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Miami Dolphins Ryan Tannehill: Judge me on wins

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dolfan7171, Aug 2, 2015.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes, because all he did was put up four videos, and talk about those 4 plays. There was nothing else. There is also no evidence elsewhere that points to the deep ball only being a problem when Wallace was the target. We've simply made all that up. Also, on his Twitter page, he tweeted out a total of 25 plays, instead of the three or four in his article. He also freely admits that Tannehill missed Wallace on some wide open plays, so it's not like he's just trying to bag on Wallace or other receivers.

    Here, again, we're right back into the argument. One side saying that the deep ball was all Tannehill, and one side saying that while Tannehill struggled, Wallace was also a part of the problem. Surprisingly, the side that is saying that both were part of the problem are being labeled as homers, and accused of basically making stuff up. That's really odd.
     
  2. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If it's his biggest weakness how is it unfair to call it ... a weakness? Seriously? I'm in bizarro land right now.

    Article cited, calls it his biggest weakness, not allowed to call it a weakness.

    Have we all taken crazy pills?

    Remember, I'm not the one who touted the article as anything! Just countering the notion put out by someone else.
     
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  3. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    The guy actually tweeted out like 25 examples in addition...they just weren't in the article.
     
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  4. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There was a mismatch in Wallace's skills and this offense. Everyone from Tannehill to Philbin has stated Tannehills deep passes look much better this year. Good. Everyone jumping on us, we're just agreeing with what the professionals are stating, almost every week. Seriously. Tanny's deep pass is discussed almost weekly outside of this forum. We're not making it a big deal. It is a big deal. The coaches have said as much.

    Wallace needed to be gone, he's gone. Tannehill got some new receivers. His deep pass looks better, allowing his WRs to track the ball better. Let's make it happen.

    http://www.foxsports.com/florida/story/ryan-tannehill-deep-pass-miami-dolphins-offense-081115

    There's Tannehill, making a big deal about the deep pass again.
     
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  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I feel like I'm in bizarro land. Something can be a weakness without it being a terrible flaw. If Tannehill is connecting on deep balls at around the league average, and it's the thing that he needs to work on the most, then it's a weakness. The issue is people blowing it out of proportion, which has been the case all along. If you listen to the narrative put out by some on here, and the narrative that floats around nationally, you'd think that Tannehill was the worst deep ball thrower in the league. He isn't.
     
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  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, who cares what the coaches say? You act as if it's completely ludicrous that the coaches would publicly put the blame on Tannehill, instead of on the diva Wallace. Judging by Wallace's meltdown in the final game, I'd say that there is a very good chance that they would have put more of the blame on Tannehill, cause they knew he could take it, instead of flushing any chance of production from Wallace down the tubes by criticizing him publicly. Not to mention, people around here seem to love to take Philbin at his word on the Tannehill deep ball, but disregard anything else that comes from his mouth.
     
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  7. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's a flaw if you're not great at it. We want him to be great. We want super bowls. So yes, flaws will be pointed out. Everyone has flaws. Rodgers has flaws. Peyton has flaws. Brady has flaws. Weakness, flaws whatever.
     
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  8. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wallace isn't here anymore. This thing about what comes from Philbin's mouth, what is it with you on Fin D with that. It's what he does that bothers us. Like keeping James at RT. Like calling a TO in Green Bay. Those cost us GAMES.

    Fact of the matter, the coaches feel Tannehill needed to improve his accuracy on intermediate and deep throws.
     
  9. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Funny thing is, if Philbin stops mucking up the oline, perhaps the longer passes will get better on the 7 step drops.

    But we're not just talking the 50 yard bombs. I believe there was only one TD pass longer than 20 yards last year. That kind of sucks. Tannehill is definitely doing something different. He wasn't connecting frequently on deep bombs to anyone the past two years,not just Wallace. But this year he's connecting with Landry, with Matthews, etc. Matthews was always here and you can't say it's because he moved up the depth chart.

    http://miami.cbslocal.com/2015/08/1...ice-spent-preparing-for-first-preseason-game/

     
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  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Wallace is gone??? Wish I'd known.

