Mt. Rushmore of Baseball

chipper jones chipper jones chipper jones chipper jones fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck the yankees

"Ray Finkle wrote:

No question CF is a tougher position than LF but Bonds when he was younger was a pretty good LFer himself. Health is important when you factor this stuff in. I do think Bonds is actually underrated as a player because of the PED stuff. People forget just how good he was before his "PED years". If I have time maybe I will look at their numbers closer.

Bonds was a 20 hr 50 steal guy before the PED stuff. I just wont dismiss the PED stuff. i wouldnt put Peyton Manning in the HOF if he got caught juicing why would I put Barry Bonds on a baseball Mount Rushmore?

Why are we so quick to say Griffey didn't juice? Fact is, everyone from this era is suspect. Everyone.

Just look at all the steroid users from the Seattle clubhouse in the 90s. Notice how Mr. Griffey was damn durable during his days in Seattle, hardly missing any games except half a season for a broken wrist in 1995, and 1994 he leads the league in Home Runs despite only playing 111 games (strike) with 40 homers.

And then his body completely breaks down and he starts losing power. And speed. And range.

I don't think Griffey juiced. The signs weren't there. It's very difficult to keep that a secret. Alex Rodriguez gave a boatload of cash to keep people's mouths shut and that didn't work.

If A-Rod and Bonds both didn't play with any sort of PED's, they would have still hit over 600 HR's. They're incredible hitters, much like Pujols and Cabrera are, and Griffey was. I have no doubt if healthy, Miguel Cabrera is getting to 600, he turns 32 in 4 days, he has a lot of time to get there.

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Griffey
Nolan Ryan

All modern guys:
Greg Maddux
Derek Jeter
Tony Gwynn
Rickey Henderson

"Boik14 wrote:

Bonds was a 20 hr 50 steal guy before the PED stuff. I just wont dismiss the PED stuff. i wouldnt put Peyton Manning in the HOF if he got caught juicing why would I put Barry Bonds on a baseball Mount Rushmore?

Well it depends on when you think he started juicing. From 1992 to 1997 he was always over 30. He led the league in 1993 with 46. 1996 he had 42. Most accounts have him starting to juice after 1998.

I'd say Pre-1998 Bonds was a better player than Griffey who had power, but wasn't as much of base stealer but that could be due to the league (AL vs. NL).

And let me just say I find the NL an abomination by the way :D

"jdang307 wrote:

Why are we so quick to say Griffey didn't juice? Fact is, everyone from this era is suspect. Everyone.

Just look at all the steroid users from the Seattle clubhouse in the 90s. Notice how Mr. Griffey was damn durable during his days in Seattle, hardly missing any games except half a season for a broken wrist in 1995, and 1994 he leads the league in Home Runs despite only playing 111 games (strike) with 40 homers.

And then his body completely breaks down and he starts losing power. And speed. And range.

A) Griffey was injured from the minute he came on the scene. He was just always hurt. Part of it was his style of play (both the first two wrist injuries were from crashing in to fences) and partially just bad luck. He missed 653 games from the time he was 19 to 39 (didn't include the last season because he was done). He played 160 games 3 or 4x in his whole career. By default you should stay healthy at least a few years right?
B) He had a natural lift in his swing. The homers came rather easily for him. Not that they didn't for Bonds but Bonds had more speed then power especially when he came up. He became a power guy as he grew up and in to his body. People forget Griffey came up at 19 and was going to be a star.

Griffey will always be the GOAT for this generation. He, Jeter and Frank Thomas would shock me more then anyone from that era if they juiced. There are certain players I believe do things the right way either because of what they do or because of what they say and do. Some players surprised me far more then others. McGwire was almost washed up in Oakland. Sosa was an average player in Texas. Clemens looked like he might be in decline when he moved on from Boston. Those are signs IMO. Bonds doubling in size from the time he was a rookie was a sign. Sure players get bigger but he went from Griffey sized to Frank Thomas sized. Get real if you think that's legit lol

"padre31 wrote:

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Griffey
Nolan Ryan

All modern guys:
Greg Maddux
Derek Jeter
Tony Gwynn
Rickey Henderson

I can't put Ryan on that list. Ditto for Cobb. Mays and either Ted Williams, Mantle or Koufax are far more deserving

"jdang307 wrote:

Well it depends on when you think he started juicing. From 1992 to 1997 he was always over 30. He led the league in 1993 with 46. 1996 he had 42. Most accounts have him starting to juice after 1998.

I'd say Pre-1998 Bonds was a better player than Griffey who had power, but wasn't as much of base stealer but that could be due to the league (AL vs. NL).

