Mike Mayock: Team speed, not Ryan Tannehill, is the problem with the offense

I'm not in denial about anything. I'm not making any statements regarding Tannehill's future. I'm discussing his play today. He's struggling. It's not the receivers, it is him. More explosive receivers would help but at the end of the day, Tannehill would still need to to improve.

Btw, you had the SAME exact reactions to Chad Henne. Everything was on the supporting cast, rather than Henne. You're doing it again, to a T.

 

It's also possible that Tannehill would've had that kind of performance if he were better himself!

You're accounting for plays where the receivers didn't hold up their end of the bargain, without accounting for the ones where Tannehill didn't.

 

You literally made that up. I said Tannehill has been struggling. YOU added the part about him not having a future in this league in my post. I never said that.

And no, we have good talent at the skills position. It's not explosive enough, but Tannehill should be playing better. But again, he is a rookie. He has time. I'm not going to define his career based on 13 games like you swear I did. He receives the proper amount of time like every QB.

 

I'm not complaining about his performance against SF. I'm not complaining at all. Just stating a fact. He has been struggling.

Btw, tells phisnational Chad Henne had a cast. His arguments for Tannehill were nearly the same exact arguments he had for Henne. Only difference was he would blame Henning a lot.

 

They are the only two decent WR's on the roster. Of course they are going to get the majority of the receptions, because no other WR on the roster is worth s***. Yes, I believe if Matt Moore or even Henne was the QB, both Hartline and Bess would have had similar statistics. Moore and Henne would have been in the same predicament as Tannehill, with no other WR's they could depend on.

I think Tannehill will end up being better than Henne or Moore, but given the receivers the Dolphins have given the QB to work with this year, I think Moore and Henne would have had about the same results and Bess and Hartline would have the same yards or more at this time. I also think the Dolphins would have won more games this season with Matt Moore at QB. I have no problem with Tannehill getting a year under his belt as a rookie. I don't believe Moore was the long term answer at the QB position for the Dolphins and even if the Dolphins won one or two more games with Moore at QB, it really was more important for the Dolphins to see what they have in Tannehill and to get him a year of experience.

This team was in a rebuilding mode this season, whether they wanted to admit it or not. When you are rebuilding, you start the rookie QB, not the backup who will probably be playing for another team next season.

 

But you're trying to compare:

• <split end> 4.64 Bess to 4.4 Greg Jennings & Jones, who plays at sub 4.5 speed. {This is like the turtle and the hair}
• <flanker> 4.52 Hartline vs 4.51 Nelson. {Nelson has the ball skills and football speed/long speed to make him a vertical threat, where as Hartline is always caught from behind, can't break tackles, and is NOT a threat to make plays downfield over DBs, run under a deep ball, nor track down off-target throws, which is why defenses can play us like we're constantly in the redzone.}

**There's no rationalizing you can do here. It's pathetic football speed.

In 3+ WR sets it's just as bad:

• <split end> 4.49 Moore vs 4.4 Jennings and 4.5 Jones
• <flanker> 4.52 Hartline vs 4.51 Nelson (they're like a pair of brothers where the first born, Nelson, taps all of daddy's athletic genes)
• <slot> 4.64 Bess vs 4.46 Cobb

**We have 1 guy who plays at a true 4.5 or better speed [Moore] and he's a #6 receiver at best who can't even track a well thrown deep ball. 4.5 and better speed doesn't mean much by itself if you're not a good player.

It's obvious to 99.99999% of viewers, including Mayock and every announcer looking down on the field, that our starting receivers are NOT fast and are not vertical threats. Forty times won't change that, especially when they're 4.52 & 4.64....... and the last I checked, Mayock and others aren't criticizing these other teams' lack of game speed, vertical presence, and inability to stretch coverage. They're criticizing OURS, so your attempt to compare 40 times is futile.

 

Diff is henne had played couple years Rt played 13 games and you are trying to write the book

 

It is very blatantly and obviously untrue that the only time he gets open deep is on blown coverages. Pure nonsense. YAC isn't a very good measure of speed. First, although Hartline's YAC is low this year, he was pretty high in some previous years. Second, some fo the highest guys are not fast at all (e.g., Welker). Third, there are a lot of very fast guys who don't have much YAC.

 

And the week before, against New England, everybody was talking about how he missed Hartline twice for touchdowns.

Those are the plays we can see. How about the ones where you would need the coaches' film to see who was open, and you'd have to know the play call and how it's supposed to exploit the defense to know exactly what Tannehill "missed"?

 

Despite the fact that I said over two times now that I am not defining his career? Are you doing this on purpose?

 

Agree to disagree on the talent. I think they're above average overall.

I agree on the lack of explosiveness. Maybe this off season they'll be more emphasis on that from the running back unit to the receivers unit. The development of Miller and Egnew would be great, too.