    Look, we're discussing Tannehill's deep ball, and the problems with it, and that directly involves Wallace. Tannehill threw deep at around the league average. Is it a weakness? Sure. Does it deserve the discussion it gets around here? No way. Tannehill may never be "great" at the deep ball. Doesn't mean he can't or won't be a great QB. Again, I take the coaches criticism of Tannehill's deep ball with a grain of salt, as I don't think there is any way the coaches would have publicly criticized Wallace for his poor route running, his chest catches, and his inability to track the ball well. So, they had to say something, as the deep ball to Wallace was obviously an issue, so they put some blame on Tannehill, as they knew he could handle it. No one here has any idea what was said to Tannehill behind the scenes. I find it highly unlikely that the coaches were please with Wallace on many of the deep balls, and I'm sure they weren't pleased when Tannehill didn't connect with wide open Wallace.
     
  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Agree completely on the oline thing. It's been a staple of my argument in regards to Tannehill's deep ball.
     
  12. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well so far, the oline doesn't look any better. Hope Albert returns soon and hope the guards hold up. Having two weak guards affects the two tackles and center.

    For me, deep ball whatever. The YPA needs to get better. To have such a high accuracy number and low ypa is no bueno. We need more 15-30 yard plays. That's on the whole team.
     
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  13. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Here we go....taking it to childish extremes. NOBODY IS SAYING IT IS ALL TANNEHILL AND NOTHING ELSE!! Does he deserve a nice chunk of the blame in the past? Probably. But for Christ sake stop with these "whoa is us"posts trying to paint some one sided picture.

    All it does is keep this pointless topic alive. Just like YOU and a couple others always comeback with "people call Ryan a crap QB"....that's another heap of garbage you use to mask your anger when he is criticized in any capacity. It is high school shnit.
     
  14. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    :lol: nice theory!!
     
  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Childish extremes? I don't think I've seen you one time assign any blame for the deep ball issues to Wallace. I've said over and over that it was on both of them. Not sure how that is an extreme position. There was plenty of discussions where people were calling for Moore to start because Tannehill was garbage...or that we should draft a new QB cause Tannehill was garbage. These arguments didn't start because you and others were saying that Tannehill was a very good QB.

    As to the theory, the proof is that the coaches never publicly criticized Wallace, despite the amount of film out there showing Wallace's massive deficiencies.
     
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  16. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's established Lazor was a fan of Wallace. In that case, I firmly believe he felt it was more on Tanny, than Wallace. The deep ball issues.

    Why would they continue to call out Tanny, when Wallace is gone. He's not garbage, of course not. He's knocking on top 10. he's not entirely to blame for the explosive play woes. But he's a significant part of it. We need more 15-30 yard plays. The 30+ stuff is great, the one or two times a game you can hit it. But we need more 15-30 yard plays. Score from the 30 yard line. That type of stuff.
     
  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Sure...perhaps it's possible that Lazor expected Tannehill to overcome Wallace's deficiencies, and throw a better ball. I'd have to figure any OC would love to have a guy with Wallace's speed...but there's a reason why he's gone, and onto his third team in four seasons.
     
  18. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    If you guys remember, in the last couple of games, Tanne was letting some deep balls rip. He hit on some, but it was the way he doing it. He didn't seem as tentative with his throws. He seemed to just let it rip and threw it where his receivers could male a play on it and he was more accurate. He seemed to be "getting it" as far as the deep ball thing goes. Unfortunately, it was the end and he will have to build that back up, get that feel, muscle memory and comfort level back. He has to build chemistry with the new receivers. I definitely think he can and I am really looking forward to seeing what he can do. He's been ascending every year and I expect the same this year. He has a a nice, wide array of receivers.
     
  19. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well he left Pittsburgh because he turned down THEIR $10m year offer. So I wouldn't count the move from them to us as such a huge negative. So he was dismissed from us, that's one team. Yes. If he's going to do well, it'll be in Norv's offense which isn't Arians, but it should be better than ours for his offense. Although Norv liked his outside receivers to be bigger, fast and able to win some jump balls. Charles Johnson fits the bill, but Wallace is a little small for that role. But Wallace will keep the defense honest with his ability to beat them over the top, I think allowing Johnson to flourish. Time will well if TB can hit Wallace but Wallace vastly improved his other skills (114 rating from Tanny to Wallace, remember) so he's no longer a one trick pony.'
     
  20. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    That didn't take long...

    I thought you were nuetral and assigned blame to everyone? Yet you just said "Lazor must've expected Ryan to overcome Wallaces deficiencies"

    See what you did there? In the same thread in the same day??

    Dont be like your older uncle on this site, have some accountability in the shnit you say...or just fire an excuse. Your call.
     
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  21. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Who said these things and when??
     
