My opinion we dont have a bigtime coach or Qb

First of all, you are totally entitled to your opinion. Only time will tell, but, IMO, you are massively under estimating Tua's talent. His elite traits are his accuracy, anticipation, and quickness. IMO, those make up for his lack of pure arm strength on 95% of throws. He would be no less accurate, or throw with less anticipation, or be slower to release the ball with weapons that are not elite. The only difference is that receivers that are not elite will do less with the ball after they catch it or not catch it at all.

It is exactly the same with Mahomes.

Just two games ago, you watched Miami take away Kelce and leave Mahomes with his mediocre receivers. He was limited to 185 yards passing.

People have been talking about Mahomes' receivers all season. He has the worst yards per game and passer rating in his career. He has the lowest TD % and highest INT % in his career. I understand they are winning, but they are 11th in points scored and 2nd in points allowed. They are scoring 23.1 points per game. That is the lowest for the Chiefs since 2014 and the second lowest in the 11 seasons that Reid has been the HC of the Chiefs.

 

I think it is clear that he does not value the skills that Tua is elite in as much as he values the skills that Mahomes is elite in.

 

All he needs to do is say that he thinks scrambling ability and a rocket arm are what makes a QB elite...regardless of the results. Then we can all move on. I mean, I disagree, but if that's what he thinks.

 

Stop being obtuse. Results I.e. if he lost Kelce would his stats go down. Yes probably. However, MAHOMES would still be the same QB physically, and he would still be able to go off script and scramble, and his arm would still be his arm and he would be throwing with the same velocity, and he would still have the agility to make the circus throws he does.

Those are all separate from would his stats go down.

Again though, all that is going on is that you have formed a belief about my stance, regardless of how many times I tell you you're wrong, and everything I post your read through your made-up filter and try to find some asinine thing to argue with me about.

 

I think it's clear that your reading comprehension is lacking.

If Tua suddenly was throwing to Hartline/Bess, his numbers would go down. Just like Mahomes numbers would go down without Kelce.

But you believe that Tua would still have the same size impact for the Dolphins in this scenario as Mahomes would for the Chiefs?

I'm not even trying to say that means Mahomes is better. That's not what I'm saying, and it isn't what I believe. However, I'm saying that I think Tua needs weapons, more than other QBs, to be elite. I've said repeatedly that when given weapons Tua will do more with them than other QBs. I don't get how this is me slighting Tua, just because I'm honest about him. It's ****ing weird.

 

Wow. Everything you said about Mahomes's strengths can be applied to Tua's.

He still would be getting the ball out before the D could get there even with bad blocking. He still would be putting the ball exactly where it should be at depth while getting the ball out. He would still be manipulating the D with his eyes and throwing no look passes. He would still have absurdly precise ball handling and be able spin out of a ball fake and put the ball accurately on a slant in two seconds.

Those are all separate from would his stats go down.


See?

You just value Mahomes's strengths more than Tua's. But, should you? Ask yourself why.

 

Obtuse? I think you're using that word wrong. You wrote what you wrote. If you didn't mean what you wrote, (I quoted you verbatim), then you wouldn't have followed up with this post. Again, you're making no sense. If Mahomes' stats go down then the results, like you wrote, wouldn't be the same, ergo: he wouldn't be elite. Mahomes is elite BECAUSE of his results, not because he can throw the ball far. Sure his arm and scrambling ability allow him to do things others can't when things break down, even then his RESULTS are pretty elite. Take away Kelce, as we've seen with Tyreek leaving, and his results most likely get worse, but that's OK with you because he can throw the ball hard.

In essence, you're agreeing with everyone else in that you think a QB will play better with better players around them, but you're still only holding Tua to a different standard. You think it's OK for Mahomes' results to get worse without playmakers, but you think Tua's results are only good because of his playmakers. Again, you're not being logical or rational.

My belief on your stance isn't something I've pulled out of thin air. You're directly responsible for me believing what I do.

 

Wait...in one sentence you say that you don't think Mahomes is better, but in the very next you say that Tua needs more help than Mahomes to play well. I can't keep up man.

 

And I disagree with you. I said you were entitled to your opinion.

