New: Tim Tebow, the Wildcat.....and New England

Yeah I agree, we just have different views of the throw no biggie, thats why we are here to debate.

You are going to be outnumbered when sticking up for Tebow's pro career, but nice to see you standing up for what you believe in without being a jerk, hopefully the same gratitude is given to you.

 

I appreciate that, thank you. Again, I'm no homer- I'm not A UF fan and I have no partular interest in or infatuation with Tebow. I just see his game as being dumped on left and right accross on this site, Kiper, McShay, etc. I call them like I see them, and I see Tebow as a solid QB prospect. If I'm the Vikings or the Jets, he's gone by round two at the latest. And if Grahm harrell is there in rds 3 or 4 I take him, too. I just have a feeling about that guy.

The team that I really see as a fit is the Vikings, and I'm not much concerned with the WCO issue at all. Domed stadium, AP in the backfield- add Tebow and the leadership, winning attitude on top of all his other attributes- Minnesota needs a winner at QB and this might be the guy.

I don't see Tebow lasting beyond the second round, and him being picked from #s 17-32 wouldn't surprise me either. The Bears passed on Henne last year to take Forte- they're another team that could use an efficient winner at QB, and I couldn't care less about the UF/Rex Grossman connection. Another team that could be interested- the Titans late in the 1st. K Collins isn't getting any younger. V Young flamed out- by no means does that indicate that Tebow will do the same, and I could see Jeff Fisher falling in love with his intangibles and ability to lead/drive/will a team to win.

 

I can accept that Jim1 - at least you said it wasn't for you. Thats not punking out, punking out would say you'd do it etc. and never follow through. I can respect that response. If I do get the time I will, it would lead to a healthy debate I reckon.

 

Thank you, I appreciate that. This isn't a right or wrong issue, only opinion. I'm still very curious as to the GBN take on things and I emailed Colin Lindsay myself, I'd be very curious to hear what he has to say on the matter.

Has there ever been a more controversia/polarizing prospect than Tebow? Kiper/McShay/Marcellus Wiley see him as a FB/TE/HB. Lindsay has him going #17 to the Jets as a QB. Whether I end up being right or wrong, it should be fascinating to see what Tebow does or does not do in the pros.

 

Just for ****s and giggles, why does David Johnson from Tulsa get no love from talent people? Has anyone seen this guy play?

 

I'm curious as to why you think that he can't read a defense. I've seen him scan the field plenty of times. To use Stafford and Bradford as templates- does he lag far behind those two. If so, I haven't seen it.

 

1. Is Jackson a bust? Don't believe he is. The problem with Tarvaris is that they're trying to turn him into something he isn't. Does that ring any bells?

2. I'm not sure where I said I'd be contacting Colin about anything. And I'm pretty sure I don't need to rely on Colin's opinion. I'm not sure why you'd think he'd have any more insight than me.

3. Tebow IS NOT a 3 step drop and deliver short, accurate passes in stride to people. You can piss and moan all you like about him running a West Coast offense, but if you saw him make ANY typically consistent WCO throws in Florida games this season, then you're understanding of that offensive system is skewed. Any success that he DID have from the short passing game was created by the spread offense. Surely that has to be clear to you?

This debate is utterly ridiculous. A spread offense QB, with bad feet, an age long delivery and scattergun accuracy is being mentioned in the same post as Steve Young.

Bill Walsh is quite literally spinning in his grave.

 

OK.....we're onto something......what's a more difficult defense to read? A pressure defense like the Ravens or the Eagles or a team facing the spread where it ha to substitute linebackers for nickel and dime defenders and you have 5 targets on every play which means 5 open holes which means room to run if no-one's open.

That won't happen in the NFL.

Tebow is probably the best collegiate player I've seen since I started watching this game 22/23 years ago, but he's not going to run an NFL offense with any alacrity unless it's the spread. He's not a conventional dropback passer and he's not a WC passer.

 

I've seen Tebow deliver enough short, accurate passes in stride- his TD/INT ratio and completion percentage seem to fly in the face of your analysis.

You can rant and rave about the WCO all you want, my belief is that Tebow can handle it. What's utterly difficult to believe is that you're so completely convinced that you're right.

As to Colin Linsday, I pretty much knew that you, for whatever reason, would fail to contact him and ask him to flesh out his opinion of Tebow. That's a shame since you already knowe the guy and have worked for him, right? So I contacted him myself- it will be interesting to hear what he has to say about Tebow, and you as well.

