Mike Wallace..showing signs of life?

"smahtaz wrote:

You really don't think Tannehill will figure it out? He's already figured out how to survive with a weak OL and not much of a running game.

Tannehill figuring it out has nothing to do with what has happened up until this point, no? Figuring it out deals with the future, but we're talking about what's already transpired.

I'm a huge Tannehill fan but I won't contrive all sorts of silly arguments to rationalize his overall poor vertical passing thus far, and I'm certainly not gonna scapegoat the NFL's best deep receiver for the lack of deep ball execution. They can blame it on Sherman; they can blame it on the Oline; but to blame it on Wallace is just flat out absurd.

"jim1 wrote:

Here it is at 1:02

I don't think that it was a very good throw. Granted RT is rolling to the right, but it's short and too far to the right. Wallace blew by his defender, got open deep quick, was wide open, adjusted to a rather difficult catch that should have been easy with a better throw and got into the end zone. I give Wallace an A on that play, Tannehill a C. That was damn near not a touchdown, the DB was allowed back into the play by RT and almost batted the throw down because it was late, short and to the right. Wallace once again had to put on the breaks and he positioned his body well to make the catch.

I don't think that I'm being hard on Rt at all here- Wallace was the star of that play- he blew past his man, got open deep, adjusted for a ball off target, made the catch and got into the end zone. For all the talk of him not being able to to adjust for a deep ball or fight for one, he did a pretty decent job of it here. Roll out or no roll out, that just wasn't a particularly good throw from Tannhehill- I went into watching it again trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I still can't rate that throw as anything higher than average.

The play at 1:25- Rt waited too damn long. It's hard to not look at that throw and see, in some ways, a well thrown ball. Kind of like 55 yards on a rope. The problem is that it was late. No matter how you cut it, Wallace had his man beaten by five yards and that should have been thrown earlier and been a touchdown. Time and time again, maybe the fastest receive in the game has had to slow down or just about stop to adjust for an underthrown ball when he's WIDE OPEN. The solution is simple: THROW THE DAMN BALL SOONER, WALLACE IS TOO FAST TO WAIT SO LONG, YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE HIM SLOW DOWN AND WAIT FOR THE BALL. THAT IS NOT GOOD.

What gives me a great deal of hope is that Tannehill is imo quite capable of throwing good deep balls. Maybe he's just too used to throwing to WRs who run like Bess and Hartline, ie slow to average speed. When RT gets it in gear and releases the ball earlier, imo the RT/Wallace connection will take a quantum leap forward.

I believe it was mentioned on ESPN by one of their ex players that Tannehill should've led the pass further to the left and that it was a TD if he did.

"phinsational wrote:

I believe it was mentioned on ESPN by one of their ex players that Tannehill should've led the pass further to the left and that it was a TD if he did.

Exactly. He should have led him toward the middle part of the field, not put him in a corner closer to the sideline. Look at 1:22 of the clip, the replay- the DB was allowed back into the play because the pass was late and short, not to mention it drifted to the right and took Wallace with him. How much did the DB miss knocking that pass down by? A millimeter? And on a play that should have been an easy touchdown.

Wallace was purely outstanding on that play and showed not only speed to get open deep but concentration, good hands and the ability to adjust for an off target pass with a DB who was all over him by the time the ball got there. Seriously, what more could anyone ask for from a receiver on that play? Wallace made that play happen, and quite frankly Tannehill just about screwed it up with his less than stellar throw.

"jim1 wrote:

Wallace was purely outstanding on that play and showed not only speed to get open deep but concentration, good hands and the ability to adjust for an off target pass with a DB who was all over him by the time the ball got there. Seriously, what more could anyone ask for from a receiver on that play? Wallace made that play happen, and quite frankly Tannehill just about screwed it up with his less than stellar throw.

Wallace' role on that play was no different than Moss' one handed grab against us at home in 07 - and that was coming from all time great Tom Brady.

There's no doubt that work needs to be done by both to make this deep connection work but I do think we are into that stage where it's being over-analyzed.

"phinsational wrote:

That's like saying, "He's a really good chef except for half of the menu he keeps burning". :lol:

Wallace is a Miami Dolphin so you can't just omit him like he's not part of the equation. If Tannehill's deep passes to his primary deep receiver suck, then he doesn't throw a rather neat deep ball at the moment.... unless by neat you mean it looks pretty and spins nicely in route to not making it where it's supposed to go.

"Neat" means drinking your Scotch straight up with no ice, which is often what I feel like doing when I see Tanne miss a wide open Wallace streaking down the field time after time.

