound and compact.

    He thinks the common perception about the mental aspect of his game is a little underestimating him. He said toward the end of the season they started to implement more NFL style things in the passing game. This seems to be the biggest question mark with Newton becoming a good QB. Physically I don't think there is much doubt. But no one comes in being great at reading and reacting to defenses. It takes experience and work. Is he capable and willing to do it?
     
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  17. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    Chris Long was atop their board a few years back. Everything you hear this time of year is always true.
     
  18. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Dilfer said very similar things about Russell
     
  19. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I can see similarities as far as arm strength, size and mechanics. But I don't think people considered Russell to be near the same athlete they do Newton. Newton seems to have a very lean body. I would be surprised if Russell was as in shape at the same point.
     
  20. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Physically Russell was an amazing prospect. Mentally he was not all there, and now he is out the league chugging "Grape Drank" instead of throwing touchdowns. He held out into his first season and never really displayed any desire to be a complete player, ending up hated by coaches, teammates and fans.

    Is it possible Newton turns out similarly? Well yeah, there is a chance for anything. But by all accounts Cam is a dedicated person, a "first in, last out" guy, a teammate respected and loved by his peers and a leader. We will certainly perform out due diligence in trying to determine if he is what we want in a QB or Russell 2.0 and I trust Jeff and Tony way more than I trust Al Davis who has a tendency to often focus purely on upside and ability and ignoring other traits.
     
  21. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    It is more than possible. It is likely. However, Newton is more similar to Vince Young than Jamarcus Russell. Many thought Vince Young had great intangibles when he came out, which just goes to show you that most fans don't even know what intangibles are.
     
  22. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    Mike Mayock said it best. J Russell's Pro Day was the best that he has ever seen from a QB but he still did not think he was a 1st round pick. In other words, of course Newton looked great throwing the ball in shorts.

    He is a one read QB. Either he threw to a open WR or he ran. He is far from being a NFL QB yet alone a instant starter.

    When he was still a Gator we thought he was a taller, faster Tim Tebow. But then he cheated in classes and was found with a stolen laptop. So since he could not beat out Tebow, his dad made him leave (we know now that trouble was coming anyway).
     
  23. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Why wouldn't he leave? Seems to have worked out well for him.
     
  24. Gitrdone

    Gitrdone New Member

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    The bolded part is what we would need to find out before drafting him, if we feel he wouldn't do the work or be capable of it, then pass.
     
  25. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    Bottom line with me is I saw Cam play and he is a winner. Very unlike what we currently have on our roster.
     
  26. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Yeah, he's a winner.

    *Steals laptop computer. Check
    *Gets caught at least three times cheating and was going to be expelled from Florida. Check
    *Attempts to extort money from Mississippi State. Check
    *Lies about his attempt to extort money from Mississippi State. Check

    Yeah, we have a real winner here folks.
     
    brandon27 likes this.
  27. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    What does any of that have to do with him being a winner on the field? I understand your a henne supporter to no end and think he's the greatest QB ever, but do you really have to put every other QB down and act like there is no way they would be successful in the NFL?

    EDIT: Cam has won more in 1 year as a starter then henne has in his entire career.
     
  28. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    IMO it points to him aggressively taking the easy way out of tough situations,
    of which there will be many in the NFL. If he can't handle college classes,
    how does he handle a playbook in the NFL?

    Not saying he can't. Just saying I can see the concern. Plus, thieves
    absolutely skeeve me out.
     
    MarinePhinFan likes this.
  29. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    I don't care that he took a laptop. I don't know what the circumstances were about that. The guy could have owed him money. Who knows? It is a concern for me, but not a big one.

    The cheating concerns me more. I think a lot of athletes take the easy way out and are given the easy way out just because of their talent. It happens all the time in sports. ALL sports. The cheating has me questioning his intelligence. Can he learn a playbook, read and understand a defense? I have watched him on the field in most of his games this year and what I see on the field is magic. If he is nothing more than a great QB in the NFL and as smart as a box of hair off the field, I wouldn't care. As long as my favorite team wins.
     
  30. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Oh sure. I don't care if he can't spell "cat" spotted the C and T. If he can digest a playbook, thats
    all I care about as well. Problem is; It rarely works that way.
     
  31. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic 30 years and counting Club Member

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    So was Jay Fielder, doesn't mean I want him QBing our team again.
     
  32. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Any person that makes it into the NFL is a "winner". The key is to find out if they can still keep up the "winning" once they get there. Some do and some don't.

    I doubt Newton does.
     
  33. princekong2

    princekong2 New Member

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    Alright Since There is already alot Cam Newton Threads I Chose Not To Make One And Ask This Question Here
    Would You Guys Be Okay If We Did Draft Mr.Newton and he Gets "Special Training" From Someone Likee Umm Dan Marino?

    I Would
     
  34. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    I'm biased because I'd do it anyway, but yeah.

    If we end up not drafting a QB, I wouldn't be opposed to Marino working with Henne either...

    No brainer.
     
  35. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    He is getting that special training by Warren Moon, that works for me.
     
