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Miami will be at CKap's workout

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    You said that I said he didn’t have talent. Which post was that?
     
  2. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I'm paraphrasing based off the continued backup narrative that is brought up, not to mention the dismissal of any valid situation he could be put into. But if the argument isn't lack of talent, then there is no argument other than emotional ones.
     
  3. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    So the emotional response to fans who are paying the bills doesn’t count?
     
  4. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Ah "I pay your salary". Inventive. Frankly no, compared to TV contracts you and I are worthless. Also, Fin D already did that argument - it's pure self serving assumption that signing Kaepernick would lead to a fan exodus, but as the Nike situation showed, it is probably at least as likely to have the opposite effect.
     
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  5. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Not he does have talent. It’s the degree of talent level vs the degree of perceived distraction and willingness to be a team player that teams need to take into account.

    if you had to rank QB ranking right now on his talent level being out of the league for 3 years where would it be?
    1 -10
    11-20
    21-25
    26 - 30
    30+
     
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  6. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I have no idea, but if I'm outside the top 10, I'd be looking for a shot. Consider the reaction to our trade of Rosen - it was higher than a lot of people wanted to pay, but you don't get a shot at a good QB all that often, so you have to take it.

    As for the "distraction" narrative, if I was a professional that would be an insult. I really don't feel like arguing intangibles like "distractions" or "team player" or whatever the narrative is going to shift to now to justify keeping a viable talent out of the league.
     
  7. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Then why did they stop showing the kneeling if it was so wanted? Nike is shoes. Shoes aren’t the NFL brand. Some people are starting to come back since because they love the sport But I think it’s easy to dismiss that there was a backlash.

    BTW. After Kaps latest thing about that the revolutionary flag should be onshoes because it’s racist and Nike pulled them, I no longer buy Nike. They were my preferred brand. The flag does not stand for racism. I can’t give support that.
     
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  8. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    2 questions:
    1. Does he present any downside or is it all upside?
    2. Is distractions and team player something I just made up or something that is regularly cited by coaches?
     
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  9. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    1. There is 0 on field downside. I could not tell what, if any, financial risk may be involved.
    2. Probably 90% of what coaches say in public is lies or coach speak.


    Nike doesn't care. I won't respond beyond that because you are getting political and heading for shut down territory.

    I don't know why "they" (whoever "they" are) do anything because I am not "them".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2019
  10. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    He didn't beat a woman or kill a person driving drunk. He's probably better than at least a third of starting QB's in the league right now, and probably 90% of backups. Let's move on and play.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2019
  11. Dolphin Dundee

    Dolphin Dundee Well-Known Member

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    Boooo! This is what Kap brings to teams...Entertained?!
     
  12. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    It keeps the boards busy at any rate.
     
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  13. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    He did it because he had a talk with a marine who convinced him that kneeling was a respectable gesture if he doesn't want to stand.
     
  15. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Taking a different angle, does he seem like the sort of player Flores would want on this team now that it's rebuilding? We've cut and traded a lot of talent. Flores and the FO have a cultures and identity in mind, and I'm not sure an outspoken individual like Kap would fit with that. I mean I couldn't seem him being picked up by New England. If Flores has a similar mindset, then Kap has no future with the Dolphins.
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think the opposite. I think whatever team takes him will have a positive immediate impact with the players. I think most players have the utmost respect for him. I understand there's a small clique of fans who hate him for some reason, but I bet even his jersey would sell out in minutes.
     
  17. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Not sure that's the point in question, though. Regardless of whether his teammates like him, can he be a guy who submits to the organisations, follows the plan, and put the organisation first, even if that means putting the politics to one side?
     
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Why wouldn't he be?

    When he did what he did there was no league mandated or legal reason(s) for him to not do it.
     
  19. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Legal prohibitions or not, all choices have consequences. Ultimately it's up to him and no one can answer that, but he has tied himself to political activism, bu his own choice, so it's a legitimate concern that he might continue more of the same. If there's a team in need of a QB without much in terms of options and he'll accept whatever low risk contract is offered, and the team can accept the media circus that will come with him, at least at first, then sure, have a look. But it's also understandable why teams with other options might look elsewhere to avoid the media attention and risk, considering that he isn't considered a franchise altering prospect.

    As for the Dolphins, and cultures like the Patriots, other QB's would no doubt have been rejected/ignored for less obvious reasons, so for a team that might prefer quietness and keeping things in house, I would imagine they'd be less interested in looking at Kap.
     
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  20. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Great guy, though Kaep is too good for the NFL and they don't deserve him. He's better off without the BS covered and smothered NFL.
     
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  21. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    The Patriots literally employed a murderer.
     
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  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Not once it was publicly known.
     
  23. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    [​IMG]
     
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  24. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Of course not. But I don't think anyone was under the impression that Hernandez was a fine and upstanding member of the community.

    Just look at AB. There are reports BB still wanted to keep him even after everything.

    It's just an easy illustration that culture often doesn't mean what people think it means. The Patriots don't shy away from big personalities or media stories. BB would probably have one 2 minute press conference if they signed Kaep and it would consist entirely of "We are good, it's on to XXXX opponent" repeated until the reporters went home.

    The obvious question some may ask is then "well why doesn't he sign Kaep" and I don't know, because I am not him. But they have generally rolled with Brady + younger development guy (Stidham) rather than a traditional backup.
     
  25. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Except that AB isn't on the team with the Patriots, he actually was cut.
    One or two example of maybe, perhaps, to the contrary, doesn't diminish the point that there are some teams that just don't want certain distractions. That's their choice.

