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Mike Wallace being shopped by Miami Dolphins

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jim1, Feb 25, 2015.

  1. Phins_Fan_87

    Phins_Fan_87 Phins and Heat fan Club Member

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    It's pathetic that philbin can't control this guy. Thats the real issue here. Instead, we have to ship this guy out so he doesn't infect the locker room. This is such a dolphins move.
     
  2. Zounds

    Zounds New Member

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    Again, that's not what I said at all. I never said the Dolphins can reduce their cap hit - I am only speaking of a new team if Wallace was traded. The Dolphins are going to get hit with dead money if they trade or release him because of his signing bonus no matter what. There's no way around it.

    What I said was a new team that trades for Wallace can restructure his deal. Only a small portion of his renaming contract is guaranteed. A new team would essentially be getting a 3 year $33 million contract, and only $3 million of that is guaranteed. Some of that $30 million in non-guaranteed money (base salary contingent on being on opening day roster) can be converted into guaranteed money (a la signing bonus) in exchange for reducing his total annual salary. Nobody is paying Mike Wallace $11.25M in 2016 and 2017, and reducing his salary is his only chance of being on a roster.
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    So now you ARE talking about a pay cut? When Mike Wallace has been pretty clear that he's not taking a pay cut?

    I think the problem is you're really glossing over the concepts of pay cut versus restructure versus extension. They're all separate concepts.

    Wallace has made it clear he's not willing to take a pay cut.

    So what you're talking about is a team that will acquire his $9.9 million 2015 salary, take all or part of that salary and convert it into signing bonus, which allows them to space it out over the course of the remaining three years, with the understanding that he's either agreeing to a pay cut in 2016, or he's being cut in which case the remaining unamortized signing bonus from the restructure will accelerate against the 2016 salary cap.

    In that scenario the most you can reduce his 2015 salary cap figure would be about $6.0 million. But that $6.0 million just gets shifted into 2016. The team would still be paying Mike Wallace $9.9 million for one year of service. And that's how much they would have on their salary cap, albeit spaced over the period of two years.

    Furthermore if this was the scenario you had in mind then I have no idea why you went on about guaranteeing more of the years in his contract, the 2016 and 2017 salaries. You just got done saying that if you do that you're going to lower the cap numbers, which is not true, and now you're saying that he'll never make those $11.5 million salaries in 2016 and 2017 so he'll have to agree to a pay cut. Well, yeah if you guarantee those salaries then he most definitely will make those $11.5 million salaries in 2016 and 2017, hence the meaning of the word "guaranteed".
     
  4. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    How bout we keep Wallace and trade Philbin instead?
     
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  5. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We should replace Ryan Tannehill for not being able to get Wallace the ball, Bill Lazor for not calling more deep plays, and Mike Tannenbaum/Dennis Hickey for not seeing Wallace's genius or being willing to pay for him.

    We've got a very fast wide receiver I distinctly remember seeing impressive highlight of, we should be building a franchise up around his skills.
     
  6. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    How high a draft pick could we get for Wallace if we traded him and WE paid his salary for 2015? If it's high enough (1st or 2nd), I'd be for it, but I'm not sure how to value such a trade.
     
  7. The Sportz Guy

    The Sportz Guy New Member

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    Why does everyone just think the verdict is out on Wallace already? The Dolphins should be trying to trade Mike Wallace - that's just doing their due diligence. They'd be ignorant not to shop him and try to get something for him. I don't believe that mean he's gone for sure, though. How do we know how Miami feels about cutting him and taking on that dead money? Maybe Miami doesn't want to cut him and take on that dead money, but they're willing to get him off the books for very little value in return.

    It should surprise no one that they're attempting to trade Wallace. And play close attention to the word "attempting."
     
  8. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    So we pay the lion's share of his contract, then kick Wallace free, creating yet another hole on the team? Yes, I know Wallace is not worth the money we spent on him, but you cut him free AFTER you find a suitable replacement -not before. If teams know we badly need a WR there is no chance any of the top three fall to us in the draft (meaning some team will trade up to get in front of us to grab the last one).
     
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  9. pocoloco

    pocoloco I'm your huckleberry Club Member

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    Good golly Jeff Ireland. Thanks for Tannehill I guess?
     
  10. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    ...in a different offense, with a different quarterback, to boot. And even with that same quarterback, in a different offense, the number of those highlights dramatically decreased.

