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My opinion we dont have a bigtime coach or Qb

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Nov 5, 2023.

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  1. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    People like you and me don't need to hold QBs to different standards. The loss wasn't on Mahomes. His WR dropped the go ahead TD. Hurts' INT wasn't on him. AJ Brown went cowboy and ran a different route and no, the QB isn't always going to just see it and throw it. Also, Hurts badly under threw Smith on the big pass late, SO WHAT. It was completed and led to the win.
     
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  2. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Yep. Each QB, as Tua has done is every game this year, played well enough for their respective teams to win. I mean, Hurts has 3 games and Mahomes has 4 games with passer ratings under 80 this season. Tua has exactly 0 of those. Yet the Eagles are 9-1 and the Chiefs and Dolphins are both 7-3. Acting as if the QB doesn't rely on the other 21 players on defense and offense is just absurd.
     
  3. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    I've liked your post because I finally understand where you are coming from but I completely disagree with your take.

    Has Mahomes looked elite this season without better WR when teams have finally started to take Kelce away? To me, he looks like a JAG, sure he's out there running around and making a couple of ridiculous plays per game but his stats are way down as he can't do it all himself. If you take this season in a bubble and forget about the seasons with Tyreek you would never think Mahomes is a first ballot HOF watching this season even with all his scrambling, throwing off balance, rocket arm plays.

    We have just recently watched an old guy in his 40's win a 6th Superbowl by staying in the pocket, reading the defence, getting the ball out quickly and accurately to his receivers. That's the kind of guy I want Tua to become, tuck into a ball if you are going to get sacked, throw the ball away if nothing is there and play for the next 15 years while still being able to process defences quickly, get the ball out quickly and put it right in the receivers hands on time.

    You value the athletically gifted players as you think their athleticism has a better shot at overcoming any offensive deficiencies, that's fine, but personally I'd prefer to have a Brady, Manning or Brees type of QB.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2023
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  4. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Nobody knows what his "stats' would look like throwing to those guys because it's not happening. This is a figment of your imagination! A mirage! A conjured up scenario in your own mind which appears to be your own worst enemy at the same time! Why can't you just be thankful that we have Hill and Waddle? Let's just enjoy the ride while it lasts. If you want to wait it out until Tua is in year 8 of his career when Hill and possibly Waddle are no longer here to see if your theory holds up, go right ahead. The rest of us are going to focus on now. Right now we're 7-3 and currently in the drivers seat of the division. If we can continue winning games, we may have a shot at the #1 seed in the playoffs! How awesome would that be?
     
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  5. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    It's actually worse than that. This narrative about Tue needing great players to be elite is just plain stupid because we DO know what happens when an elite QB has an average to below average supporting cast. All QB's need a good supporting cast, but somehow it's only a knock on Tua if he does and if he doesn't. It's absurd.

    For example, this year Mahomes as a 93 passer rating and the team is 7-3 because Mahomes' receivers can't catch. If not for Kelce, Mahomes' numbers would be far worse. The team is lucky because their defense is playing lights out. If they had the same defense of years past they'd probably be under .500. That doesn't mean Mahomes isn't elite, he will most likely retire as the GOAT, but even the GOAT needs a good supporting cast to put up elite numbers. If Tua had KC's WR's his numbers would most likely be about what Mahomes has, but to some this would mean Tua isn't any good because he "can't make the players around him better". Which is another stupid narrative. If the QB gets the ball to the receiver, and the receiver drops it, can't break a tackle, or can't get separation, how is that a knock on the QB? It's not, unless your name is Tua. I mean he was criticized up one wall and down another when he had Devante Parker and Mike Gesicki. Look what Tua did with those guys compared to what Mac Jones is doing with those guys. Look what Mahomes did with Tyreek and look at what Tua is doing with Tyreek.
     
  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Brother, let me tell you how the post above reads to everyone else: Tua's not as good as Mahomes. Mahomes is great. Tua is no Mahomes. Not that Tua's bad, but he needs great players around him. Mahomes doesn't. I'm not being passive aggressive, even though everything I just said was passive aggressive.

    Now let me counter that. Mahomes has scored zero second half points the past two weeks. His team leads the league in drops and he literally is that entire offense. Yes, Mahomes is better than Tua because he's by far the best QB in the league...probably the best player in the league. He's historically good, in fact, and maybe one of the best ever. But at the same time, Mahomes can't overcome bad skill players just like any other QB can't. Kelce is not enough...he needs more weapons or that team is going to get donkey-stomped in the playoffs, despite having one of the best QB's ever.

    It's unfair to compare Tua to one of the best ever- that shouldn't be the standard and it frustrates people. Yet if we're honest, Tua's standing right there with him for the past two seasons.

    Hill and Waddle absolutely help Tua, plus the after the catch explosions do help his numbers greatly. But at the same time, you also have to realize that most NFL quarterbacks would be getting sacked 10x a game with this offensive line and they wouldn't complete half the passes Tua completes because they don't have enough time. Mahomes would thrive in our offense, and Tua would struggle in KC....just like Mahomes is struggling. The "average" QB in KC's offense wouldn't score 14 per game, it's a bad offense with a superstar QB.

