Then what about the timing of the other receivers. What you guys are wanting is Ryan to basically screw up the timing of the passing game in general just to make Mike Wallace look better than he really is.
That's fair. At times I've questioned his effort too. And if you think about it, if you've been paid to do a job and someone that is directly responsible for you doing that job well isn't performing either, wouldn't you be upset? I mean forget about the money, just the human basic instinct in that right there. Of course. So, I understand that. It doesn't mean I absolve him for it. Actually, you see how negative and pessimistic I've been in the game threads since we lost to Buffalo, you'll know I can't stand him at times. But I also believe most fans have an unreasonable expectation of Mike Wallace due to the contract Jeff Ireland gave him. It reminds me a little of when Miami overpaid for James McKnight.
Yeah this is fine, but if he starts to overthrow him more, people are going to complain about it just the same and an overthow is basically a zero efficiency throw. I'd rather they just fix the timings and play designs to get the ball out quicker, and live with the underthrowns if Wallace at least commits to giving 100% efforts, even if he is not capable of catching many of them.
KB - half of your argument and dislike of Wallace is because of the contract. That much is clear and that's my whole point. I mean you can say that it isn't, but it's clear that your opinion is based largely on what he makes.
And that issue has been acknowledged and beaten to death, I can only assume that you haven't read through the thread and that's why you fail to grasp this. Period. Full stop. The point is that it's a secondary concern, not the primary concern. The primary concern is the lousy deep balls being thrown to Wallace. This is getting so redundant going back and forth, I would much rather see a compilation of the TR/Wallace deep throws as opposed to continuing with worthless bantering back and forth. The tape will tell the full story, and then this can be over and done with. This has devolved into a waste of time, unfortunately reminiscent of a shouright thread.
I'm not sure he is. I always thought of him on the fringe of that number. I didn't like the signing because I didn't see Wallace as a guy that could earn that kind of money.
That's fair. But, we've literally used him in the same manner that Carolina has used Ted Ginn. Are they same receiver? Maybe the aren't, but we sure haven't found a way to utilize him very different other than a 9 route, a hitch, WR screen, or a clear-out/dig route. Do I think we could utilize Wallace better? Yes. Do I think Wallace would have much better numbers if Tannehill had better rapport with him and hit a few more deep balls? Absolutely. Do I think he's worth 60m/5y? No.
Ted Ginn is awesome at it. However Wallace not fighting for the ball also means he doesn't draw long pass interference penalties. Which any wide receiver as open as Wallace could do.
I've read plenty of the thread, and unfortunately many of the post are like this one, who consistently fail to give the issues their proper importance. It isn't about primary or secondary concerns, but more like issue 1 and issue 2, because they are separate. The fact that you see both issues as one, and give one side more blame than the other is the precise reason people argue with you and the precise reason this thread is pushing over 40 pages.
Aye, effort... they both need to improve, but why are people refusing to acknowledge that the 6 year vet receiver needs to catch the balls that hit him or he gets his hands on? He doesn't even have to jump, just make a real effort instead of being so passive. He dropped the game winner against Carolina after getting his hands on the ball and didn't even have his damn arms extended, nor did he dive for it. It was in his hands and he missed it. Fault Tannehill for not gauging his speed correctly on 40+ yard passes, but that will come with time. Tannehill is completing 60% or better to every other receiver, so it's not like he isn't trying to get the same or better results with Wallace, the timing is just off.
No I'm just talking about when there is isolation to go deep, Wallace has to get better at everything else..I'm gonna wait to see for another year and a half how his dynamics affect the offense in positive or negative fashion.
