1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Mt. Rushmore of Baseball

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by finyank13, Apr 14, 2015.

  1. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    The whole BALCO scandal where he was linked to them with a former trainer. There was proof he used them even though he claims he never "knowingly" took them in court.
     
  2. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

    6,829
    1,449
    113
    Mar 23, 2008
    West Palm Beach
    Oh yeah, duh. Forgot about that
     
    finyank13 likes this.
  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Those were all guys I'd be happy to pay $$ to see
     
    Boik14 likes this.
  4. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

    15,112
    7,311
    113
    Aug 15, 2010
    Davie
    Bonds, Mays, Aaron, and...I guess Clemens.


    Each of these guys probably took PEDs at least one point in their careers. Who cares.
     
    finyank13 likes this.
  5. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    And Gaylord Perry is in the HOF even though he admits to the spitball through his career and wrote about it.

    It's all a joke. I like that Rose and Bonds won't get in. The best players of their generation. There is more notoriety outside of the hall.
     
  6. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

    72,295
    32,481
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    I will never recognize a PED player in that manner. Ever. What is the whole idea of any sport for a player? Aside from the business aspect its to compete vs others under the same rules to create a level playing field. Also regarding the WAR stat, its affected by games played so of course Bonds would have more WAR then a player who missed 20% of his career due to injury/games missed. Like I said though, Ill never recognize Bonds for any of those accomplishments.

    I wouldnt take claims by Canseco at face value. Id need more. I would however love to know what other players were never named. Ive seen the mitchell report as well as some other documents.

    I cant sit here and say that Arod or Bonds wouldnt have had the same career with or without Steroids but you cant say that their careers would have been the same either. For me its a competition issue more then its an accomplishments issue. Ill simply never recognize it. If someone asks me who teh home run leader is, to me its still Hank Aaron. Its insanely stupid for baseball to recognize it as Bonds because youre legitimizing the accomplishments of a player who altered the idea of a level playing field.
    Its personal opinion. Koufax had a ridiculously great career, it was just short. I could put any one of Maddux, Pedro, Seaver etc on that list.
    I agree Perry being in the hall is a joke. If a sport doesnt have purity then it will sooner or later fail. People will question its legitimacy. You have to have that hence my reasoning for never recognizing accomplishments by players like Bonds or Clemens etc. I just dont believe in supporting a player who needs to cheat when the whole reason the game exists is for competition on a level playing field.
     
  7. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

    19,861
    5,792
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Melbourne, Fl
    Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth.
     
  8. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    From 1989 to 1999, the period I used in the previous post, Griffey played in 1535 games while Bonds played in 1593 games. I doubt a 58 game difference would amount to the difference in WAR.

    Why wouldn't you take claims by Canseco at face value? The guy is a scumbag but so far everyone thing he said in regards to steroids and who took them turned out to be true.

    I agree I can't say Arod or Bonds' careers would have been the same or different, that's part of my point on the PED issue.

    I do find it curious that you consider Hank Aaron the home run leader when he's known to have taken greenies back in the day, which are now outlawed in the MLB and players will get suspended for taking them. So Aaron wasn't exactly playing on an even level playing field either. Again its the slippery slope argument.
     
  9. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

    36,936
    10,264
    0
    Mar 25, 2008
    Thee...Ohio State University
    I think its is kind of obvious Griffey never juiced, as a guy with above average knowledge on steriods and possibly used in the past....I would lay pretty heavy odds JR never was on the sauce.
     
  10. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

    10,191
    4,187
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Bradenton,FL

    You can assume Bonds was a better baseball player then Griffey. But I think over the course of the first 10 years of their career. Griffey was better. Bonds had seasons in those ten, especially the last couple that was better then Griffey. He looked like he was and was going to continue to be better then Griffey. But you have no clue how Bonds career would of ended without Roids. Plain and simple.

    Bonds was a HOF before the roids no doubt. But to put him on a fake Mt. Rushmore of baseball is a joke. Even if you don't put Griffey, putting Bonds is a disgrace.
     
  11. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    Why is it a joke? FinYank said PEDs don't matter in this discussion and Bonds is one of the best players in the history of the game whether he was a user or not.

    Here's the stat break down between Bonds and Griffney from 1989 to 1999:

    Bonds:
    1593 games
    6825 PA
    5474 AB
    1187 runs
    1622 hits
    333 2B
    48 3B
    380 HR
    1134 RBI
    375 SB
    1239 BB
    840 K
    .296 BA
    .426 OBP
    .583 SLG
    1.009 OPS
    174 OPS+

    Griffey:
    1535 games
    6688 PA
    5832 AB
    1063 runs
    1742 hits
    320 2B
    30 3B
    398 HR
    1152 RBI
    167 SB
    747 BB
    984 K
    .299 BA
    .380 OBP
    .569 SLG
    .948 OPS
    149 OPS+

    Numbers are pretty similar, obvious Bonds had the 58 more games advantage but what I find incredibly interesting is Bonds had a higher SLG % than Griffey which goes against the narrative that Bonds wasn't a power hitter before he juiced.