 

..... and you wont find ANY complains around the league about Brandon Lloyd not being a vertical threat.
No matter who is at QB he makes plays downfield... with TD receptions of:

• 27, 33, 23, 33, 39, 30, 35, 89, and 22 yards with Tim freakin' Rattay & Ken fargin' Dorsey
• 48, 42, 44, 41, 33 with Orton & Tebow
• 30 & 36 last year with Bradford & Clemens

Enough already with these bologna excuses for our receivers. It's embarrassing.

 

Their skill sets work today, too. Proven by their success.

Hartline is definitely above average. Definitely. He's not explosive but he does many things well that make him a good receiver. I don't see mediocrity there.

 

Jones doesn't play at or time at sub 4.5 speed.

Hartline is 5th in the NFL in deep pass yards and 8th in deep pass receptions. I understand that your apparent position is that every one of those plays was a broken coverage and a perfect pass from Tannehill, but that's just ridiculous.

Again, lacks speed is the knee jerk response to virtually every unit when it struggles. I appreciate that you chose to compare the Dolphins to the Packers instead of the Pats. Obviously, if you do it player by player as you did above with the Pats the Dolphins are faster. Of course, nobody bothers to point out that the Pats lack speed because they have one of the best passing games in the NFL. I'm not saying the Dolphins are particularly fas at all, I simp[ly said that they are not much slower, if slower at all, than the WRs on many of the top passing attacks in football. stright line speed, especially long speed, is simply not that important.

 

Enough of this running in shorts on track surface crap. This isn't a track conversation.
Tell me about their FOOTBALL SPEED... you know- the kind where Hartline gets caught from behind by everyone where as Nelson maintains his separation and 4.5 Jones pulls away from guys and makes it difficult to take good angles.

Show me all these indications of long speed where Hartline pulls away from defenders, splits the safeties, makes defenders take bad angles, or at least doesn't get caught from behind.

 

Yea. If you haven't noticed, I have internet connection. That's information I already knew.

 

Yes, Brandon Lloyd is a vertical threat. But that doesn't make him fast. He's not. Hartline is very similar. He gets open deep with regularity and catches the ball when he does, despite your rants that it is only on broken coverages and pinpoint perfect passes.

 

I do have television. I have watched all the games. I just don't see everything through the Madden view point. Hartline doesn't have to be the size of Marshall or Calvin Johnson to be successful. Neither does Bess. They're both good receivers. They've proven it. Now we look to add more.

 

when you dismiss that his receivers dont get separation and say it isnt the receivers you are then saying it is all tannehill. which is incorrect and just wrong. Some of it is him missing opportunities and yes he has to improve but to put it solely on him is biased and wrong.

I saw Aaron Rodgers overthrow a wide open Jennings twice Sunday for tds, should GB question his ability? Stafford severely underthrew megatron do we question him? Brady missed a couple throws early on this year. Qbs arent perfect. RT mistakes are glaring because our opportunities are more limited so each one is critical. and it isnt all Rts fault our opportunities are limited.

When you put all the struggles solely on RT you are essentially making a judgement IMO.

 

Well your opinion is wrong. I'm not making a judgement on his career. Just on how he's been playing so far. He's been struggling. That's a fact.

 

Who can argue that adding a couple of decent, speedy WRs given Miami's talent and lack of depth wouldn't help any QB? The talent Matt Ryan has in Atlanta makes him look a lot better than he is. One of the worst passers I have ever seen beyond 10 yards. But with Jones being added to White and Gonzalez along with Turner at RB to keep defenses honest it almost makes Ryan look like a border-line top 10 talent who can throw the deep ball.

Personally, I think the concerns with Tannehill being a legit franchise QB goes beyond just getting some talented WRs. I seriously question his leadership and instincts. As a 5th year senior he took a team ranked #8 in preseason to a 7-6 record and out of the top 25. He finished as the 56th ranked passer out of 115 QBs. Can't convince me Fuller, Swope and Co. were the 56th best targets to throw to in college last year. This year he has guided Miami to a 4-8 record with 17.5 ppg (not counting the 30 point game in which Moore played). Throw in that Tannehill has been most inaccurate in the 4th quarter and when the game is on the line, I don't know if having a couple of speedier WRs resolves that issue.

1st quarter = 63.6%
2nd quarter = 59.4%
3rd quarter = 55.6%
4th quarter = 52.4%

As far as instincts, just looking at this game (his 12th of the season, not counting Jets game) and on one play Dierdorg referred to Tannehill not having time to throw. Then they showed the replay and Dierdorf said, "Actually, that was a pretty good pocket Tannehill had to throw from." All Tannehill had to do was take a single step to give him plenty of room to throw. What I have seen all year is for an athletic QB who doesn't have good instincts in moving around the pocket.