You explicitly mentioned Mahome's bigger arm and running ability as reasons he wouldn't be affected as much as Tua (i.e. you favor those skills).

 

And Tua would still have his accuracy, anticipation, ability to look off defenders, and crazy fast release. He would be the same QB physically.

 

And which other QBs?

Mahomes? Probably agree.
Burrow? Probably agree.
Allen? No
Hurts? No
Lamar? No
Lawrence? No
Purdy? No

Basically, IMO, Tua is the #3 QB in the league and only the guys above him need less help.

 

It's because your "reading comprehension" is lacking! Not just yours, but mine, FinFaninBuffalo's, dj's lol. Hilarious. Not being able to comprehend self-contradictory arguments is evidence of "lack of reading comprehension".

 

Ouch! You left out the QB they all wanted: Justin "great arm almighty" Herbert!

 

If he were able to make a consistent logical argument regarding Mahomes vs Tua, I'd probably agree with him. IMO, Mahomes is a better QB but it is not by a huge margin. He goes sideways when trying to explain himself. He should have just stuck with the idea of preferring the big arm and off script plays. Mahomes has an advantage over Tua in the off script stuff.

But then he begins to generalize. On one hand, he throws out the "you don't think Mahomes would be less affected?" challenge. Later it is "I think Tua needs weapons, more than other QBs, to be elite". Now it is QBs, PLURAL. Now I'm forced to disagree or get clarification.

 

Not sure how I missed that.....

 

Yeah.. it's worth going back to arguments he made in the past to get the proper "context". Remember he was high on Tua until last year where Tua got injured? Look at what he said back then, and you can start to see what he really thinks here.
https://thephins.com/threads/tua-is-not-the-problem.96818/page-76#post-3497618

It's always been "other QBs" plural. Yes, resnor thinks Tua does better than an average QB would with the weapons he has, but otherwise he's just a Ryan Fitzpatrick type QB, i.e., compared to many other QBs Tua is nothing special without Hill and Waddle and McDaniel. That sentiment has actually been quite consistent if you ignore the false statements he makes about his own past statements.

 

Which is why I replied that he values the skills that Mahomes is elite in more than the skills that Tua is elite in.... of course, he immediately disagreed with me.... LOL.

He clearly doesn't think Tua's accuracy, anticipation, release, touch, ball handling, and eye manipulation are anything special. For him it is a big arm and the ability to scramble around. He fails to understand that three recent first ballot HOF QBs (Manning, Brees, and Brady) didn't have special off script abilities either.

 

I'll reply to the bold again until I figure out another way.

You: Mahomes would still physically be the same player. He'd make the same runs, do the same crazy throws, throw with velocity, etc.

These are all subliminal digs at Tua. Tua doesn't run, he doesn't make crazy behind-the-back throws off of one leg while saluting Taylor Swift. Oh... and I like the "throw with velocity" bit because that's also one of your knocks on Tua. He doesn't have a futuristic laser rocket arm. Yet he does have intelligence, can read a defense, and has pin-point accuracy, which is what a ton of "rocket-armed" QBs that bust are seemingly missing.

You: Would the results/stats be the same? Who cares.

Who cares? I guess fans of the team care because KC would not win as many games. What are you talking about here? Stats? WTF. Stats matter. The score of a game? That's a "stat." You're using "who cares" in regards to Mahomes while scrutinizing every possible scenario with Tua. For Christ sake, you've got the guy under a microscope. But who cares with Mahomes? Ok dude.

You: to prove he's elite

Mahomes has struggled whenever he hasn't had Travis Kelce. See week one against Detroit. Or are you going to say Detroit is an elite team with an elite defense? Or was it just week one and KC offense wasn't ready? You bring up Bess and Brian Hartline in some imaginative world where Tua is throwing to them which is again...Pointless and stupid because that's not the situation and it may or may not ever be like that. Actually, it was like that...Tua was throwing to Devante Parker if he was healthy, Lynn Bowden, Jakeem Grant, and Mack Hollins! It doesn't get any worse than that! Oh and he was playing under Flores who was being blindly led by "Co-offensive coordinators) and yet Tua still managed to keep his head above water despite those circumstances.