 

Again, I watch him as compared to a guy like Bradford, and I fail to see your point. The point is moot- we'll see sooner or later how Tebow fares in the NFL, we're all just flapping our gums right now. Time to chew on something new.

 

Again, because he's throwing out of the spread. Or do you not understand that?

Ranting and raving would be to lose control. The only loss of control is brought on by laughter.

Again, where did you ask me to contact Colin? And again, why would I want Colin's opinion on Tebow?

I look forward to hearing what he has to say about me. I would imagine since I gave his website the information that Willis McGahee was going to be the Bills first round pick 5 days before it happened, that he'd say nice things. I'd also imagine that given the relationships that I built with a couple of players, Chris Crocker, etc. and the information that Crock gave me and that I subsequently gave GBN about the exact team, round and numerical position that he was drafted, that Colin again would have nothing but platitudes.

But I wait in rapt anticipation.

 

But you DO understand that Bradford doesn't play in the spread don't you?

And the point is only moot if you don't quite know what you're talking about.

 

I agree with everything you (and Alan and Muck) say about us. I wonder if some desperate team (Detroit, say, though I don't think that would work because they play on turf) would try drafting him and installing a Wildcat-type offense full time. From your post it looks like you think that would be a bad idea, but does anyone else disagree?

 

Hey, Boomer, nice to see you!

 

Bradford plays out of the shotgun. Tebow plays out of a spread, often out of a no huddle, with multple WR sets. Gee, that changes everything, how could I have missed that.

 

None of the experts are projecting him to go day one. I just dont know. I know the "experts" are wrong some of the time, but there is such a strong consensus against Tebow its almost scary. If we actually took someone for the gimmick offenses we run I would think Pat White would be a better choice over Tebow.

 

I'm out- there's too much fighting and I'm at the center of a lot of it. Time to go.

 

It is not that easy.

Yes Jim, because we know one head-to-head matchup decides everything.

Bradford is not Mike Vick here when we're talking about mobility but if you took time to watch that Oklahoma State - Oklahoma game, he showed some mobility. The reason I would pick Bradford over Tim Tebow is because he is far more accurate, has a good arm and is consistent. He did get rattled against the UF defense and he did throw two interceptions - one which his wide receiver dropped and another one in which his wide receiver tipped up in the air and got intercepted. Regarding Bradford playing out of the shotgun, that's one of my concerns about him. Absolutely.

 

Tebow has a very accurate arm. There is a myth out there that his accuracy is erratic but it must come from people who don't watch Tebow play much. He throws the ball into very tight windows and doesn't seem to lose much accuracy when he's throwing on the run. Tebow is also a great decision maker. For my money those are the two most important qualities for a QB. He also has a strong enough arm. I'd say he's above average. He's also a very good deep ball passer. I'd like him to be a little taller but he's in the range and he's clearly not a fragile guy. His mechanics are erratic especially when pressured but it doesn't seem to compromise his accuracy. His release is slow but not as slow as some other NFL QBs. Tebow's biggest deficiency is that he has never learned to play in rhythm. He's asked to do it maybe once or twice per game and he usually does it well (it always surprises me) but I don't believe he can do it consistently. Mechanics to me are among the most correctable of flaws, particularly if the QB has the intangibles and Tebow's intangibles are off the charts. I wouldn't bet against a guy with his leadership and work ethic.

I would take a shot on him in the 2nd round. I'd tell him to expect to work on his mechanics for two to three years before being a realistic option under center but that he'll get on the field in other ways from day 1. (IMO a QB who was primarily a shotgun passer in college needs at least that long to adapt). During those first few years I would play him at RB/FB in short yardage situations. I'd use him at H-back and TE. Heck, I'd even use him at LB if I had a need. I'd use him in the wildcat and other read formations. Contrary to popular opinion I believe the wildcat and other read offenses will be used more in the future, not less. Yes, we used it b/c we had a talent deficiency, but we did it b/c it provided an advantage scheme wise. That advantage will still exist even as our talent increases. It would be foolish to give up that advantage. As for Tebow I think he's a football player and having football players on your team is valuable.

 

Maybe people believe he's a product of Gus Malzahn? I'm not sure, I haven't seen him play. He looks good?

 

The two sets are different in terms of reads, progressions, even route combinations run by the wide outs etc. The Shotgun is not the spread, and vice versa. Urban Meyer's offense isn't even a normal version of a spread offense for that matter; it is very specialized.