    There was a reason why a guy who ran a 4.33 at the combine was but a mere 3rd-round pick, folks. He needs a precise mix of ingredients to produce like he did from 2009 to 2011, and those ingredients ain't here, and they ain't most places.

    And in fact, in the few places where those ingredients do exist, any old guy who runs a sub-4.4 will do. It doesn't have to be Mike Wallace and his contract, which is why you won't see anybody trade for him.

    Ask yourselves this, folks: if Kevin White's 4.35 is vaulting him into the top five overall of the draft, perhaps, why did Mike Wallace's 4.33 fail to vault him any higher than the 3rd round?
     
  11. Marino1385

    Marino1385 Banned

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    No, but unfortunately it's more likely to happen.
     
  12. Marino1385

    Marino1385 Banned

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    Running another talented WR out of town because of a poor to average QB. Nothing like root cause problem solving.
     
  13. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    That "poor to average QB" did a whole lot better throwing downfield to Brian Hartline of all people, as a rookie no less, than he has to Mike Wallace in either of the subsequent years, with that amount of greater experience under his belt.

    What do you suppose that says about Mike Wallace and his fit in the offense? Nothing?
     
  14. Marino1385

    Marino1385 Banned

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    Tells me Tannehill can't adjust to different speed WR, which is the sign of a poor to average QB.

    Wallace is a poor fit for this offense because of the QB and O-line. Both would need to be fixed.
     
  15. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    So do you suppose that Ben Roethlisberger suddenly became a "poor to average QB" in 2012, when the Steelers implemented an offense similar to Miami's, Wallace was presumably running the same speed he always had, and they were in their fourth year playing together?

    Consider all of the objective evidence, folks. Don't ignore what doesn't fit with your own personal explanation.
     
  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This isn't a thing. Wallace isn't too fast that he's made more difficult to hit accurately, and he's not too fast he is outrunning a throwing range too quickly. It's a very silly idea.
     
  17. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Speed isn't the end all-be all of being an NFL WR. There have been quite a few sub 4.4 WRs who never drafted that high or did much in the NFL, so I'm not sure about the relevance of your comment as to Wallace's draft position in the 3rd round relative to his speed. Would he have been drafted higher if he had better route running skills and was a more polished WR while at Ole Miss? Sure, I can go along with that.

    That being said, Wallace has to be used correctly to thrive in an offense, I'll certainly agree with that. He's a deep threat who will put a shiver into opposing defenses and loosen up Safeties crowding the box and CBs playing tight man coverage. If Tannehill was more competent hitting him deep...man, that would be good. That being said, he had 862 yards and 10 TDs last year playing for a QB who was practically incompetent at hitting him deep. And in the name of fairness, Wallace screwed the pooch several times failing to go all out for a pass and those godforsaken, inexplicable one armed catch attempts.

    The special set of circumstances that Wallace had in Pittsburgh was basically Ben Roethlisbeger, and his abiility to buy time in the pocket and to slide around using his size/brute strength to shake off defenders, while scanning the field at the same time often looking for Wallace deep. Big Ben is one of the best at buying time in the pocket and then heaving it downfield, accurately to a streaking WR, while Tannehill can barely Wallace deep when he has a clean shot. Then you have to factor in the lousy OL pass pro, etc. and what you have is a mess. Wallace's numbers were ok, and they could have been HUGE if RT, the OL and Wallace himself stepped it up. Personally, I'm looking at RT and the OL for most of the blame.

    Wallace could be and should be a post modern Cliff Branch, striking absolute fear into the hearts of defenses with the very important THREAT of getting clocked at any moment with a deep ball for six. To me that's clear, as is Tannehill's confounding deep ball inaccuracy, but then you add in Wallace's refusal to practice with RT before games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI , his lame and selfish one handed catch attempts and his mouthing off to the coaching staff, quitting/getting benched depending on who you ask, etc. All in the context of this happening under the stewardship of Queasy Joe, who seems want want to cut talented players if they fart the wrong way. And there you have it- a mess.

    14 WRs ran a sub 4.45 40 this year at the combine, four ran 4.35 or faster. There's speed to be had, it's there for the taking if we want to go in another direction. Wallace is a supreme deep threat and is best suited to play with a QB who can accurately throw the ball deep, bottom line. Imagine what he'd do with Tom Brady if the Pats could get him for the right price.
     
