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My opinion we dont have a bigtime coach or Qb

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Nov 5, 2023.

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  1. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    His statements were absolute (i.e. all I've ever said or I've never said). They are easily proven false and he repeats them after they have been proven false. I'm not commenting on whether his view changed on the subject. Changing your views is good, especially if you are changing from an incorrect opinion to a correct opinion, LOL.

    If he had said, I used to believe he was at best a slight above average QB but now I believe he is at worst a slightly above average QB, he wouldn't get challenged. Hell, he could even say that he keeps changing his mind.
     
  2. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Correct.

    Resnor goes further and says things like "the earth is not 3 dimensional!!!!" and when challenged about his views regarding whether the earth is round claims that he never denied that..... he was misunderstood and we are taking an all or nothing approach..... somehow the earth can be round and not 3 dimensional at the same time or it used to be flat or something. It is never quite clear..
     
  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I "think" he believes the opposite- expected a bust (due to injury) and didn't see much more than average talent. Now he's backtracking some due to performance, but still waiting to see if he remains injury-free AND delivers in clutch games (like the playoffs).

    I don't think he can, there's too much animosity built up for a quarterback he doesn't love.
     
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Why is it that because you guys don't understand my point, that I should just stop? I'm taking SPECIFICALLY about what everyone says Tua is elite at. Decision making and anticipation.. so, you tell me, if he didn't have weapons like Hill and Waddle, and he had average receivers, would the things Tua is elite at really make much of a difference?

    Again, NONE OF WHAT I'M SAYING should ever be construed as me saying we should nice on from Tua, or anything like that. It's a discussion. I'm taking about potentialities. No matter how happy I may be with Tua, I still at this point don't trust the FO to keep a complete team around Tua.

    Honestly you guys think that I think things that I don't think.
     
  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Attacking the poster.
     
  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    No, I didn't think he would be a bust. I compared him to Ted Ginn. Dude wasn't deserving of being #9 overall, due to his deficiencies, despite his elite speed. Ginn had a really nice career, better than many many receivers.

    I didn't think he was worth giving up everything we gave up, given the crazy injury. People immediately jumped all over me, and the argument has gone round and round for four years.
     
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  7. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    "Opportunities to come clean."

    It's this attitude that I'm actively lying and misrepresenting that pisses me off. I'm not. You guys are being intentionally obtuse and creating things that I'm not trying to say.
     
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Also, if I hated Tua and wanted him gone, I'd buy myself and my son his jersey, because every players jersey I buy, they're gone the next season.
     
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  9. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    To the bolded first part,
    If you took away Travis Kelce would Mahomes still be considered the best quarterback in the game? If you took away all terrain/traction tires on a truck and replaced them with balding spares would the truck still perform at an elite level? C'mon man! This should apply to any quarterback in the game! Of course Tua is going to have a harder time completing passes to average wide receivers.

    Moving on,
    Is it that you don't trust the front office? Or that you don't believe in Tua? You're clearly saying you don't trust the front office in that sentence. The front office has very little to do with Tua and his individual abilities. He can only work with what they give him. You act like Waddle and Hill are spoiling Tua. As if he doesn't deserve them. We drafted Waddle..That was our choice! We traded for Tyreek Hill, also our choice. It's as if you're complaining about that!!!!!

    This isn't about being wrong or right, but I think you should move on from this.
     
  10. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    We saw our first glimpse of Tua without Hill yesterday, and it was close to perfect.

    Tua without Hill (rest of 1st half after Hill went out): 8 out of 8 for 98 yards and 1 TD = 157.3 rating.

    Tua has already shown he can play at a high level without Waddle. So all you have left now is for both of them to be out, which obviously was the case in 2020, but Tua has vastly improved as a QB since then so I don't think you can use that. The only other argument would be sample size, and that's a convenient excuse as you might wait 5+ years to see that lol. But given the data we have thus far, Tua does just fine without Waddle or Hill. Not much of a leap to think he can still perform well without both, though obviously not as good as with them.
     
  11. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    No QB is unaffected by the weapons he has. I posted Mahomes' passer rating for this year and the stats for his receivers this year as an example. You completely ignored it.
     
  12. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    It's crazy how much more composed and smooth Tua was on that drive without Hill than when Hill was on the field yesterday.

    It's almost like the game slows down for him when Hill isn't out there.
     
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  13. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever speculated about ways that Tua could be even better? Have you ever speculated that behind a top flight OL or with a top tier TE, he'd have even better stats? Ever?
     
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  14. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    You've completely jumped the shark man.

    We've all been wrong. It's OK to be wrong. People who get paid to evaluate players are mostly wrong. It's easy to see skill, but it's not easy to see intangibles and intangibles matter.

    But, we all haven't written one thing, claimed we never wrote it, had it proven that we did in fact write it, and then still claim we never wrote it. And that's what you're doing. That's on you dude. You can say that we are misinterpreting what you wrote, but that's just not the truth. I've never had any animosity towards you, and I don't think you're a troll, but you are irrational about this.