  36. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting...the NCAA, who does an amazingly thorough job of investigating infractions, was not able to find Cam was in any way involved in his father's conversation with Mississippi St. and yet you are able to report this as fact.
     
  37. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    All good points.

    Russell never came close to being able to make plays with his legs like Newton can. That alone will help Newton as he goes through the learning process on the field. In the early part of his career Newton will likely make a lot of plays by taking off with the football. And what is wrong with that? As he gets more experience he will hang in the pocket a while longer.

    Another point regarding comparisons to Russell is if Newton is drafted by Miami at #15 then he won't be getting that 6 year $61 contract with $32 million guaranteed. Newton will have to earn that type of contract and have proven himself in the NFL over a 5 year period. Especially since it seems that will be one of the main points of the CBA by the owners which is capping rookie salaries.
     
  38. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/spo...aveHyde-blog+(Dave+Hyde+|+Sun+Sentinel+blogs)

    So what are the facts?

    1. Newton, whilst at Florida, was arrested by police after purchasing a stolen laptop. When it seemed as though he would be caught, he threw the computer out of his dorm window. On his arrest he was charged, according to Alachua County jail records, with burglary, larceny and obstruction of justice. The laptop belonged to a Florida student called Paul Loschak who reported it stolen in October of 2008. A week later he got an email from the school to say that his internet access was being shut down for using the file share programme Limewire, something he’d never installed on his computer. Campus authorities found that someone using Newton’s school log-in was using the computer and moved to arrest the then Gator back up QB. Loschak said he decided against pursuing the charges because he was graduating from UF in the spring and didn't want to return for court hearings. He also was afraid of retribution if Newton was kicked off the team, stating that at the time he was “more interested in my safety." Newton was required to attend anti-theft counseling, write an apology letter to Loschak and do 50 hours of community service in exchange for charges eventually being dropped.

    2. That Newton was guilty of academic dishonesty whilst at Florida. He decided to transfer in the spring of 2009 because he wanted to play football. Understandable given his talent and the fact that he was behind Tim Tebow on the depth chart. However it was revealed in the late fall of 2010 that he was facing possible expulsion from the University at the time of his transfer after a Fox.com report that he had a “cheating issue” in his freshman year and then two more in his sophomore year. Whilst information about the freshman transgression is sketchy, as a sophomore Newton put his name on another student's paper and turned it in. Newton then turned in a second paper to the instructor, but that was later found to have been purchased off the Internet. Student conduct records are protected by law so it’s doubtful further information will be forthcoming.

    3. Newton was guilty of a number of traffic violations during his time in Gainesville. Alachua County records again state that a Cameron Jerrell Newton with the Auburn quarterback's birth date of May 11 1989 had 12 tickets over a two-year period. All of them were for minor moving or non moving traffic violations: failure to stop at a red light, tag obscured/improperly displayed, unlawful speeding, failure to obey, passing in a no passing zone, drivers license not carried, running a red light, failure to obey, unlawful speed, drivers license not carried, violation of municipal speed limit and knowingly driving whilst suspended.

    4. The most damaging allegations against Newton were those that came to light early in November and surrounded his father, Cecil Newton Sr. and his demanding of money from Mississippi State for Cam to sign there after leaving Blinn Community College. John Bond, an ex MSU QB said he was approached by a former teammate on behalf of Cam’s father, asking for $180,000 in exchange for sending his son there. There was a lot of intrigue surrounding Cecil Newton’s church, the Holy Zion Centre of Deliverance which has struggled to keep the city from condemning it due to the extensive repairs needed. The NCAA closely examined how Cam ended up at Auburn but ruled that he had no knowledge of any improper payments being made on his behalf and ruled him eligible to play. What’s interesting about this is the role of Dan Mullen, the MSU coach. I tried unsuccessfully to discover whether Cam’s brother, Cecil Jr. who plays for the Jacksonville Jaguars, was recruited by Mullen when he was at Utah in 2003-4. But what I do know is that when Cam himself was a high school junior in 2005, Mullen was integral in recruiting him to Florida. During that initial recruitment process, Cam’s father was quoted as saying: “Dan Mullen is a good friend of mine". It was a line that came up again when Newton was being recruited by the Bulldogs on leaving Blinn. On that occasion his choice was narrowed to three schools, MSU, Auburn and Oklahoma and Cecil was again quoted discussing his admiration for Mullen who was now HC at Mississippi State: “We are fond of Dan and Cameron is fond of Dan. Dan is fond of Cam. That may have the makings of a good marriage.” The abiding question for me is that is if the relationship between Mullen and Cam Newton was as strong as has been reported on both sides – Mullen’s wife and Cam were friends – why didn’t he go to MSU? It’s a question Mullen himself was asked himself on Rivals radio and the response was a fascinating insight: “That’s a long, long story. That’ll be in the book.”
     
  39. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    If it appears as though Newton is atop our draft board, it's to make us seem like we're interested in him to elevate his draft status so that:
    A. he's hopefully drafted before us which could make the difference in Ingram being available at our pick.
    B. the value of our #15 slot is improved to facilitate trading back.
     
  40. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    makes sense to me, can't see going up in this draft to pick a QB. we need too many quality picks on offense to squander them on a could-be franchise player
     
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