There is nothing that can be said that will change my mind that Joe Philbin was not 100% on board with this move. The only way you can change my mind is if you have video of the meetings that took place between he and Jeff Ireland when these discussions were done. I'm totally convinced that Joe would have rather drafted receivers to develop into the system rather than bring in a player that he would have to make drastic changes in his system to fit him in.
Yeah. He holds the ball too long. He's just #1 in the NFL in the number of drop backs and #2 in number of pass attempts that are 2.6 seconds or less in time. Apparently he needs to be getting the ball out in 1.6 seconds or less.
It might seem that way but that's not true. The play never had a chance to develop properly the moment Tannehill held it too long. He damaged the play before the ball could even leave his hand. That's the biggest culprit of the play. If Tannehill gets rid of it sooner like he's supposed to then Wallace catches it in stride for a TD. Wallace doing his job of getting behind coverage shouldn't be repeatedly nullified by Tannehill holding the ball too long or flat out underthrowing him. We're paying Mike $60 million to get open deep and chase throws down as he has his entire career, not to act like Ashon Jeffery, which he's not. If you want a guy to catch jump balls and underthrows over defenders then we should've gotten someone else b/c that's not Wallace's game. However, if you want the fastest receiver in the NFL then you need to give him a chance to play like, b/c the quickest way to turn Mike Wallace into a slow, less efficient 4.55 receiver is to underthrow him. Tannehill is making it a lot more difficult than it really is, and if Ireland & Philbin thought Tannehill would have this much difficulty they would've rethought going after Wallace..... but they didn't. They believed Tannehill should be capable of connecting on these throws which is why Wallace is here.
Yeah. That makes sense. Expect Ryan to do what no other quarterback in the NFL consistently does....hit receivers in stride without the receiver having to make any adjustment to the ball 50 yards down the field. I mean, you obviously shouldn't expect a $60 million receiver to actually adjust to the ball.
Well, it has already been established that you have no idea when the ball should be released based on the film study of the Carolina play. You think it is smart to release the ball and have the safety just drift over and track it rather than waiting till Mike is even with him. Something you aren't taking into account though is how much adjustment Ryan has to make due to Mike's poor route running skills. He can't time his passes to Mike and throw the ball to where he is supposed to be. Because of his poor route running, Ryan has to wait till he sees Mike square his shoulders up before delivering the ball. It's really pathetic that he has to make this much of an adjustment just because a receiver is such a piss poor route runner.
Did you mean to say his average is 2.6 seconds?....... b/c leading the NFL in pass attempts under 2.6 seconds doesn't mean anything by itself. That's like you trying to say Pete Rose was a great homerun hitter b/c he had more hits than anyone.
Dude, that was a play with 20 seconds left in the game and Miami on their 30 yard line and down by 4, hardly typical. And on that play you're waiting for the Safety in deep zone to bite on a Wallace move before throwing? Wallace's speed almost made a go of that play, even with the Safety waiting in a deep zone. Given the situation that play was more of a desperation play than anything else. And yes, the throw was late. Try watching some of the other deep balls in that game and Wallace having to wait for late, underthrown balls to arrive. Maybe start with the touchdown to Wallace, successful thanks far more to Wallace than Tannehill, a good place for you to educate yourself as to what's really going on. A stop and go, pretty straightforward. The pass was so late and underthrown that Wallace was actually backpedaling when he caught it, and by the way he (gulp) made a great adjustment on that underthrown ball. Edumacate yourself, please, this is getting old.
RT probably has to release his average pass quickly because the OL hasn't been giving him enough time to throw for most of the year. But you're countering a shouright style argument, goal posts being moved. Either with enough time or without, RT is late in throwing DEEP BALLS TO WALLACE, not factoring in Wallace's tremendous speed. That's the issue at hand, not the average Ryan Tannehill release time. But nevertheless, the stat trotted out is RT's low average release time- that's not really assessing to point being discussed, is it? No surprise there, some people always have to try to win an argument even when they're going down in flames doing it. God forbid that we'd actually stick to the point of RT being consistently late throwing deep balls to Wallace.