    You can say you've changed your mind about Tua. You can say you still think Tua is at best average. That's all fine. Hell, you can say you think Tua sucks. You'll get some disagreements, but as long as you can give some facts to support your opinions no one can do anything but disagree with you. For example, if you think a QB MUST have a cannon for an arm to be elite, so be it. I'm sure there are GM's that think that, too. If that's what you think, OK. If you think Tua is injury prone, fine, that's you're opinion. At least there are things you can point out that show why you believe what you do. But what you're doing now is just dishonest.
     
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  15. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    That's just scary to think about. Behind either a top flight OL or top tier TE this offense is unstoppable even against good defenses. I also think with a top tier LB our defense is elite. Those should be the 3 main objectives this offseason: OL, TE and LB.

    And if I had to choose I would really want to hit on a top tier LB. Just imagine if we had Parsons on this team. Damn. We are SB contenders. But hopefully Grier attempts to improve all 3 and with luck hits on a great TE or LB while improving the OL.
     
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  16. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I'll never understand the what if games that get played. They are only played with Tua. Every QB is affected by their supporting cast. I cannot stand the comments like "Mahomes could play with UPS drivers....". His receivers are not playing well this season. The result? Mahomes' numbers are down. The Dolphins took away Kelce. The result? Mahomes looked lost. He is the best QB in the game and is not immune to his supporting cast not playing well. Why the hell are people discussing it?
     
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  17. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I made a similar post in The Club about that drive. I asked if it was just me or did Tua seem to play better when Hill wasn't on the field. I wrote, "Is he looking for Hill too much and in turn missing on some other throws that are there?"

    There are some stats out there that show Tua actually plays better when Hill isn't on the field. Maybe he feels pressure to get it to him because when he does, usually great things happen, but forcing it to Hill can also be detrimental. Especially when other WR's may be wide open or in a better position to catch the ball.
     
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  18. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Rhetorical question? Obviously to hold onto a point of view not supported by the evidence. It's like all those "almost interceptions" we heard Tua throwing last year.
     
  19. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Exactly. And it's not like we would need some All Pro line, either. Tua is good enough that he makes a very average (our oline when healthy is average) look very good. Granted, I DO think when we have our starting oline in there it really opens up the running game, which in turn opens up the passing game, but with average pass blocking Tua's processing speed and quick release make it seem above average.
     
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  20. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but has your opinion of Tua changed since then? Let's get people to stop jumping all over you by giving your exact opinion on Tua. I'll even write most of it for you-

    Hi I'm Resnor. I think Tua is a <bad, okay, good, really good, great> quarterback and I currently <root for him, root against him, wish we'd trade him, hope he gets hit by a bus>. Previously, I didn't think he was worth what we gave up to draft him, and today I <feel the same way, have changed my opinion, am still not sure about him>. I do think the elite weapons around him are a big help and I wonder if he'd be having as good of a career without them. I also worry about his injury history, specifically the concussions.

    Additionally, I apologize if any of my previous statements were unclear. It was never my intention to participate in a four year argument and I feel like my words have been twisted unfairly. Please stop quoting me and telling me what my opinion is. I currently believe that Tua is a/an <above average quarterback, average quarterback, below average quarterback> and I think he will have a <horrible, lousy, okay, good, great, amazing> career.
     
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  21. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the OL is the prime issue every time the O struggles. There were plays against the Raiders where we only put 2 or 3 receivers in the route and the Raiders still got pressure with the front 4. That is inexcusable. Tua should be able to stand back for 3 or 4 seconds in that situation. No way does a defense cover Hill and Waddle for that long.

    We will not be a regular SB contender until that gets fixed. We're close and the OL can still put it some top performances but a consistent OL will dramatically improve our chances. We still structure the offense to cover for the OL (quick throws, TEs and FB focusing on blocking, occasional max protect, etc)
     
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  22. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    That's the new Allen fan go to stat. PFF's "Turnover-worthy" stat. Allen, by far, has more turnovers over the past 5+ seasons than anyone, but if you look at the "Turnover-worthy" stat it's much closer. lol....PFF even admits that it's a subjective stat where a guy just looks at plays and decides whether or not a turnover "could" have happened and then grades it.
     
  23. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I think people radically underestimate the impact of the OL in the passing game because it can be mitigated against with quick throws and keeping in more blockers. But, those come at a cost. It limits the time that the QB has to make a decision. It limits the routes that can be run (longer developing routes are off the table). Fewer receivers to cover. Limits your personnel choices (need to keep TEs and/or FB on the field).

    Think of the running game. If your all pro RB keeps getting hit behind the LOS, nobody blames him for the lack of production in the running game. I'd rather have an average RB running throw giant holes than an all pro getting hit behind the LOS every play.
     
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  24. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I think it depends a lot on the QB. SBs have been won with good offenses having a poor OL so you can definitely do it — just think of Russell Wilson in 2013 having a top 10 offense with an abysmal OL. Either highly mobile QBs or those with extremely fast releases I would think can overcome poor OL the best.

    Regarding Tua it's an interesting question. Would an elite TE with average-ish OL be sufficient to make this offense nearly unstoppable? I think so, but we don't know. I do agree a great OL would do it, but how a poor OL affects a QB will greatly depend on the QB.
     