And let me just say I find the NL an abomination by the way :D

I find the AL an abomination so we are on equal grounds there. I don't care about steals. It's an overrated stat IMO where even good base stealers run in to outs 30% of the time. Unless it's Rickey Henderson, it's useful in fantasy baseball, situational baseball and not much else. It's a resume builder. Griffey was a plus base runner which is far more important to me. While Bonds played a good LF, especially when he was younger, Griffey played CF which is the premier defensive spot after C and SS.

The problem with Bonds career is exactly what you said...no one knows when the steroids started for sure. Therefore it's impossible to put a timeline and accurately assess his career pre and post steroids. My personal opinion of Bonds is that he was a schmuck. He would have been in the HOF without juicing IMO. Guy had ridiculous hand eye coordination. I think ego drove him to juice because he needed to be the HR king. Because he wanted to make sure he was as good as his dad Bobby but even more so as good as his godfather, Willie Mays.

"Boik14 wrote:

Bonds was a 20 hr 50 steal guy before the PED stuff. I just wont dismiss the PED stuff. i wouldnt put Peyton Manning in the HOF if he got caught juicing why would I put Barry Bonds on a baseball Mount Rushmore?

Bonds averaged 30 HRs per year up until 1999 when he supposedly started PEDing. This narrative that Bonds wasn't a HR hitter before he took PEDs is completely false. Bonds also led the NL in slugging % 3 times during that time and had a OPS of over 1.000 for 8 straight years. Bonds also had a WAR of 87.8 from 1989 to 1999 compared to Griffey's 70.5. So let's not pretend that Bonds wasn't just as good perhaps even better then Griffey during the non PED years.

And why would you put Bonds in the baseball Mount Rushmore? Because FinYank said PEDs didn't matter so if you don't factor it in he was the better player.

Look we really don't know who did what and when they did it. And most importantly we truly don't know what effects PEDs really have on players. How many random nobodies have been caught with them and we make jokes saying "he should get his money back" or "must not have took the right stuff". I'm not saying PEDs don't help we simply don't know how much. Who's to say that if Arod or Bonds didn't take PEDs they wouldn't have had similar careers. There are certain guys I don't think took PEDs but I wouldn't be shocked if it came out they did. I personally know certain players that did take PEDs but it has never come out in public that they did. Jose Canseco has said there are players in the HOF who have took PEDs in the past. We just don't know. It's a slippery slope.

"Boik14 wrote:

I can't put Ryan on that list. Ditto for Cobb. Mays and either Ted Williams, Mantle or Koufax are far more deserving

Koufax doesn't get on if we are talking about All-Time no way...

"lmeister3 wrote:

If birds could speak, they would.

I don't get it.

When did Bonds get busted for steroids? I have never heard another player accusing him of it.....only media people saying they suspect it.

I think he may have dabbled, but have never heard of anyone having any proof unlike Clemmons and co.

"Mainge wrote:

I don't get it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsddjadDL9I

"gunn34 wrote:

When did Bonds get busted for steroids? I have never heard another player accusing him of it.....only media people saying they suspect it.

I think he may have dabbled, but have never heard of anyone having any proof unlike Clemmons and co.

The whole BALCO scandal where he was linked to them with a former trainer. There was proof he used them even though he claims he never "knowingly" took them in court.

Oh yeah, duh. Forgot about that

"Boik14 wrote:

I can't put Ryan on that list. Ditto for Cobb. Mays and either Ted Williams, Mantle or Koufax are far more deserving

Those were all guys I'd be happy to pay $$ to see

Bonds, Mays, Aaron, and...I guess Clemens.

Each of these guys probably took PEDs at least one point in their careers. Who cares.

And Gaylord Perry is in the HOF even though he admits to the spitball through his career and wrote about it.

It's all a joke. I like that Rose and Bonds won't get in. The best players of their generation. There is more notoriety outside of the hall.

"Ray Finkle wrote:

Bonds averaged 30 HRs per year up until 1999 when he supposedly started PEDing. This narrative that Bonds wasn't a HR hitter before he took PEDs is completely false. Bonds also led the NL in slugging % 3 times during that time and had a OPS of over 1.000 for 8 straight years. Bonds also had a WAR of 87.8 from 1989 to 1999 compared to Griffey's 70.5. So let's not pretend that Bonds wasn't just as good perhaps even better then Griffey during the non PED years.

And why would you put Bonds in the baseball Mount Rushmore? Because FinYank said PEDs didn't matter so if you don't factor it in he was the better player.

I will never recognize a PED player in that manner. Ever. What is the whole idea of any sport for a player? Aside from the business aspect its to compete vs others under the same rules to create a level playing field. Also regarding the WAR stat, its affected by games played so of course Bonds would have more WAR then a player who missed 20% of his career due to injury/games missed. Like I said though, Ill never recognize Bonds for any of those accomplishments.