Get outta here with this straw nonsense. Who is arguing that Tannehill has to hit Wallace in stride consistently?!! He's not doing it AT ALL at the moment, but for some f***ed up reason you think that's acceptable at the NFL level. Is that how quarterbacking works for you, that the only alternative to being bad with the deep ball is to be perfect with it, as if there's no middle ground? How about if he does it just some of the time, or that too much to ask for?! Peyton Manning hit more downfield receivers in stride in ONE GAME against KC two Sundays ago than Tannehill has done all year, but you're right, it's outlandish of us to expect Tannehill to hit the game's best vertical threat in stride more than the zero times he's been doing. You know, it's amusing how overbearing you get about Wallace "not being a fit for a timing offense", however, when it comes to Tannehill's timing being off in an important aspect of the passing game, not only are you ok with it but you come up with terrible excuses to rationalize it. Can you be more hypocritical?
I don't need to educate myself. I'm trying to educate those of you who continue to think this is more of a Ryan Tannehill problem than a Mike Wallace problem.
There's nothing hypocritical about it. Mike Wallace has dropped TWO passes that hit him in the hands, in stride this season on passes longer than 20 yards, so Ryan isn't underthrowing every pass. CK has already dispelled this myth with a tremendous article over at Bleacher Report. The fact of the matter is a large majority of down the field throws in the NFL are underthrown, because the receiver has a distinct advantage on an under thrown ball, well, a receiver that apparently isn't Mike Wallace. I saw Marques Colston score a TD recently on an under thrown ball to the middle of the field. Colston adjusted, the safety ran by him, and he waltzed into the endzone. I've seen the guy with the best arm in the NFL, Joe Flacco, consistently under throw Jacoby Jones, one of the best deep threats in the NFL. Go watch Josh Gordon and see how many adjustments he makes on long throws. Here: Brandon Weeden to Josh Gordon More Josh Gordon I haven't seen one throw that hit him in stride yet.
Well, that's mostly because he IS NOT consistently late throwing deep balls to Wallace. The only thing that is consistent is Wallace's LACK OF EFFORT in catching those passes.
Why the hell do you persist on going back to one hail mary play as if that's the only deep play of the season?!! GTHO here. So now the game's best deep receiver is suddenly a bad route runner on his verticals? Yup, Wallace's 9 route running skills are so bad that he became 1 of 3 WR to avg 1000+ & 8 TD since '09. The miracle of all miracles, eh? Something you aren't taking into account is your full a **** on this. Roethlisberger completed 38% of his 31+ yard throws when he had Wallace, so no matter how desperately you try to dress up this pig, the end result still comes back to Tannehill's deep ball [23.8%] being vastly inferior to Roethlisberger's, which is unacceptable in and of itself. So let's hear your excuse for Ben's great downfield success with Wallace? Better yet, what's your excuse for Tannehill's 23.5% last year when he had two all world route runners?
a) Wrong. The fact of the matter is the majority of NFL QBs doesn't underthrow their primary vertical threat at the rate Tannehill does. b) In Wallace's case, b/c he's the NFL's fastest starting receiver, he has a distinct advantage when it's aired out rather than underthrown b/c he creates separation while the ball is in the air. Considering the rest of the NFL does NOT run a 4.28 you obviously would rather give them a shot at the ball, even if it means an underthrow, than to sail it over their head b/c they don't have the speed to run under it. I saw Wallace do that recently too. hahaha, no sh-t, that's why Weeden found himself out of a job. Setting the bar high are you?
Well if KB meant to say "2.6 second average release time" then that's indicative of nothing as far as Tannehill's deep ball goes. 484 pass attempts but just 25 throws over 30 yards. All total that's 1258 seconds!! Tannehill could hold the ball for an additional 3/4 of a second on every one of those 25 attempts and STILL be at 2.6 seconds.
hey look at that, 3 TDs each in one game by Foles & Manning to receivers in stride on throws of 30+ yards. That's how you get to 7 TDs in a single game rather than staying at typically 1 or 2. [video=youtube;8ULXGRHt7MY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ULXGRHt7MY[/video] [video=youtube;GVCH3K2CtQU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVCH3K2CtQU[/video]
Even IF Wallace was poor on running other routes, he is just fine running a go route, so on those routes Tannehill does not need to adjust anything due to poor route running.
Timing is a requirement in ALL NFL passing offenses. To say Wallace does not fit in a timing offense is saying he does not belong in the NFL at all.