    You're correct in your assessment- Mahomes is better than Tua (and 31 other starting NFL quarterbacks). I don't understand why you're trying to make that point though when you know it's just going to anger others.
     
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  7. Ryan

    Ryan Member

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    More power to those STILL entertaining posters that struggle evaluating the QB position.

    But with thanksgiving in a couple days and after another Phins win in what’s looking like our best season (by far) since the turn of the century, LETS GO DOLPHINS! Thank you Tua for finally being the franchise QB this team has looked for since Marino!
     
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah I get it. But I'm not concerned with who is "better," because they're both great.

    Why is it problematic to just admit that other QBs have advantages that Tua doesn't?

    Again, where have I ever called to get rid of Tua? People will read whatever they want into what I say. I thought forums were for conversation and opinions? Why did no one argue that I was comparing Fiedler and Tua? Oh, because I wasn't saying Fiedler was better.

    Just like I'm not saying that Mahomes is better because he can run.

    You all realize that even if Tua isn't THE BEST QB in the league, that doesn't matter, right?

    I'm not saying to get rid of Tua. I just try to talk honestly about him.

    I'm done defending my opinions to anyone. If they don't like what I have to say, they can block me. This has gone so far past the point of reasonableness, no matter what I say, I'm a Tua hating troll (I know that's not your position).

    Basically, 4 or 5 posters have gotten together to follow me around the forum arguing with me, and playing semantics with anything and everything I post. It's ridiculous.
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yup, you're right.

    Tua is perfect, the greatest QB of all time, with zero limitations.
     
  10. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Resnor does have a point, off script guys like Mahomes, Allen, Lamar, and Hurts would do better than Tua in really bad circumstances where the offense is so bad that off script stuff becomes the only thing working. Where he is wrong is when he assumes that it means they do not need as much help from the supporting cast to be successful or that they would still impact the game as much.

    With that crappy supporting cast, they wouldn't be successful and their impact wouldn't be as great. It would be more than Tua could do (primarily by running around) but is still wouldn't be enough and will ultimately lead to disaster with the QB getting hurt.

    In the end, in order to win a championship, every QB needs a quality supporting cast. KC vs Philly demonstrated that last night. Late in the game with it on the line, the Eagles receiver caught the ball and the Chiefs receiver did not. Mahomes' pass was even better. Didn't matter.
     
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  11. Ryan

    Ryan Member

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    I think I can speak for most when I say, we all recognize his limitations (they don’t matter though).

    It appears you simply overstate them. Tua is the best QB we’ve had by far since Marino and I’m enjoying the ride after years of pedestrian play from the QB position.

    Tua’s strengths (getting ball out fast and accurately) tailor this offense that has an atrocious pass protecting OL. As a matter of fact, the Jets owner/GM/HC collectively would probably kill a couple family members for a QB with Tua’s strengths right now. They have a, you guessed it, rocket arm, off script QB but he’s terrible. Weird huh.


    This is all I’ll say on the matter. I won’t be one of the entertainers for you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2023
  12. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    It is not. All of us have admitted it many many times. The issues are:

    1) You start a post comparing Tua to Mahomes, and then extended to the vague "other QBs".
    2) Many of us don't agree with the conclusions you draw from that observation (in this case that Tua needs weapons more than other QBs to be elite). Isn't this a message board for conversation?
    3) You don't actually defend your opinions with any objective information. You state Tua needs blah and when asked why, you simply ignore the question.
     
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  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yes Mahomes Allen Jackson have off script advantages over Tua, hmmm, Tua has in pocket advantages over other qbs..

    See how this works.

    couldnt resist.
     
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  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tua would make the chiefs receivers better because he throws a more accurate, easier to catch football :) and, will get the ball to those inferior receivers quicker so if they do catch it they will have some room to work with

    :)
     
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  15. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, the off script, off balance jump throws from out of nowhere have to be a pain in the *** for receivers.
     
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  16. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Yes it is.
     
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  17. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is saying that. I didn't say that at all. If I had to pick a quarterback out of all the great ones I've ever seen play the game to start a franchise with, it would NOT be Tua. It would be Dan Marino. With that being said, I'm very excited about the future with Tua. He just has to stay healthy.
     
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  18. Tuanon4Life

    Tuanon4Life Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Nov 21, 2023
  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    But that's why Mahomes is so great- the poor guy runs for his life and makes incredible throws at crazy angles. His superpower is pure survival and extending plays in a way nobody else possibly can.

    Tua's superpower, on the other hand, is finding small windows and throwing the ball quickly...often before those windows even appear. It's surreal and nobody else in the league can do it the way he does, not at that level.
     