"phinsational wrote:

a) that's a bull**** contrived trend that fits your unfounded argument.......
...because
b) the last 12 of those games has featured a QB directly causing the downfield efficiency issues, and that's straight from the goddam QB's mouth.

Obviously it IS a coincidence b/c the deep opportunities have been there but Tannehill has failed to deliver, and the only thing being "ignored" is the fact Tannehill has failed to deliver.

Forget about Wallace for a minute. Since you're such an advocate of the QB making the receiver and how greatly responsible an offense's success the QB is, then answer me this- do you find it acceptable that Tannehill has missed all those downfield opportunities that he says he should've hit? That question is open to anyone BTW.

Explain 7 receptions out of 31 targets in 2012 then. It's funny that all of Mike's woes are due to Ryan, yet he caught essentially the same percentage of deep throws in Pittsburgh last year.

7 of 31 last year and 5 of 24 this year. That's the trend. Apparently, 5 of 24 is a lot worse than 7 of 31 though.

"rtl1334 wrote:

I hope you guys do realize that - on both sides - this argument has become beyond mind-numbing.

Here's the way I see it. Last year and even this year when Tannehill throws deep to Hartline it is either spot on or a very slight misfire. This suggests that their timing is in sync. With Wallace, the pass is either underthrown, slightly underthrown or overthrown. Given Tannehill's passes to Hartline, this suggests to me that this is ultimately a timing issue and no critical defect from either player.

Here's to hoping they've been working on their timing and that this will ultimately be a non-issue come next season.

...and there will always be an issue with timing when it comes to Mike Wallace because he is such a poor route runner. But, hey. I'm just the guy that told you all before he signed that he was not fit for a timing based scheme.

"rtl1334 wrote:

You're touching on something here. We all must realize how difficult it is to judge the speed of a player that runs in the 4.2 range. The margin of error is so small. It's no different than shooting at a moving target, the faster the target the more difficult it is to hit.

We see far better deep throws to Hartline and beyond their familiarity, maybe it's just easier to assess the movement of a player who runs 4.5.

We must realize that even with Ben, a lot of the deep passes required some adjustment on Wallace' part.

The speed isn't the issue. It's the routes. Hartline and Bess run their routes the same. They are very polished in their route running. The same goes for Brandon Gibson.

Mike Wallace is extremely poor as a route runner. He doesn't run them with the same speed or to the same depth. His cuts are not sharp. He rounds off his breaks. He doesn't read coverages well. There will always be timing issues with him because of his routes. This idea that Ryan cannot adjust to his speed is a joke.

"MrClean wrote:

"Neat" means drinking your Scotch straight up with no ice, which is often what I feel like doing when I see Tanne miss a wide open Wallace streaking down the field time after time.

LOL.
I find it amusing that one side is operating on facts, and the other side is operating on "interpretations" of the facts..... yet the interpretation party is acting all uppity like the fact side is the one employing interpretation.

Fact: Wallace is an elite vertical receiver, the best in the NFL the prior 4 years.
Interpretation: those 4 years of stats and everything said by the NFL & commentators about Wallace's deep ability are lies.

Fact: Miami's vertical game has been problematic this year.
Interpretation: this is normal for every NFL team and any good QB-WR tandem.

Fact: Philbin & Tannehill both stated Wallace has been getting open deep all year.
Interpretation: Philbin & Tannehill are lying.

Fact: the film shows Wallace getting open deep all year.
Interpretation: the film is lying.

Fact: Philbin & Tannehill both said Tannehill has had problems converting downfield opportunities.
Interpretation: Philbin & Tannehill are lying. Tannehill threw the ball 70 yards that one time so he's obviously been a great deep passer.

yeah suuuuure, the fact camp is the one who should be doing the "proving". :lol:

"phinsational wrote:

LOL.
I find it amusing that one side is operating on facts, and the other side is operating on "interpretations" of the facts..... yet the interpretation party is acting all uppity like the fact side is the one employing interpretation.

Fact: Wallace is an elite vertical receiver, the best in the NFL the prior 4 years.
Interpretation: those 4 years of stats and everything said by the NFL & commentators about Wallace's deep ability are lies.

Fact: Miami's vertical game has been problematic this year.
Interpretation: this is normal for every NFL team and any good QB-WR tandem.

Fact: Philbin & Tannehill both stated Wallace has been getting open deep all year.
Interpretation: Philbin & Tannehill are lying.

Fact: the film shows Wallace getting open deep all year.
Interpretation: the film is lying.