    The Dolphins aren't required to sign anyone, and if Kap is a QB worth signing, and they think he could contribute as a QB, then they can take a look and weigh up that contribution vs. any perceived negatives in distraction etc. etc. It'll be up to them, but if they decide it doesn't work, then that's a valid decision. What wouldn't be a valid decision, IMO, is to sign him up just because it would be a nice thing to do for a guy who received harsh treatment. The Dolphins are rebuilding, I don't know that they can afford signing players for 'nice' reasons like that...if any team can.

    I would rather the team went with Fitz, Rosen, and a draft pick QB, rather than throw in another not great veteran QB. Unless a really good vet. became available, someone to build around, I'm not a fan of picking one up, and I can't think of anyone right now that would suit. Kap isn't that fit, for me.
     
  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Ironically, Luke Falk is suing the league too. He says the Jets cut him because he got injured on the job and he shouldn't have to foot the medical bills. The US labor laws agree and this is actually an important case for players going forward.

    I thought we could use a change of topic since I'm sure this thread is close to being shut down again.
     
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  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned in another thread that Cam Newton to Miami has been whispered lately...I have no idea if there's any validity there but I thought it would be a pretty interesting strategy.
     
  28. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Right, but AB was brought in even after multiple issues. He was only cut after sending texts to an accuser, and the reports are that BB disagreed with that decision, but Kraft wouldn't go there.

    My point is that good coaches can handle distractions and not actually let them be a distraction. "Distractions" are largely just media narratives and garbage coaches looking for excuses imo.


    Lordy, no. A thousand times no. Dude looks washed. I loved his game, but he got smoked so many times. The NFL let that man get wrecked. Maybe if it's a cheap, one year prove it type deal with a team option for another year, but I wouldn't put any faith in him at this point at all.

    The Jets are a flaming dumpster pile right now haha. If I was a free agent, no way I'd want to sign to that place.
     
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  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Honestly, I never viewed Kap as that good to begin with, and after 3 years out of the league, he's not even close to the guy who was in the Super Bowl. What is that, like 5 or so years ago?
     
  30. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    I disagree that distractions are just media narratives. There are plenty of coaches and teams, even beyond the NFL, that talk quite sincerely about players that have 'gotten over themselves' etc. Energy spent on anything other than football is, arguably, energy wasted. It takes all sorts, but there are those who don't wish to waste time and energy on those distractions. From what we've seen Flores is that sort of guy. Like Belichick, he may well be ready to give a guy a chance - that's smart because you can't always tell how much of an issue is the individual and how much is the environment - but once given a chance, if they aren't working out, I suspect he won't waste a lot of time on them.
     
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  31. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    That last part is the key. It is more important to know when to cut bait (for any reason) than to just refuse anyone with an ounce of ... let's just say "personality" to begin with. To be fair, we as fans generally have little idea how a specific locker room of guys come together. That's when the determination should be made by those with the knowledge rather than a blanket refusal to bring people in.
     
  32. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    You are objectively wrong insinuating he was "never that good."

    There is a valid point that being out of the league for 3 years is detrimental to his immediate ability to play. Then again, it's also 3 years of no punishment.

    It would definitely take the right staff - Jim Tomsula and Chip Kelley were clearly jokes as NFL head coaches. But I bet Matt Nagy could do some interesting things to name a QB needy team. In general, look at what Harbaugh did to transition from Flacco to Jackson. That's the kind of coach it would likely take, as opposed to say Bill Callahan in Washington.

    Anyway, the "hes no good" trope is false.
     
  33. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    So then, as I said, distractions factor into things, and since that's the case, it's perfectly valid for a coach to avoid a player if they don't deem it worth the risk. If you see someone who could be great then you consider risking the off-field issues. If you don't see that value then you maybe don't risk paying that price. I don't see Flores wasting the time of Kap because I don't see great value in him, certainly not long term.
     
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  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's my opinion. I never viewed Kap as being the reason for the success in San Fran. But, at this point, he's been out for 3 years, and has not shown any interest in not being a distraction. He's instigating and being antagonistic to the league. He's not worth the headache.

    ****EDIT****
    So I read an article about the waiver the NFL wanted Kap to sign...and it makes all that drama aground the tryout make complete sense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Nike's value is up $26.2B since Colin Kaepernick endorsement. Now it’s close to unveiling his shoe

     
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  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    #getwokegobroke
     
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  37. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure the hes no good trope is wrong. Hes certainly not elite at the very least, even healthy at 100% not missing any time.

    I guess no good would be wrong actually. I think hes average with above average physical tools.
     
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  38. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    After this season it will be 4 years since he's played and maybe he will JUST GO AWAY already.

    By the way, nice shirt he wore to the tryout. Just goes to show that he will up the ante. Who wears that to a job interview?
     
  39. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Probably a fair assessment of him at this point. He had seasons playing at an elite level, but not recently. He was playing at an average to somewhat above average but definitely not elite level during his final season (he played only 12 games). He did play somewhat below average before that final season after Harbaugh left, under notable NFL failures Chip Kelly and Jim Tomsula, with a team falling apart under the helm of failed GM Trent Baalke.

    It is absolutely fair to say he is not a QB that can carry a team all by himself in spite of bad coaching and significant team weakness (see Rogers, Aaron), but he is also a QB that in the right system could be (and was) devastating, and capable of high level play and taking a team into the playoffs.

    He was absolutely better than many starters and most backups. However, after he could not get a contract, their was definitely a narrative of him simply being bad and that's why he wasn't playing. That narrative was objectively bad and false. It is fair to weigh talent vs. "off field concerns" and other nebulous and unquantifiable issues, but frankly that discussion has probably been beaten into the ground at this point. Ill simply note the number of truly, actually unsavory people in the league, indeed we need only look as far as Mark "fourth chance is a charm" Walton.

    Ultimately, it's probably a discussion that can be closed. The NFL doesn't really want him back and it doesn't seem he really wants to be back.
     
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  40. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    You love to see it.
     
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