Needing God to be good

"padre31 wrote:

LO, there is a difference, for example Stalin did feed the fmr peasants, a "good" act, he also would dine with those perceived political enemies that he signed their death warrants at the very table they were eating dinner at...

Righteous and "Good" are different things.

I don't mean to seem combative here, but aren't righetous and good synonyms?

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

I guess I am still not sure what the question is in this thread. Is humanity inherantly good? No, we are inherantly sinful, that is we choose self over others. Can people do good things without the obvious, direct inflence of God? Obviously yes. That answer comes from human observation. Though if we are indeed "created in the image of God" then perhaps the question is moot because God is somehow imprinted into our DNA whether we relate to it or not.

Am I good? No, I am a sinner at the same time I am a redeemed saint. Both, always.

Am I on the target?

You have struck one of my favorite intelectual excercises.

Is selfish bad?

I just posted how I think people are inherently good. The reason why I believe they are is because being good to others makes the person feel good themselves. So the motive to be good becomes a selfish one.

I hope I do not offend anyone with the next part. I typicaly like to use mother teressa as an example of what I mean. She was considered a very selfless person for all her generous charitable work. If you think about it I think its fair to assume she felt very gratified and that her work was spiritual rewarding. She also may of been motivated by thinking it was what God wanted her to do and it was her path to get into Heaven. Im not saying these are bad reasons or she is an evil person but I would argue her motivations are selfish.

My point is that I do not view being selfish as bad. The desire to harm is bad but everything that is selfish isnt motivated by that desire to hurt.

"padre31 wrote:

Ah, but if a family member of Bill Gates had a 10k loan from him, if they did not pay it back they'd justify themselves by saying he already had billions anyway.

They might rationalize their bad behavior that way if they needed the money and had no way to repay it. It kind of reminds me of the argument the left is making about raising taxes on the rich :lol:

"Laces Out wrote:

I don't mean to seem combative here, but aren't righetous and good synonyms?

The definition that christians would define as righteous from the bible is "in right standing with God" which is something that is impossible to do by good deeds. You can only be righteous according to the bible by having a relationship with God and "having the blood of Jesus wash your sins away" by asking forgiveness and turning from your sin. In the old testament, righteousness was obtained by sacrificing an animal to God and asking forgiveness. This was no longer necesarry once Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind.
But to answer your question, there is definitely a difference from righteousness and good.

I think spmethingelse worth mentioning is that good is a subjective term. Kind of like defining art

Shulaguy, I think an example of people being what i call "bent toward sin" and having evil desires can be seen by observing little kids play with toys. lol. They always get upset when someone plays with their toys, they aren't inclined to share, and they often hit one another. know what I mean?
But they can be raised to be good kids and good people without ever having a relationship with God.

"shula_guy wrote:

They might rationalize their bad behavior that way if they needed the money and had no way to repay it. It kind of reminds me of the argument the left is making about raising taxes on the rich :lol:

Yessir, it sort of is.

Gosh, that seems to be unethical..nah, course not, redistributing rewards for political game is NOT a power game..:rolleyes:

If you think about it I think its fair to assume she felt very gratified and that her work was spiritual rewarding. She also may of been motivated by thinking it was what God wanted her to do and it was her path to get into Heaven .

I understand your question;philosophy 101. I do disagree/object to the bolded/underlined portion of your quote. Christians, especially ones like Mother Theresa do not DO something IN ORDER to be saved but inherantly because they are grateful to a God who has already brought them back into relationship. Not in order to be saved but because one is saved. It is gratitude rather than obligation.

Of course none of that really answers your "Is everything . everyone does selfish"? question. I'm gonna duck that one because we Christians use the sense of selfishness as the root of original sin and talk about it in different ways.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

Shulaguy, I think an example of people being what i call "bent toward sin" and having evil desires can be seen by observing little kids play with toys. lol. They always get upset when someone plays with their toys, they aren't inclined to share, and they often hit one another. know what I mean?
But they can be raised to be good kids and good people without ever having a relationship with God.

I dont know. I will think on that example. I tend to think that they act that way not out of bad intent but because they dont comphrehend and think they being deprived of something. They are behaving selfishly but I dont know I go as far as saying evil.

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

I understand your question;philosophy 101. I do disagree/object to the bolded/underlined portion of your quote. Christians, especially ones like Mother Theresa do not DO something IN ORDER to be saved but inherantly because they are grateful to a God who has already brought them back into relationship. Not in order to be saved but because one is saved. It is gratitude rather than obligation.

Of course none of that really answers your "Is everything . everyone does selfish"? question. I'm gonna duck that one because we Christians use the sense of selfishness as the root of original sin and talk about it in different ways.

Intresting perspective that I have never considered. Its so obvious Im a little embarassed to admit to that. I do agree though it would make sense that it was her way of showing grattitude to her diety. I thank you for that one. It is good food for thought.

I'm just beginning to define God to myself... For now I see it this way.

Good is an idea from a persons individual ego standpoint... My own idea of what 'should' and 'shouldn't' be.

But that's above my spiritual pay grade to decide.

God sees the bigger picture. We must accept what comes our way and find the good in it, and make good of it. Even evil can beget good.

"shula_guy wrote:

I dont know. I will think on that example. I tend to think that they act that way not out of bad intent but because they dont comphrehend and think they being deprived of something. They are behaving selfishly but I dont know I go as far as saying evil.

when I say evil I don't intend the normal connotation of the word that most people think of when they hear the word evil. I mean anything that would be classified as sin. Even something like being selfish or telling a white lie or anything minor like that. IMO evil is anything like that, anything that draws someone away from God. Anything that would require the need to ask God for forgiveness I would classify as sinful or evil.