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  25. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    SO Cal
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You know what’s not talked about as special and that is how a Qb is so fast at his process and release that he is singlehandidly turning a poor Oline into a pretty good one in theory.

    But the skills he demonstrates to get rid of the ball on time and on point faster than anyone in the game which completely helps the unit in front of him which no one seems to be giving him enough credit
     
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  27. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Look up about 6-7 posts good buddy. lol...I've been preaching this all season.
     
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  28. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    We've always partially disagreed on QBs. Wilson (actually the offensive philosophy) made that OL look far worse than it was because he held onto the ball so long. He was regularly among the slowest in the league to release. They had the 26th ranked passing offense and 4th ranked rushing offense in yards and combined that with the league's best defense in yards and scoring.

    Wilson took a ridiculous number of sacks BUT he did not turn the ball over and made big plays. They traded sacks for big plays because they could trust their defense. They gave up 14.4 points per game.

    Basically, you have to have an OL good enough to run YOUR offense. The better they are at it, the better it is for the team. If you can force defenses to have to blitz and to commit extra bodies to stop the run, you are going to be tough to beat.

    IMO, we will not be a dominant team until we can (a) force teams to blitz us to get pressure and (b) run the ball even when the other team knows we are going to run it. We don't do either of those consistently yet.
     
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  29. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    He is masking their faults not turning them into a pretty good OL. The OL is absolutely limiting this offense.
     
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  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Of course you have.

    I’ve been preaching this narrative as in “ Tua is the fastest Qb in the game”

    And you know I don’t mean running

    And that the national narrative is backwards.

    Tua exploits his weapons, any weapon that he is given he will make them the best version of themselves

    Being able to scramble and run does not do that for weapons, speed of process, anticipation and hyper accuracy will help the leads talented

    3rd narrative that I preach all year is that it takes much more talent at the Qb position to exploit the strengths of hi level weapons.

    Measuring speed while in motion relative to accuracy of target will prove my theory
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
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  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    True, he is making them look better than they are but the injuries have taken their toll

    Cotton was a mitigated disaster
     
  32. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Jesus, God, Mary and Joseph, this thread has been HIJACKED!!!!

    Let it go for Christ’s sake. You all are saying the same thing over and over and over and over. It’s a flipping carousel ride. I keep seeing the same wooden horses again and again and again.

    This is part of the CRAP Inwas talking about. Enough already
     
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  33. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. They were much better at the beginning of the year. Need to get Hunt and Jones (since Wynn is done, right?) back out there.
     
  34. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the graphic guy may have been hitting the sauce. There's another meme going around where the graphic says Tua threw 30 TDs in the red zone this year.
     
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  35. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    LOL. You think a thread titled "My opinion, we don't have a big time coach or QB" was hijacked???? :sidelol:

    Good, it should have been hijacked and taken to "STFUville".
     
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  36. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    It was 50 actually :thumbup:
     
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  37. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    To be fair we are rolling out guards 4 and 5 right now, not many teams can overcome that. You could see by yesterday's gameplan that McDaniel didn't trust them to hold up, we probably threw the same amount of passes behind or at the line of scrimmage yesterday than we have all season.
     
  38. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I agree. If we don't have at least one of them for the Jets, we are going to have to be creative and our defense is going to have to pitch a near shutout.
     
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  39. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So yeah without Kelce, Mahomes would still physically be the same player. He'd make the same runs, do the same crazy throws, throw with velocity, etc. Would the results/stats be the same? Who cares. I didn't say they would be. I wasn't talking about results. So Mahomes would still be able to impact the game to a massive degree because he personally is still making crazy plays.

    To contrast, I believe that Tua cannot impact a game to the same degree as a Mahomes, if he doesn't have great weapons. His elite traits need another player to really be maximized. But, or another way, if Tua was throwing to Hartline/Bess, he wouldn't have these crazy stats, which is pretty much what everyone is pointing to, to prove he's elite (I'm not saying here that he isn't). Know what I'm saying?

    Look, I'm not trying to say anything bad about Tua. If we keep him supplied with talent, Tua is going to produce. I don't think that a player like say, Jay Fielder, would be putting up Tua's numbers if he was in this offense. So, yes, my concern is the FO (and big contacts like I mentioned in a thread a few days ago).

    I just wish people would stop taking everything I say as some sort of underhanded passive aggressive dig on Tua. I've never advocated for dumping Tua, never. The only thing I said regarding that, was that he needed to miss fewer than 3-5 games this season.

    I don't hate Tua.
     
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  40. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Dude, this thread makes no sense.

    You wrote, "I wasn't talking about results. So Mahomes would still be able to impact the game to a massive degree because he personally is still making crazy plays."

    You're not talking about results?

    Huh?

    Maybe we're all just speaking a different language than you. You're saying that Mahomes would still play like he's playing now, but the results wouldn't be the same and that proves he doesn't need a good supporting cast? Then that's not playing how he's playing now. I mean, if he runs around and throws the ball hard and far, but it's an incompletion or an INT (different results than now) then how does that mean he's a good QB?
     
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