I love ya, but no. Again, for argument's sake only, if Tannehill is throwing the ball late that prevents it from being a catch in stride to the endzone, Wallace not fighting for the ball prevents a catch entirely. Basically, Tannehill can do exactly what he's been doing and they could still be big plays if Wallace would nut the hell up. We all want a game of bombs, where a fast WR never has to slow down en route, but that game has never happened in the history of the NFL. Tannehill's job of getting the ball to Wallace is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY harder than Wallace making an effort to catch it. Yes, our offense would be amazing if Tannehill hits Wallace in stride more and that will come in time, but it would be better than it is now if Wallace exerted a little effort for the ball...and that could happen right now and probably help improve the timing for the even bigger plays. This is really no different than the Hartline battles from last year, except you're now on the other side. Wallace refuses to make a play on the ball the same way Hartline refused to stay on his feet after a catch. Tannehill is getting most of the other things right about being a QB, the LEAST Wallace could do is fight for the goddamn ball.
You mean like this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-14SQSkRvkE Or this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJnQPuzg5Ys Or maybe here at :42? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0V3M6yM3_w
As soon as RT develops this part of his game, we are going to be a top teir offense in this league. Fight to keep the defense together a few more years, because we are about to have a window for a Lombardi (or two)
Exactly, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Hitting the receiver in stride is ideal, but simple logic dictates that there are degrees of quality between that and blatantly late, short deep throws. If some of the RT deep throws were better it would have made a huge difference. "Perfect" in stride throws are great, but the real question is whether or not "much better" is a reasonable and attainable goal. And it is.
I see a shorter pass (thrown on the run) where Wallace actually adjusts to the ball. Of the two guys involved in that play, one person had the significantly harder job and it wasn't Wallace.
Why is this argument still going on? The incredible all knowing legend in his own mind simpletons have spoken, every missed pass is RTs fault and it'd fact cause they said so. Ignore the reality that the truth is that RT is to blame but Wallace has blame as well. Funny the know it alls point to these plays and say see its tsnnehill yet do not respond when you ask why is it he can make the throws like the one to Clay Sunday or to Hartline other times yet can't hit Wallace? Maybe because there is a disconnect somewhere that isn't all RT's fault? But that can't be because then you couldn't say see how smart I am
Are you reading the posts carefully enough? I've only seen one person on this thread who's said that the failures in the RT/Wallace deep passes are just one player's fault, Wallace of course. You should be able to guess who said that. As to the other posters, I can;t think of one who doesn;t agree that Wallace could do a much better job of aggressively going up to catch deep balls, case in point iirc on Sunday against Pitt. That still doesn't change the acknowledged reality that Tannehill is consistently underthrowing Wallace deep and Wallace is consistently open deep. It's a big problem and it has to be corrected, that's by and large what's being said here. There's only one poster who has to win every argument at all costs (never wrong? really?) and who insists that the whole deep ball issue is on Wallace. And that's just ridiculous.
The big issue as I see it, and I've stated it plenty of times, is the elongated play design. Starting under center, play fake, reset then throw deep to Wallce just isn't working. He's too far downfield. If we're going to play fake I think we need to try it out of the shotgun. This will speed the play up significantly. Otherwise quick three step drops when there's no safety over the top would work as well.
If he had any kind of ball skills that might be true. The reality is that the only thing Mike Wallace does better than any other starting WR in the NFL is run fast.
That all makes sense to me, whatever it takes to get RT to release the ball sooner when throwing deep to Wallace. There has to be some adjustment because this isn't the same as throwing deep to Bess or Hartline- so much more speed to factor in, adjustments have to be made.
It's no more ridiculous than people insisting that a QB should be throwing 60 yards down the field with pinpoint accuracy.
Is it that, or is RT forcing himself to throw that far downfield because he's waiting to long to release the ball to an extrememly fast receiver? The answer is pretty clear imo.
Is it clear? I'm assuming you watched the plays to see when Wallace actually became open? Because throwing to a WR as poor at fighting for a ball as he is when he's still covered wouldn't be wise.
We have established that he doesn't fight or jump for contested balls. We've established that he is not a great route runner. We've established that he doesn't have a great catch radius. But what we have established is that he can blow the top off the defense so the team has to find a way to get him the ball a split second sooner when he clear of the coverage.
When CBs are giving him a cushion and a safety is being left deep how soon can he be reasonably expected to clear the coverage? It's not going to happen at 30 or 40 yards deep. He needs to get better at doing the things that WRs that get paid like he does usually can do well. I wonder if he even knows how much his game is lacking?
Then that is double coverage and you look for the single coverage to make your play. You can't force the ball to him for the sake of forcing the ball to him.
Have we established all that? I can't tell by much of what I've read. What needs to be established is that Wallace needs to fight for the ball, he is not incapable and it is less complicated and difficult then getting the ball there a half second earlier. I don't know why this isn't being discussed.