Wrong. Post # 455 djphinfan question: "KB, why don't you take these things into account, why such a hard stance? Why is there no blame to Ryan ?" KB@! answer: "Why? Because Ryan has not shown problems with hitting other receivers on throws of those distances. It is just Mike." So there you go, a quote from this thread that claims that Wallace is completely at fault, no blame on Tannehill. And on top of that, he's not really any better that Clyde Gates. And that's a classic. These are all in posts 406-455. There's also is a great example of shouright-style goal post moving, post #459: "The weak argument here is this idea that Ryan Tannehill struggles so much on deep throws and is the only reason Mike Wallace isn't productive. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Ryan misses wide open receivers more than any other quarterback in the NFL. It's not on me. I've already proven that Mike Wallace is an inefficient deep ball receiver across two consecutive seasons with two different quarterbacks." And that's a big reason why this thread has become shouright style and shouright long- goal posts being moved. Anyway, the central point of my response to you is that your claim that no one has claimed that Tannehill's deep passes don't need work is not true, and now you can read the quote for yourself. Also, and these will probably be my last words to you on this issue- if you're going to state- incorrectly- that it's being claimed that Wallace is in fact doing a good job of fighting for deep balls, your simply wrong- again. You just don't know what you're talking about, I'm assuming because you haven't read through a very long thread. There's no sin in that, but don't feel the need to pull erroneous comments out of your rear if you don;t really know what you're talking about. No need for yo to put words into others mouths.
Wallace got an $11M signing bonus. His salary this season is $1M. Next season Wallace will make $15M. That is a total of $27M that can be construed as a total salary of $16M for 2 seasons depending on whether you count his bonus or not. Wish people would get off the $60M over 5 year BS. Wallace will never see the other $33M if he doesn't start making more effort. If he can't catch it, at least try to get a PI flag or prevent an INT and stop being so damn passive.
No he's not. That's purely speculating on your part. He was crucified by Dolphins fans for his inability to fight for balls and create penalties. I will say this, you're right. Getting a flag here and there would help. One thing Brian Hartline does do well.
I fail to see the context of any of this and how it relates to what I've actually said, as opposed to what you pretend I've said. For instance I never took one sides. I very clearly stated that the reason this argument endures is because people insist on lumping these 2 separate issues as one, and arguing one party is more to blame than the other. Furthermore, none of those quotes really offer evidence that their authors do not believe the deep passes to Wallace need work. I do agree about the last words to each other on this issue.
You clearly haven't read plenty of the thread b/c if you did, you wouldn't be making the comments you are b/c you would've witnessed the massive amount of goalpost moving and gross negligent straw comments, as well as the repeated disingenuous attempts to twist the discussion about Tannehill's deep ball into being about Wallace.
It is not speculating. I have seen a number of times where Ted Ginn gets a long ball, slows down and then jumps up and gets the ball. Dolphin fans crucifying people for the wrong things all the time. They are still crucifying Carroll who is having a good season.
Wow, now I know you're clearly off base here. Your response should be directed at KB or whoever else insists on diverting Tannehill's deep ball woes to somehow being about Wallace. ... and now I know for a fact you haven't actually read through this thread.
What do you think that "It's just Mike" is referring to? Your earlier first sentence: "That's the point though, no one is or has ever argued that the passes don't need improvement." The quote that I referred you to: "Why? Because Ryan has not shown problems with hitting other receivers on throws of those distances. It is just Mike." I don't mean to be overly rude, but it's clear that you haven't read through this thread as clearly as you should have as it pertains to some of your judgemental comments, they're unfounded and off base. You can't even get straight what you said, much less the rest of a very large thread. Do me the courtesy of going others with your comments, not me, this is just a waste of time.
Because scores of fast receivers have come before him and they haven't caught ish. Jacoby Ford? Yamon Figurs? Ted Ginn who is just starting to figure it out a little. Did we overpay? Yeah sure. But that's a sunk cost my man. It's signed. The money is in his bank account. It's over with.
I have zero interest in arguing with you on this Phinsational. You are usually a reasonable poster, but on this issue you have so far been incredibly irrational and increasingly condescending. I think you should perhaps slow down and cool down on this issue a little bit because you are coming at people entirely too aggressive and confrontational. And don't take this the wrong way, because this is coming from someone who likes you.
Wallace will be here for at least 2 more years because the dead money by cutting him will outweigh the cap savings until after the 2015 season. Even then, $27 million over 2 years is too much for a one trick pony.
So a quote that very clearly states that Tannehill has problems hitting Mike deep, somehow in your mind means what I said is inaccurate. OK. I repeat, no one is arguing the passes don't need improvement. No one can. There is evidence every single game. People just get caught up in arguing who is more to blame, who is more responsible.