"shula_guy wrote:

Intresting perspective that I have never considered. Its so obvious Im a little embarassed to admit to that. I do agree though it would make sense that it was her way of showing grattitude to her diety. I thank you for that one. It is good food for thought.

I will say that when I first became a christian I had an over whelming desire to do things I wouldn't normally do. I would go "street wittnessing" and as I told people about God I would say things like,"the only reason I am talking to is because God is in me and God loves you and he wants me to tell you what I am telling you". It was my only way to explain it and that was what I knew to be true. Because without God being in me I had no other reason to do things like that.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

when I say evil I don't intend the normal connotation of the word that most people think of when they hear the word evil. I mean anything that would be classified as sin. Even something like being selfish or telling a white lie or anything minor like that. IMO evil is anything like that, anything that draws someone away from God. Anything that would require the need to ask God for forgiveness I would classify as sinful or evil.

Thats a problem for me because Im an Atheist. I define evil as the intent to cause harm without a just reason which is very different from your definition.

I will share the same disclaimer I shared in my first thread in this religion forum.
I currently don't have a relationship with God, so forgive me if you ever see me in another forum talking about God but also not acting like a christian. I always feel a need to defend God in other threads when I see certain comments people make. I am very knowledgable about the bible to the point where I know most greek and hebrew definitions of english words in the bible. I actually am a reverend but I don't even go to church anymore. I went through a divorce, became bitter and sort of fell away from God.
I just wanted everyone to know that because I do have a tendacy to talk about God and the bible when certain things are brought up in the POFO forum. And I realize that I do that in several posts and I also get into some heated conversations and say things I shouldn't say. But like I was trying to say, I wouldn't even define myself as a christian for the time being. I hope to change that soon.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

I will share the same disclaimer I shared in my first thread in this religion forum.
I currently don't have a relationship with God, so forgive me if you ever see me in another forum talking about God but also not acting like a christian. I always feel a need to defend God in other threads when I see certain comments people make. I am very knowledgable about the bible to the point where I know most greek and hebrew definitions of english words in the bible. I actually am a reverend but I don't even go to church anymore. I went through a divorce, became bitter and sort of fell away from God.
I just wanted everyone to know that because I do have a tendacy to talk about God and the bible when certain things are brought up in the POFO forum. And I realize that I do that in several posts and I also get into some heated conversations and say things I shouldn't say. But like I was trying to say, I wouldn't even define myself as a christian for the time being. I hope to change that soon.

Embracing the hate is a good start Darth Ricky soon you will be a sith lord like myself. Stick with it. :shifty:

"shula_guy wrote:

Thats a problem for me because Im an Atheist. I define evil as the intent to cause harm without a just reason which is very different from your definition.

Nope, evil in NLP terms, is seeing something that is a fact, and calling it something else.

That suspension of reason, or faith, is evil.

For example, see something the color "red" and then call it "blue", that off centre feeling you get is the true feel of evil

"padre31 wrote:

Nope, evil in NLP terms, is seeing something that is a fact, and calling it something else.

That suspension of reason, or faith, is evil.

For example, see something the color "red" and then call it "blue", that off centre feeling you get is the true feel of evil

By that definition I guess you would consider me evil since i have no faith? Dont worry about offending me its ok if you think my nature is evil

"shula_guy wrote:

By that definition I guess you would consider me evil since i have no faith? Dont worry about offending me its ok if you think my nature is evil

Nope, are you willing to call something you've seen, something that it is not?

I've swum in deep pools of folks so evil SG, I literally do not wish that on anyone, the willingness to do the above is evidence of evil, or an evil nature.

Say that is not a yellow colored fish, but a blue colored fish, and then one can experience the first stirrings of "evil"

"padre31 wrote:

Nope, are you willing to call something you've seen, something that it is not?

I've swum in deep pools of folks so evil SG, I literally do not wish that on anyone, the willingness to do the above is evidence of evil, or an evil nature.

I was just wondering if you thought lacking faith meant evil.

What I find interesting when talking to a zealot trying to convince me. They get very frustrated and act like I can control not having faith, I cant force myself to believe in something. When I want to frustrate the heck out them I tell them faith is a gift that god did not give me. It ussauly stumps them for a decent response.

This is interesting to me Shula Guy, are you able to call the yellow fish, a blue fish?

As for zealots, eh, more or less they were the patriots of Christ's day, in fact he had one or two in his Apostolic leadership

"shula_guy wrote:

Embracing the hate is a good start Darth Ricky soon you will be a sith lord like myself. Stick with it. :shifty:

That really made me laugh.

"padre31 wrote:

This is interesting to me Shula Guy, are you able to call the yellow fish, a blue fish?

As for zealots, eh, more or less they were the patriots of Christ's day, in fact he had one or two in his Apostolic leadership

Are you asking me if I can lie?

"shula_guy wrote:

Are you asking me if I can lie?

In a way, simple test in a way.

For example, say illegal aliens...undocumented workers...same thing...different name..if one is able to do so one is capable of evil

Though they'd argue night and day about it...but will never listen...

"padre31 wrote:

In a way, simple test in a way.

For example, say illegal aliens...undocumented workers...same thing...different name..if one is able to do so one is capable of evil

Though they'd argue night and day about it...but will never listen...

I think I get what your asking now. I would say yes Im capable of evil. I think your oversimplifing it but I get your point. I am capable of murder as wll but would only do it as a last resort defense. The actions are neither good or evil without the intent behind it. I can call a yellow fish blue but the reason why I do it determines if it was an evil deed IMO