 

I think he does, yes. But that Gus guy, he has something to do with my dropping Johnson's name into this discussion. Why does Johnson not get noticed? Does he not do similar things to Tebow? Or, how about that QB from Arkansas St. I think who is a dual threat supreme.

I'd like to see what the hype would be like if both players were in the SEC, as opposed to the WAC, Sunbelt, etc. (They aren't there, but juts naming smaller conferences)

 

Interesting.

 

Both Coaches are known as spread guys, one more in the run the other in the pass. The QB's a amazing athletes, and both are used to attack defenses both on the ground or in the air at some point during the game.

I am just amazed that Tebow is god, and Johnson is well.......who? I am just taking a different tack with this discussion.

I wonder why Alex Smith has failed miserably in any offense other than Norv Turner's, and even then he had Jay Fiedler like numbers? Didn't Smith offer many of the same things Tebow does? Not at the same level, but very close really. Same offense. Chris Leak?

 

I'm not sure Alex Smith's failure was necessarily due to the system at Utah. It had, in my mind, a lot more to do with him being thrown into the starting job way too early behind an abysmal line, something that has quite a tendency to kill a young QB historically.

 

Those are good points man. I think Gus' offense was number four this year and number one last year in passing. They chuck it a lot and run a up-tempo offense IIRC. I would guess that he just passes a lot so people don't look at him the same way as these other guys. Then again, look at Colt Brennan at Hawaii.

 

Smith's failure aren't the system's fault at all. Not that direction Ven, turn tack and come back the other way. I think that the system masks a great deal of any inadequacies players have. Smith faced similar questions about his development; footwork etc.

The bad team thing I agree with, but again not going that way with it. Just pointing out that so far a QB making the switch to the pro style from the spread hasn't worked out very well. However, taking a regular QB and asking to play the spread does seem to provide some early results; Tyler Thigpen for instance, Tom Brady.

 

There is actually a study that I'd be interested in: A QB"s hand size as precursor to success or failure in the NFL. I've read that Smith has small hands- has this been a significant factor in his demise? And also the NFL versus NCAA footballs- is there size difference between the two, and could that be of concern re: a college prospect's arm translating to the NFL?

 

culpepper had tiny hands(which is why he always fumbled) but he had a lot of success in Minni. You can argue it was all Randy Moss but he did have a lot of success.

 

Jim there is a difference in the shape and thus the width of the Pro ball as opposed to a college ball. College is a little fatter in the middle.

The hand issue has been debated greatly. Culpepper has small hands and that was attributed to many of his fumbles. I don't know that his hand size affects his ability to throw versus a zone or not though. That is still mental, unless you can't throw the ball with any velocity over 10 yards or something fenominal like that to make the problem physical.

 

There is one that relates college starts to success in the NFL. The make it or break it mark was essentially 2 years starting experience in college. Under it players tended to fail at a higher rate than those that had over 2 years experience.

 

I perfectly agree, Con. I was merely pointing out that Alex Smith isn't exactly a good example for this thesis as he was essentially put in a position to fail. Sure, we'll never know if he would've succeeded in a better situation but I think that in this case, we're dealing with an environment that has historically killed young QBs of various systems, so the role of the system in Smith's failure is pretty much unknown.

Let's, for instance, take a look at the other guy drafted in round 1 back then, Aaron Rodgers. Here's another guy who came from a "system" that historically failed to produce good NFL QBs (Tedford) and while the jury's still out on Rodgers, I guess we can agree on him being a much more capable QB after sitting behind Favre for a couple of years and eventually starting for a team that might not be great but is a far cry from the mess Smith walked into.

 

Check your spelling....

Culpepper's issue was never arm strength it was when the Minnesota OL didnt give him five seconds to wind up and throw a fly-ball to R. Moss. When he is/was pressured in teh least bit he crumbled, whenever he had to make a quick read(Pitt season opener??) he failed. He was spoiled with a GREAT OL and an all world Wr and a good running game, you take him out of that element and he is subpar as a Qb in this league.

 

I would think that the hand size issue is far more important in bad weather, the ability to grip on to the ball in less than ideal circumstances. Favre has big paws, I'm sure that it doesn't hurt.

Here's an article by Rick Gosselin- more about what scouts look for in terms of measurables:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...elin/stories/040107dnspogosselin.3d58630.html