Then there was the play in which Miami was in the red zone and he nearly threw a pick forcing it to Fasano who was surrounded by several 49ers. They showed the replay from behind Tannehill, which gives a good look at what Tannehill was seeing and it showed the 49ers left the middle of the field wide open as all the LBs went into coverage or might have pash-rushed. The 49ers defense looked a lot like when Schaub ran it in for the winning score against Miami several years ago when Miami failed to leave a LB to prevent the QB from taking off up the middle. IMO that should have been instinctual for Tannehill to run with that ball to the end zone, especially considering Miami's struggles in the red zone throwing it. Earlier in the game the announcer referred to coach Philbin saying Tannehill needed to do a better job of taking off with the ball as there have been quite a few 1st downs missed when Tannehill could have easily run for them.

The third example from this game is on 4th down with 1:25 left, Miami down by two scores and he threw the ball away...WTF? Never seen that before. Does that really need to be taught in the NFL? Apparently...

I know Tannehill tested well on the wonderlic (35 if I recall correctly), but the wonderlic doesn't give an accurate measure for instinct, which would be football intelligence given the context and split-second reaction in making a smart decision.

I don't know if getting a couple of speedy WRs corrects these types of things that separate Luck, RG3 and Wilson from Tannehill at this point.

 

I disagree with that 100%.

 

Don't ever accuse anyone of not watching games again. Ever.

Hartline is a good receiver. That Is a fact. If you don't agree, fine. Agree to disagree.

 

If Jones doesn't play at or below 4.5 then Hartline doesn't play below 4.7. For crap sake Hartline gets brought to the ground by a stiff breeze; you don't think a full football uniform slows him down?

Here's 4 things Hartline can't do (amidst these clips you can see Jones's football speed):

1 & 2. Make a play after the catch/not fall down after the catch (which Jones displays consistently).
[video=youtube;Fc19m9jSD0M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc19m9jSD0M[/video]


2. Convert a 50-50 lob ball in the endzone, or anywhere for that matter (which Jones has displayed numerous times).
[video=youtube;7ccg_oyWc1Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ccg_oyWc1Q[/video]


4. not be caught from behind or outpace a defense. 0:38 mark.
[video=youtube;JcAe1KIcA3c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcAe1KIcA3c[/video]

[video=youtube;mVK6iHi85JM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVK6iHi85JM[/video]

How does it feel to be apart of the .00001% who believes our starting duo doesn't lack speed and is good compared to the rest of the league?
Long speed isn't important? What planet do you live on to believe this doesn't matter when talking about vertical speed and stretching the field?

 

Than how does he have a good average if 90% of his catches are comebacks? Maybe because they aren't and you made that up?

 

If long speed weren't important, Jerry Rice wouldn't be the all time TD leader..... and Randy Moss & Terrell Owens wouldn't be tied for 2nd.

 

You're officially insane.

 

All his combacks are 15 yards?

 

Hartline has a deceivingly good average b/c he can't contribute in the short game like most good, dynamic, multi-dimensional receivers can. If Hartline had any play after the catch ability, he too would contribute a chunk of high-percentage quick passes at or behind the LOS to add an extra dimension to the offense at the expense of his statistical yards per catch.

 

Matt Moore was very impressive with his 150 yards passing. Also the defense scored a touchdown ok?
All your point reek of distain.

 

Mayock is an ex defensive back who has spent years scouting players and watching games from a birds eye view in the sky.
He has more than enough experience, exposure, and viewed sample size to know what he's talking about, especially when it involving such a definitive statement.

If that's not enough, we have announcers across the NFL with years of experience watching games from above emphasizing the same lack of speed/vertical ability issues.

 

Busted coverages happen to every receiver. He had catches that went for 20+ yards that weren't busted coverages. He's amongst the best at 20+ yard catches.

 

Jerry played faster than he timed. Sounds weird but you know what I mean. I don't know if I saw his 40 ti,e of if he had one but I recall being surprised when I learned he was not a burner by any means.

What he did well was play fast, catch the ball in stride, and take great angles, and hit an extra gear when the end zone was in front of him... But pure foot race speed, that wasn't his thing, IMO.

 

He is a good in between the 20s receiver. He stinks in the red zone.

 

Jerr Rice had a 4.71 40 time.

Just looked it up.

 

This. Nobody is knocking Hartline, but he's just a good possession receiver. All those long receptions are great, but what does it matter when..

a) He gets stopped immediately when he catches these long passes, and
b) when the field shrinks? He disappears.

He can be a big contributor, but he's never going to bust a big touchdown run when we really need it. The only one I can remember was when there was the busted coverage in the Arizona game, and he STILL almost got caught before he made it to the end zone.

 

Hartline should be on this team for the forseeable future along with Bess. They are just not dynamic playmaker. They are solid possession receivers.

 

He has 2 TDs for the season. That is above average ?

 

exactly....nice complimentary WR's nothing more.

 

Why do we need coaches' film when we have objective analysts & announcers watching the game from above who have no problem witnessing our receivers lacking speed, not gaining separation downfield, defenses compressing us b/c Hart & Bess keep us in a constant 20 yard box, and reporting this deficiency to us?