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  18. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    And that's essentially the point, and why Wallace doesn't perform to the level of his contract unless he's in a situation in which speed, alone, does the trick, i.e., Pittsburgh and Ben Roethlisberger circa 2009 to 2011.

    In other words, the reason why he doesn't produce at that level in other contexts is the same reason why he was a mere 3rd-round pick, despite running a 4.33. More well-rounded receivers, who can thrive in many different types of contexts in the NFL, get picked much, much higher when they run sub-4.4 40s at the combine.

    Probably not much more than what he's done with the Dolphins. Brady's best downfield performance came with Randy Moss, who is the sort of well-rounded receiver we're talking about, and who does much of the "work" for the quarterback that Mike Wallace doesn't do.

    See here, for example:

    http://www.footballperspective.com/which-receivers-elevate-their-quarterbacks-the-most/
     
  19. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    What's silly about it? Tannehill underthrew a streaking Wallace frequently, he couldn't get on the same page. The tape tells the tale, even on straight fly patterns Tannehill usually couldn't connect, and he did frequently have a crumbling OL to contend with. Tannehill is a lousy deep ball thrower, and that weakness is exacerbated when throwing to a very fast WR when his timing has to be just a bit better.
     
  20. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    The Miami Dolphins are facing a tough decision regarding Mike Wallace’s future with the team, but one of the possible options to address his large salary isn’t re-structuring his existing deal.

    Sources tell the Sun Sentinel that Wallace has told the Dolphins he will not restructure the final three years and $32.9 million left on his contract. Wallace, who has expressed his displeasure with the Dolphins' conservative offense, would rather test the free-agent market than re-work the details of his contract, which pays him $9.9 million in 2015, including $3 million of that guaranteed on March 15.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...is-contract-with-dolphins-20150226-story.html
     
  21. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    What the tape doesn't show, however -- because it doesn't exist in a significant quantity -- are the plays where Wallace achieves a high degree of separation quickly after the snap, and gives Tannehill a much bigger window into which to throw, making "timing" less important.

    The receivers who are performing at high levels downfield are doing that far more frequently than Wallace, which gives their quarterbacks far more opportunities to make throws downfield that are easier to complete. With his relatively poor route-running, Wallace is giving Tannehill a much larger percentage of difficult to complete throws.

    Again, there is a reason why this guy was a 3rd-round pick. When he had passes thrown to him after Ben Roethlisberger had evaded pressure and Wallace had broken free of coverage with his speed alone, making him wide open and enabling an easier throw, he thrived. When he's been in timing-oriented offenses, in which route-running is what creates separation, he hasn't.

    People need to realize that when you analyze tape, you have to do so from the perspective of what happens across the league, not just what happens on the Miami Dolphins.
     
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  22. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    He also overthrew him quite a bit.... truth is Tannehill is not a great deep ball thrower and Wallace is not very good at tracking and adjusting to the ball in the air. The difference is that Tannehill is going into his 4th year and is getting better every year while Wallace is going into his 7th year and has already shown a drop in productivity from his early days. I'd say Tannehill has a much better chance at becoming a better deep ball thrower than Wallace is at getting better at tracking and catching the deep ball.
     
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  23. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    It would make for an interesting analysis, but I recall several instances in which Wallace did beat his man cleanly and quickly, got deep and offered Tannehill a great deep target. Then Tannehill either blew the deep pass or the play was screwed because the protection broke down. It's not as if Wallace shouldn't take some of the blame for not making every attempt to track down some of these deep balls, but from my perspective Tannehill certainly has issues with his ability to efficiently throw deep passes, he's just not very good at it in terms of timing and accuracy. No matter whose shoulders we place the lion's share of the blame on, I think that we can agree that the Wallace/Tannehill deep ball connection lacks any semblance of chemistry.
     
  24. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Eventually RT started overthrowing as an obvious compensatory measure, actually to his credit, but for the most part he was a serial offender as to underthrowing a streaking Wallace.
     
  25. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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  26. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    But that happens across the league, to all teams, and all quarterbacks and receivers, at various times.

    The question is, how often is Wallace giving Tannehill an easy downfield throw to complete via his route-running, and how does that compare to the league norm among similar offensive systems?