"Ray Finkle wrote:

Look we really don't know who did what and when they did it. And most importantly we truly don't know what effects PEDs really have on players. How many random nobodies have been caught with them and we make jokes saying "he should get his money back" or "must not have took the right stuff". I'm not saying PEDs don't help we simply don't know how much. Who's to say that if Arod or Bonds didn't take PEDs they wouldn't have had similar careers. There are certain guys I don't think took PEDs but I wouldn't be shocked if it came out they did. I personally know certain players that did take PEDs but it has never come out in public that they did. Jose Canseco has said there are players in the HOF who have took PEDs in the past. We just don't know. It's a slippery slope.

I wouldnt take claims by Canseco at face value. Id need more. I would however love to know what other players were never named. Ive seen the mitchell report as well as some other documents.

I cant sit here and say that Arod or Bonds wouldnt have had the same career with or without Steroids but you cant say that their careers would have been the same either. For me its a competition issue more then its an accomplishments issue. Ill simply never recognize it. If someone asks me who teh home run leader is, to me its still Hank Aaron. Its insanely stupid for baseball to recognize it as Bonds because youre legitimizing the accomplishments of a player who altered the idea of a level playing field.

"finyank13 wrote:

Koufax doesn't get on if we are talking about All-Time no way...

Its personal opinion. Koufax had a ridiculously great career, it was just short. I could put any one of Maddux, Pedro, Seaver etc on that list.

"jdang307 wrote:

And Gaylord Perry is in the HOF even though he admits to the spitball through his career and wrote about it.

It's all a joke. I like that Rose and Bonds won't get in. The best players of their generation. There is more notoriety outside of the hall.

I agree Perry being in the hall is a joke. If a sport doesnt have purity then it will sooner or later fail. People will question its legitimacy. You have to have that hence my reasoning for never recognizing accomplishments by players like Bonds or Clemens etc. I just dont believe in supporting a player who needs to cheat when the whole reason the game exists is for competition on a level playing field.

Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth.

"Boik14 wrote:

I will never recognize a PED player in that manner. Ever. What is the whole idea of any sport for a player? Aside from the business aspect its to compete vs others under the same rules to create a level playing field. Also regarding the WAR stat, its affected by games played so of course Bonds would have more WAR then a player who missed 20% of his career due to injury/games missed. Like I said though, Ill never recognize Bonds for any of those accomplishments.

From 1989 to 1999, the period I used in the previous post, Griffey played in 1535 games while Bonds played in 1593 games. I doubt a 58 game difference would amount to the difference in WAR.

"Boik14 wrote:

I wouldnt take claims by Canseco at face value. Id need more. I would however love to know what other players were never named. Ive seen the mitchell report as well as some other documents.

I cant sit here and say that Arod or Bonds wouldnt have had the same career with or without Steroids but you cant say that their careers would have been the same either. For me its a competition issue more then its an accomplishments issue. Ill simply never recognize it. If someone asks me who teh home run leader is, to me its still Hank Aaron. Its insanely stupid for baseball to recognize it as Bonds because youre legitimizing the accomplishments of a player who altered the idea of a level playing field.

Why wouldn't you take claims by Canseco at face value? The guy is a scumbag but so far everyone thing he said in regards to steroids and who took them turned out to be true.

I agree I can't say Arod or Bonds' careers would have been the same or different, that's part of my point on the PED issue.

I do find it curious that you consider Hank Aaron the home run leader when he's known to have taken greenies back in the day, which are now outlawed in the MLB and players will get suspended for taking them. So Aaron wasn't exactly playing on an even level playing field either. Again its the slippery slope argument.

I think its is kind of obvious Griffey never juiced, as a guy with above average knowledge on steriods and possibly used in the past....I would lay pretty heavy odds JR never was on the sauce.

"Ray Finkle wrote:

I think Mays and Aaron are no brainers. I can see why people wouldn't want Bonds on the Mount but if you take away all the PED stuff he was a better player than Griffey. As far as Pedro goes, I admit I'm biased, so if someone wanted to make an arguement of Clemens, Maddux or Randy Johnson over him I wouldn't have an issue.

You can assume Bonds was a better baseball player then Griffey. But I think over the course of the first 10 years of their career. Griffey was better. Bonds had seasons in those ten, especially the last couple that was better then Griffey. He looked like he was and was going to continue to be better then Griffey. But you have no clue how Bonds career would of ended without Roids. Plain and simple.

Bonds was a HOF before the roids no doubt. But to put him on a fake Mt. Rushmore of baseball is a joke. Even if you don't put Griffey, putting Bonds is a disgrace.