Fact: Philbin & Tannehill both said Tannehill has had problems converting downfield opportunities.
Interpretation: Philbin & Tannehill are lying. Tannehill threw the ball 70 yards that one time so he's obviously been a great deep passer.

yeah suuuuure, the fact camp is the one who should be doing the "proving". :lol:

You are not operating on facts. You are operating on opinions.

I'm still waiting for the explanation of 7 of 31 last year.

"rtl1334 wrote:

Wallace' role on that play was no different than Moss' one handed grab against us at home in 07 - and that was coming from all time great Tom Brady.

There's no doubt that work needs to be done by both to make this deep connection work but I do think we are into that stage where it's being over-analyzed.

yes, all its doing now is putting undue pressure...sucks, ryan just needs to figure out that this guy can seriously fly.and adjust.

coordinator against Carolina called a proper amount in the Carolina game, he needs to just have some target practice in game situations, no big deal man..

"KB21 wrote:

...and there will always be an issue with timing when it comes to Mike Wallace because he is such a poor route runner. But, hey. I'm just the guy that told you all before he signed that he was not fit for a timing based scheme.

your really milking that eval bro..

"djphinfan wrote:

yes, all its doing now is putting undue pressure...sucks, ryan just needs to figure out that this guy can seriously fly.and adjust.

coordinator against Carolina called a proper amount in the Carolina game, he needs to just have some target practice in game situations, no big deal man..

Do you seriously think that his routes are not a major issue with the timing of the play? Do you really think that all Ryan has to do is adjust to Mike Wallace's speed, that the idea that Miami an run the same pass concept 10 times in a row, and Mike's speed of route and depth of route would be different all 10 times the concept is run doesn't have an effect?

"MrClean wrote:

"Neat" means drinking your Scotch straight up with no ice, which is often what I feel like doing when I see Tanne miss a wide open Wallace streaking down the field time after time.

gotta have ice, and soda water if im gonna drink that stuff...hard alcohol makes my face contort..hate it.

"KB21 wrote:

Do you seriously think that his routes are not a major issue with the timing of the play? Do you really think that all Ryan has to do is adjust to Mike Wallace's speed, that the idea that Miami an run the same pass concept 10 times in a row, and Mike's speed of route and depth of route would be different all 10 times the concept is run doesn't have an effect?

I think you absolutely have a point when talking about short to intermediate stuff, when it comes to the deep stuff were talking about in the discussion, all bets are off, the qb needs to adjust to the way the receiver beats his man..no rules,just get deep, and throw it..

the coordinator also has to adjust, and cut out that fluff and get ryan set up quicker.

"djphinfan wrote:

I think you absolutely have a point when talking about short to intermediate stuff, when it comes to the deep stuff were talking about in the discussion, all bets are off, the qb needs to adjust to the way the receiver beats his man..no rules,just get deep, and throw it..

the coordinator also has to adjust, and cut out that fluff and get ryan set up quicker.

So you are for screwing with the timing with the other receivers just to fit Mike Wallace into the game plan more?

"KB21 wrote:

So you are for screwing with the timing with the other receivers just to fit Mike Wallace into the game plan more?

football is not as complicated as your making it seem, no route is gonna be on the exact mark, when it comes to the deeper routes, that definitely applies, beat your man as precise as you can with less false steps as possible, the qb has to see the field well to adjust his throw..

also, your telling me that you have issues with the premier deep receiver who has amazing speed and has proven that he knows how to get open, about getting open deep.

Seriously, Shouright is banned and an equally pompous troll is roaming freely.

"djphinfan wrote:

football is not as complicated as your making it seem, no route is gonna be on the exact mark, when it comes to the deeper routes, that definitely applies, beat your man as precise as you can with less false steps as possible, the qb has to see the field well to adjust his throw..

also, your telling me that you have issues with the premier deep receiver who has amazing speed and has proven that he knows how to get open, about getting open deep.

My problem is paying a guy $60 million when he only has one strength to his game. And that player isn't nearly good enough to change your scheme around him.

Do you think Green Bay has any issues with the routes of Jordy Nelson?

What's sad is that Jordy Nelson is twice the receiver Mike Wallace is, and he gets paid half of what Mike Wallace does. Green Bay has a much better front office than Miami though.

"KB21 wrote:

My problem is paying a guy $60 million when he only has one strength to his game. And that player isn't nearly good enough to change your scheme around him.

Do you think Green Bay has any issues with the routes of Jordy Nelson?

What's sad is that Jordy Nelson is twice the receiver Mike Wallace is, and he gets paid half of what Mike Wallace does. Green Bay has a much better front office than Miami though.