SMH, that's a load of horse crap. WTH does two opposite sides of an argument have to do with the fact one side is repeatedly moving goal posts, acting in straw man fashion, and is disingenously trying to twist the topic into something else?
Do you have problems with reading comprehension? Let's try it again, post #455: djphinfan question: "KB, why don't you take these things into account, why such a hard stance? Why is there no blame to Ryan ?" KB21 answer: "Why? Because Ryan has not shown problems with hitting other receivers on throws of those distances. It is just Mike." If you can't read that and correctly process it, I can't help you. Again- please, engage other posters, this is just wasting my time.
Sigh. You show up late in this thread making criticisms and arguments that are so unfounded it's ridiculous, yet I'm the unreasonable and irrational one? Righhhht. Yup, it's so unreasonable for Jim and I to specifically discuss Tannehill's deep ball issues in the face of others throwing the kitchen sink in attempt to divert it. Yup, we're the irratiotnal ones even though the coaches and Tannehill himself have noted the issue. And yes, of course I'm not opening doors and pulling out chairs for people who INSIST on acting in straw fashion, move goalposts, and make borderline trolling, patronizing comments like [paraphrasing] "nothing you say matters b/c Wallace sucks anyways and is Ted Ginn 2.0". Furthermore, if you have zero interest in getting into arguments on this, then you probably shouldn't show up late into a thread that you have no clue about and then pick the side that HASN'T been moving goal posts and acting in straw fashion to direct your criticism at.
You should probably REREAD THIS THREAD and others before making comments like this..... unless you enjoy your credibility disappearing.
I wasn't arguing with you, you came and started arguing with me. I have neither criticized nor made unfounded arguments. Yet the nature of your irrationality on this dictates that if people do not see things as you do, they must be making unfounded arguments. You and jim1 are so caught up in your argument, you cannot even realize I do understand and recognize the problem with the passing. Also, unlike you, I haven't chosen sides.
and mine too. The only thing worse than arguing with KB the Wallace hater about this is having someone show up like they're the manager of the thread even though they clearly haven't read through it and thus have no idea WTH they're saying amidst their pompous attempt to assign blame or put others in their place.
Geez you're acting like a troll dude. The fact this thread is so long is all the prove I need people acknowledge the problem with these passes. The argument is one side does not think it is Tannehill's fault and blame Wallace, and your side who think it is on Tannehill. The issue is not for debate, the cause, reason or culprit however, is. And with that, I am done arguing here.
I'm not even gonna rationalize your statement b/c it's beyond full of crap. READ.THE.THREAD. Not that it matters, but you're one post away from going on my ignore. That's how ridiculous you're acting right now in suggesting that the straw arguments and goal post moving in this thread don't exist, that I'm just making it all up as a weak attempt to discredit others. Yup, everyone who disagrees with me is a goal post mover or straw man. If you recognize the problems with the passing then why the hell are you picking Jim and I to direct your criticism toward when we're the ones trying to isolate and discuss the passing issues without having it redirected to a Wallace debate? Yup, now I know for a fact you haven't read this thread b/c I haven't chosen any f***ing sides. Congratulations, you've allowed yourself to get duped or swallowed up in KB's attempt to sabotage any debate about Tannehill's deep ball. You should feel proud.
LMAO. Wrong. This thread is "so long" b/c of the exact OPPOSITE reason- that many posters were NOT acknowledging the problem with the passes and instead were coming up with every excuse under to sun to rationalize the deep throws as being either acceptable or flat out Wallace's fault. THAT is the culprit, yet for some crazy reason chose the other side, the one arguing against all the straw crap and goal post moving, to treat as the culprit. Like I said, congratulations, you showed up late, didn't read the thread, and made unfounded comments that serve to diminish your integrity. Yup exactly. One side irrationally thinks Tannehill's deep ball is fine as it is and that any issues are Wallace's fault, and the other side [mine] was rationally trying to discuss Tannehill's deep ball issues and his deep ball issues alone. about time.