Proving he's elite? By what? Not having a solid wide receiver to throw to? Am I reading that wrong? Every great Quarterback has had at least one badass receiver to throw to going back as far as I can remember!!!! MY god what a stupid determination to make! "Oh he isn't elite until he throws to bums off the practice squad waiver wire. Dude, you are never going to be satisfied it seems. Everyone is arguing on here with you for the same reason! You are too dug in to see it. You contradict everything your write within a few sentences. You should probably just make up your mind and stick with it. I mean, I respect not pigeon-holing yourself with one take over and over again, but at this point you're just trying to cover yourself from all angles with vague answers, and wild *** made up scenarios!

You: I just wish people would stop taking everything I say as some sort of underhanded passive aggressive dig on Tua.

Underhand dig? That is EXACTLY what you are doing in the first sentence about how you speculate Mahomes would look throwing to practice squad receivers while being minus a Travis Kelce. You're dealing in absolutes and what ifs...Not what is. The only thing that matters is NOW. Anything you're going to do, you do it now. It's comedy gold to see you stress these pointless points over and over again while acting like you're this big-time supporter of the team. You simply don't want to be wrong and I imagine you have this problem in your personal life as well based on this year-long tirade you've been on.

You: I don't hate Tua.

You clearly dislike the guy for some reason that has yet to be clearly explained by you. It's maddening! I've tried to debate this politely with you and I will continue my best to do so, but I honestly don't know what the heck you're even talking about at this point. I think it's mainly the "what ifs" and made-up circumstances/scenarios (that may or may not ever exist) that you keep pushing as to why you're "not sold" on Tua. You champion these scenarios as facts like you have some sort of crystal ball in front of you and it's a bit disturbing that you've gone to this length to prove a point.

 

“ if Tua was throwing to Hartline/Bess, he wouldn't have these crazy stats, which is pretty much what everyone is pointing to, to prove he's elite”

No we’re not using stats to prove he is elite, we’re watching a Qb do things within his skillset that have never been done at this level.

No Qb would lead the nfl in passer rating and yards with hartline and Bess..

You are really missing a fundamental part of this player and disagreement

Yes Mahomes can make plays off script..

Could Brady, manning, Marino?

 

Welcome to the list of posters who have "reading comprehension" issues.

 

Seems utterly bizarre that he focuses on things that the entire league is trying to avoid..... making off script plays throwing to crappy receivers......

 

Marino could and did.

 

Here's two for the pro Herbert group.

 

Hey bud I think you’ve said everything that needs to be said, very eloquently and absolutely accurate, to the few here who have taken delight in the attention given to them for the inability to see what this Qb is doing.

I for one, after what you said, feel no more need to partake in this thread and will never come back to it.

Let’s just pop over to the Tua thread all of us and talk and breakdown our Qb and leave these dudes to themselves talking about this thread title.

 

And that's exactly the way he wants it.

 

Mahomes doesn’t need good players around him to win, right?

I bet Tyreek makes that catch and they win tonight. Lol

 

You have to admit that the drop couldn’t have come at a better time to show that all QB’s do, in fact, need good players around them to win. Lol

 

Tua vs eagles 23-32 216 yds 1 td 1 int 87.5 rate
Mahomes vs eagles 24-43 177 yds 2 td 1 int 71.6 rate

Tua vs chiefs 21-34 193 yds 1 td 0 int 87 rate
Hurts vs chiefs 14-22 150 yds 0 td 1 int 64.6 rate

 

***crickets***

 

He's probably not wrong.....

 

So you believe that if he was throwing to Hartline/Bess his stats would be the same as he's producing this season, or the offense would be functioning just as good?

GTFO.

YES, his elite traits would still be present.

But they wouldn't impact the game like Mahomes.

Noticed that you refused to answer my question, just shot more strawmen.

 

What's your point? Is the only difference here the QBs?

 

No and neither would any other QB.

Why not?

 

The point is there are a group of posters that want to exclusively blame Tua for off games by the offense and completely absolve other QBs of the same....................

 

You should ask yourself that same question.

 

We have a winner! lol