I think he is a better player than your giving him credit for, 60 mill, no, but do you not think that Philbin knew what he was getting into and may of thought that despite that lack of precision in the mans routes, the strengths he does have he may want to devise an extension of the offense he is so familiar with. ?

Is there not any room for that in the scheme, does it always have to be about possession receivers running precise routes? Or does the scheme have some room to grow, one thing I do believe is that the other receivers are working under better spacing principles because of his prescense and I don't think your putting any value on that and how that can translate into more yards, more tds when you assess his value.

"djphinfan wrote:

I think he is a better player than your giving him credit for, 60 mill, no, but do you not think that Philbin knew what he was getting into and may of thought that despite that lack of precision in the mans routes, the strengths he does have he may want to devise an extension of the offense he is so familiar with. ?

Is there not any room for that in the scheme, does it always have to be about possession receivers running precise routes? Or does the scheme have some room to grow, one thing I do believe is that the other receivers are working under better spacing principles because of his prescense and I don't think your putting any value on that and how that can translate into more yards, more tds when you assess his value.

It hasn't translate into more yards and TDs though, and that has been proven already in this thread. So this mystical ability to effect other players on the field isn't there. If it was, you could measure it.

I also have very little doubt that Joe Philbin did not think Wallace was ideal for his offense. This move was all Jeff Ireland.

Tell me this. Take Mike's speed away from. Is he a good receiver without his speed? Can you see him reshaping his game to extend his career when his speed is gone? Remember, speed doesn't age well.

"KB21 wrote:

...and there will always be an issue with timing when it comes to Mike Wallace because he is such a poor route runner. But, hey. I'm just the guy that told you all before he signed that he was not fit for a timing based scheme.

Your position is noted and full of merit. The problem is that it is moot...to the tune of $60M. Being that we've established that Wallace isn't going anywhere, this team has to decide how best to incorporate him into the scheme.

"Fineas wrote:

If you are betting Reed knew exactly where he was going on the snap then you are betting that he was totally ignoring his zone coverage responsibilities. That's just not how you play zone. I'm pretty sure Ed Reed knows how to play zone coverage. And those stills don't show that he's heading out to Wallace. Wallace is stopped at the 32 and heading back toward the QB. Reed is not running in that direction.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

You do realize that any zone can call for man coverage on the outside at any time right? One simple call by the safety would leave one corner on an island.

And the still photos during the Wallace Td does show Reed heading straight at Wallace. Right as Clay was getting past his man, and heading right into Reeds supposed area

"KB21 wrote:

It hasn't translate into more yards and TDs though, and that has been proven already in this thread. So this mystical ability to effect other players on the field isn't there. If it was, you could measure it.

I also have very little doubt that Joe Philbin did not think Wallace was ideal for his offense. This move was all Jeff Ireland.

Tell me this. Take Mike's speed away from. Is he a good receiver without his speed? Can you see him reshaping his game to extend his career when his speed is gone? Remember, speed doesn't age well.

I completely disagree on the decision to bring in Wallace, I believe Philbin and Sherman had the luxury to choose who he wanted for the offense...with the inside info we had on Jennings and to not go after him, tells me all I need to know..

Well, Wallace does not have great hands, doesn't run precise intermediate routes, what he does have is a particular grace about his movement that can be deceptive and explosive, he seemingly can make great plays under pressure conditions, and I believe he has a bit more football intellect than given credit for..he just turned 27 so I have no interest in keeping him once his speed erodes..in the meantime, if he helps us beat the steelers then we need to rethink things and this is what I mean, we've been doing all the wrong things around these parts for a long time, we've tried different schemes, different players, different coaches, all with the same results, always coming up short, always, if his dynamics brings a different result to the outcome than there isn't going to be any stats to prove anything, it's all going to be dynamics, and if it does happen, it would of happened in the first year of a very young team..I'm not sure you can put a price tag on that.

If we lose 2maro, lets look at the game in a vacum, you may certainly be right.

"rtl1334 wrote:

Your position is noted and full of merit. The problem is that it is moot...to the tune of $60M. Being that we've established that Wallace isn't going anywhere, this team has to decide how best to incorporate him into the scheme.

Merit, is that another word for horse manure?

All I hear is blah blah blah I'm smarter than everyone. I said the Dolphins would never sign Wallace then they did so now I have to explain how big of a mistake it was and film can't do it but I have these random stats that no one puts any stock into but if I just keep saying the same thing over and over and over and I can avoid having to admit how wrong I am.