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  20. Ryan

    Ryan Member

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    He’s doing that thing of putting words in peoples mouths. Why I left this website years ago. I’m not entertaining it this time around though. I’m past the childish stuff. I’m just here to enjoy a pinnacle year (of my lifetime) of Dolphins football with fellow fans. I mean, it finally feels like we can win a playoff game for once and there’s haters here. I can’t be the only one that feels that difference either.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2023
  21. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    He had a couple of throws last night where he stepped up in the pocket, started sprinting forward looking like he's gonna run with it and then just jumped and ripped a fastball at receivers 3 yards away that were dropped.

    It's like, is he gonna run? Should I turn and block? Just stand there? Wait for a pass?

    It's probably very frustrating.
     
  22. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Mahomes also did his fake like he's gonna give up along the sidelines and get an extra 8 yards too. I'm glad Van Ginkel popped him a few weeks ago.

    There has to be a better system of determining whether a QB is going to give himself up along the sidelines, like blowing the whistle before they get close to out of bounds. Mahomes does it all the time.
     
  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I agree. One of those passes he gently floated but the receiver wasn't expecting it. Pretty sure he dropped it. On another play, he threw a rocket and almost knocked the receiver down...that one was dropped.

    And yet, KC should have won that game, despite all the offensive chaos. They had two beautiful deep passes on that final drive that should have been hauled in. People talk all kinds of crap about QBs, even though they have to do a thousand things. Receivers just need to catch the ball...and they couldn't last night. I honestly feel bad for Mahomes.
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Simply put, not complicated, on point.
     
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  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Dude let’s party man

    We’re here and are ready to embrace this team which is unlike any other

    Best collection of talent I’ve ever seen.

    Think we have a real chance
     
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Mahomes has turned into a little *****, one who fakes the severity of an injury and is a flopper and a manic official complainer
     
  27. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The interesting thing is that the skillset for these athletic QBs fades as their bodies can't stand the long term punishment with time while the skillset for the pocket QBs generally increases as they gain more and more knowledge.
     
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  28. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Very true. I love watching the mobile, dual threat quarterbacks. But name one who had a successful 10-year career without a massive drop-off in talent and tons of missed games/injuries along the way.

    Randall Cunningham? Michael Vick? Russell Wilson? There aren't many candidates since very few last- I'd have to look at the stats but I doubt there's any that meet that simple criteria.

    And that's why I'd never draft a player like that. Why hope for 5 solid years when a pure passer could give you triple that?
     
  29. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    That's why Mahomes is a unicorn. He can do both. I think he is affected mentally by the drops and is pressing but when he has a decent cast he is hell to stop. Just ask the Bills about 13 seconds.....

    The challenge is keeping disciplined. I don't care how fast a QB is, he is not faster than Hill and he is not used to taking hits. Also, he has to get back up and throw the ball. He can't get rocked them come out of the game for a few reps like every other player carrying the ball can. So the #1 objective is and always will be to get the ball to your play makers. Running is secondary.
     
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  30. Ryan

    Ryan Member

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    Thank you DJ. I’ve always appreciated you on this forum. Let’s PARTY!!!
     
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  31. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    The off script ad lib guys: Mahomes, Jackson, Allen… all have traits Tua does not possess.

    all true. However, this offense is predicated on Tua’s strengths, which are anticipation, pre snap reading a defense, and accurate ball placement with pinpoint timing.
    A QB, even a great one, who relies on off platforms scrambling and extending plays is not ideal for the system Mike McDaniel has implemented.
    Of the pocket guys, even the pocket hybrids like goff, lawrence, and joe brr? Id argue the best one for this offense is… Tua.
     
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  32. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    I wonder if he would still be a unicorn if he didn’t come into the league with Andy Reid as his head coach. Reid managed to transform Vick into a more traditional QB which I didn’t think was possible.

    Or maybe Mahomes is just that good that he would have been great anywhere.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's just my response now when people want to argue any criticism I make. That comment was specifically because of a phrase he used.
     
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  34. Ryan

    Ryan Member

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    Reality: all I said was “Tua is the best QB we’ve had by far since Marino”. This is a fact. Only a hater would then say what other guy said. Again, not surprised. Throwing words in people mouth, the usual. Imagine hating Tua so bad you get triggered over my comment. Lmao Wow.

    I’m done here. I’ve said too much.

    General Disclaimer: Again, more power to those still entertaining this guy.
     
  35. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Instead, why don't you actually back up your criticisms with real, supported arguments? Give it a try.
     
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  36. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    This string has some good content with the discussions of the QBs and such. And then it has some personal attacks. If comments to posters continue in the way previously and you all can’t be civil, I’m going to close it.
     
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  37. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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  38. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of narratives, cue Queen.

    Another one bites the dust
    Another one bites the dust
    And another one gone, and another one gone
    Another one bites the dust (yeah)
     
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  39. Tuanon4Life

    Tuanon4Life Well-Known Member

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    Jimminy Cricket has now left the building.
     
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  40. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    There's no question the offense is more explosive with Hill in the lineup. But, as evidenced when Hill was out for that touchdown drive on Sunday, it just seemed like the offense ran more smooth and Tua looked extremely comfortable.
     
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