    Also while I don't think Griffey used PEDs, how do we know he didn't? We don't, we're just assuming.
     
    Higgi and finyank13 like this.
  12. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

    10,191
    4,187
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Bradenton,FL

    While Griffey was being one of the best defensive players of all time in his first 10 years. Bonds was a good left fielder. But defensively, there was a big gap. And the assuming argument is bad. Because we don't have to assume with Bonds, we know he did. and there is 0 pointing toward Griffey using them. So maybe you can think that way, but majority of people will use logic in this case.

    Also, if we are taking PEDs out of the equation. Might have to put Sosa and Big Mac in there. They single handily brought baseball back.

    Without any knowledge of PEDs, obviously Bonds would be in there.
     
    Boik14 and finyank13 like this.
  13. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    I think people forget just how good Bonds was at defense in LF too. Bonds' all time dWAR of 6.7 was higher than Griffey's of 1.3. I know people will point to Griffey's decline due to injuries so Griffey's Seattle dWAR was 8.5 while Bonds' was 12.2 during Griffey's Seattle days. Again, stating the obvious CF is harder than LF. But the gap isn't as big as you think. People just remember all the great plays Griffey made in CF being high lighted all the time while no one can remember a single great play Bonds made, which doesn't mean he wasn't a good defender just wasn't as flashy.

    The assuming argument isn't bad, it's true. The assuming is what's keeping guys like Bagwell and Piazza out of the HOF. How is that fair? There's never been any smoking gun with those guys except pimples on Piazza's back. Sure there's no hard evidence to suggest Griffey did PEDs but we don't know. That's why I don't care if someone used them or not before there was testing for them. I'm not about to play Moral Police with this stuff. Especially when players might not have been doing steroids but could have been popping greenies (which are now against the rules and are considered PEDs).

    Of course you can bring Sosa and Big Mac into the discussion but I don't think either of them were better players than Bonds or Griffey so it would kind of be a moot point for the same reason we're not talking about Cal Ripken or Derek Jeter. They weren't/aren't in discussion of being a top 4 best living baseball player.
     
  14. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

    10,191
    4,187
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Bradenton,FL

    I don't forget. I think some are forgetting how great Griffey was defensively. I don't have to look at stats. Griffeys first step was amazing and he went back on the ball better then anyone. With him playing shallow he basically took away the entire field. His flash plays were just that, flash. What made him great defensively, was everything else. Jim Edmonds had tons of flash plays too, but his first step was not great.

    Griff was a magician defensively. Not just very good.
     
    Boik14 likes this.
  15. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

    11,112
    4,124
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    ^Jim Edmonds was a lot of fun to watch... Completely forgot he existed lol
     
  16. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Ken Griffey broke down because of his lack of work ethic. He was naturally gifted, but didn't give a sh** outside of the diamond.

    So when his physical talents went away, he declined big time. As we all know efforts off the field matter. It's one thing to excuse Griffey for declining even if he worked his tail off. It's another when he declined because he didn't want to work his tail off. Bonds belongs on the fake Rushmore because he is the home run king. His hand and eye coordination was out of this world. During his run, he'd get maybe 1 or 2 pitches to hit the whole game, and he'd hit it out. To hit as many home runs per plate appearances as he did, while being walked as much as he was, is amazing. Not many people get walked with the bases loaded. Barry Bonds. In 1998 before people agree he probably started juicing.
     
  17. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

    36,936
    10,264
    0
    Mar 25, 2008
    Thee...Ohio State University
    With all these newfound points I have modified my Mt Rushmore list..

    Bonds
    McGwire
    Sosa
    Clemens
     
    finyank13 and Ray Finkle like this.
  18. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

    72,295
    32,481
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    That's a great mt Rushmore if you're looking for disgraces to the game. You can add spots for Joe Jackson and Pete Rose while you're at it.
     
  19. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

    36,936
    10,264
    0
    Mar 25, 2008
    Thee...Ohio State University
    Pete's off the field issues rank low in my book by comparison to the crap we've seen the past 15 years. (Steroids, beating your wife, beating a 4 yr old, killing someone while driving drunk, killing someone because you think you are a gangster etc)

    If he would've thrown games to win money maybe we can talk.

    In short? Leave Pete the hell alone.
     
    Aqua4Ever04 likes this.

Share This Page