    What I suspect you'd find is that Wallace is giving Tannehill a far lower percentage of such throws than other downfield receivers who are playing in similar systems. He's simply not cut out for this sort of system.

    Consequently, Tannehill's "degree of difficulty" downfield, when throwing to Wallace, is much higher than that of other QBs in similar systems, who are throwing to better route-runners who have achieved a greater degree of separation more quickly after the snap.

    Throwing to Wallace downfield in this sort of offense is the equivalent of trying to hit the bullseye in a game of darts, after someone has come along and shrunk the bullseye to half its normal size.
     
  27. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    From a physics standpoint it's ridiculous.

    The speed difference between Mike Wallace and other wide receivers and defensive back is only meaningful when it comes to creating separation. You are not creating a notably more problematic throw from either a speed or distance traveled standpoint.

    Ryan Tannehill has problems hitting Mike Wallace because he is being targeted on very deep passes that require extraordinary deep accuracy or excellent adjustment and body positioning. Tannehill doesn't have the former, Wallace doesn't have the latter.
     
  28. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Have achieved a greater degree of separation......

    Perhaps if you spent more time watching games and less time googling stats you would realize this is a laughable comment.
     
  29. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Ryan struggles throwing the deep ball simply because he isn't a good deep all passer (yet) it's really that simple. And it doesn't help when the protection breaks down in an instance.
     
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  30. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I don't know, I saw Wallace get plenty of separation after the snap and Tannehill simply couldn't make the throw to hit him deep. It's a lower percentage pass- it's a bomb after all- but given how open Wallace got numerous times, maybe it should have been easier for RT to hit him open deep, not harder. Wallace's primary function is to get open deep and loosen up defenses- think back to the days of defenses constricting us like a boa with Bess and Hartline out wide, it was sickening. Wallace was brought in to counter that and paid a stupid amount of money to provide a consistent deep threat and loosen up defenses. He's done that, and his numbers would have been huge if RT didn't misfire so often. It takes two to tango, and from my perspective the weaker partner as to the deep threat combo is clearly RT.
     
  31. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Wallace gets open deep, offers a clear target and Tannehill misses him with a piss poor throw- whose fault is that? Those passes do not require extraordinary deep accuracy, they require a QB who is competent at throwing a deep ball.
     
  32. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    What's laughable is whether the analysis of someone on a message board, including myself, based on the watching of games alone, has any credibility or certainty in determining the truth about something.
     
  33. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Apparently they do when it's Mike Wallace who's doing the catching...
     
  34. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    And this is why the analyses of individuals on message boards derived from the watching of games has no credibility. It fails to consider the objective evidence that exists from 2012, for example, that shows that Ryan Tannehill had no problems functioning in the downfield passing game, and as a rookie no less.

    It didn't take you long at all to prove my point in that regard. Your posts were a literal two minutes apart.
     
  35. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    I think it was a poster here, nappy roots, "mike Wallace has the catch radius of a bottle cap"
     
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  36. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, they do require extraordinary deep accuracy when you're throwing to a player who is poor at catching passes outside of his frame. It adds a confounding factor to those "open" passes, and it makes contested deep passes pretty well a dead letter.

    "Deep" production is much more a factor of someone being able to adjust to the inherent inaccuracy of down the field passing than it is "fast". The list of most productive deep players are dominated year in and year out by guys who are 6'3"+, can jump, and can catch outside of their frames. The exceptions pretty much always fall under having a QB with extraordinary deep accuracy or have the ability to adjust above their size range for the most part.
     
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  37. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    That's part of the equation, but the bigger part imo is that Tannehill threw lousy deep balls. Occam's Razor, the solution is that simple, to a large extent, after watching RT throw lousy deep ball after lousy deep ball. And yes, Wallace's relatively small catch radius did not help matters one bit.
     
  38. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article11335148.html#
     
  39. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    2012....thats all they can cone up with.
     
  40. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Wait.. this quote is interesting:

    "While Dennis Hickey remains general manager and the team insists he has final say of the 53-man roster, all major personnel decisions are at the very least cleared with Tannenbaum, sources familiar with the situation say."

    Not sure if that's news to people here (I haven't religiously followed every update), but it's news to me.

    Also cool is how the timeframes for success for Philbin, Hickey and Tannenbaum will lead to decisions. We might be able to indirectly infer who really has control through their "collective" decisions.

     

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