  22. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    These stats are from 2013 (pff didn't break it down like this in 2014...shame) but there were exactly 2 QBs worse than Tannehill at passes 20+ yards in the air: Flacco and Henne. The league average passer rating at 20+ yards was 84.1, Tannehill had a rating of 40.1. Its not just a weakness for him, he is actually bad relative to the average NFL QB.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/13/qbs-in-focus-pass-depth/
     
  23. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    People will blame that on Wallace. What were his numbers in 2012? I think they were slightly better
     
  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not going back through three years of posts. Sorry.
     
  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes, I believe his numbers to everyone not named Wallace were right around league average.
     
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    your phrasing that with a 20 yard and beyond stat line..im certainly not..I think most people can discern what constitutes a deep pass, and it aint no 20 yard pass.
     
  27. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Well, it is if you are looking at many of the available stats on deep passing success. Many do consider 20 yd passes to be deep passes. So if you are excluding passes less than 30 yards for Tannehill you have to exclude them for everyone you are comparing him to. If you do that you will generally find that total deep attempts for most QBs are very small. So small that statistical significance is virtually eliminated. If a deep pass has to be 40+ yards in the air you will find that nobody completes them with any real frequency and consistency.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Without context it doesn't mean a whole lot. If all the passes to everyone not named Wallace was around 20, but half of Wallace's attempts were 30+ yards, that has to be taken into account. Landry didn't catch a single catch past 20 yards last year, for example. Wallace's attempts, are unlike almost everyone else. Also, nobody caught a pass past 30 yards in the air last year except Wallace, I believe. Wallace caught 3.

    It's pretty much: Tanny ain't terrible at it, but he's not very good at it, and the WRs we had last year, were not good at rescuing the attempts, or can't even get down the field for one (Landry) so altogether, we lacked explosive plays.
     
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  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  30. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh still around? I would have definitely left after this:



     
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  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I've explained that to you a number fo times, and you being you have ignored it. Of course, that is your MO.
     
  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I love wilful ignorance.
     
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  33. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    The thing is that true deep attempts (30+ yds) are so rare that any data/stats relating to them have virtually no statistical significance. No NFL QB attempts even 2 a game, so one is typically looking at 16-27 such attempts over 16 games. And even with those low numbers of attempts, nobody completes more than 50%. So the difference between those who look like they are good at it and those who statistically appear to be bad at it may be 3-4 over the course of a season. But there is a ton of luck and chance involved too. Think about it as if one were judging NBA players based on 25 3 pt FG attempts over the first 16 games (or any 16 game stretch) of the season. For a lot of guys, that small sample set will bear no relation to what that guy would really do over a bigger sample. Pau Gasol was 12 of 26 on 3s last year (.462). That percentage looks like he is a great 3 pt shooter -- indeed one of the best of all time. But in his career he's been a .278 3 pt shooter, which isn't good at all. Ray Allen, on the other hand, is one of the best 3 pt shooters of all time, but in January of 2014 he was .250 from 3.
    Those kind of small sample sizes make conclusions tricky, especially for something like deep passes when there are so many factors at play -- did the WR run it out completely, did the WR run the correct route, was the pass protection adequate, how many were Hail Mary's, how many were throwaways, how many were dropped, etc.
     
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  34. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Forgive your Uncle....he's getting old.
     
  35. Alex13

    Alex13 Welcome to the NEW Miami Club Member

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    lol, haven't followed this conversation from the start...but do you guys still argue about RT's deep ball....lol
     
  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Since we're ragging on Wallace

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/catch-radius-nfc-north-stars

    He didn't become the league best in catch radius, obviously, but he got much better last year. Tannehill had a 114 rating to Wallace last year. That's pretty good. Without Wallace, Tanny doesn't crack 90 rating probably and is in the high 80's.
     
  37. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'd like to see the team take more shots deep. I don't think we'll see improvement if the team is scared to push the ball downfield. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like the better QBs do it several times a game whenever they see the chance to grab a big play. I think part of having a good offense is having that explosiveness that comes from taking risks on 2nd and 3rd down.

    It was good to see the starting offense look crisp against Chicago, but I think the long, extended drive in football is a rarity. It's good to have one or two a game but there needs to be a willingness to stretch the field. I didn't see that last year.

    The fact the team never rolled Ryan out of the pocket in an attempt to sling it deep kind of tells me they didn't feel it was a priority. Pass protection aside, there are easy ways to attempt big plays, and I still believe Mike Wallace could've been highlighted a lot more as a deep threat. It seemed to me that Lazor elected not to pursue those things.

    That kind of pisses me off. We should've seen more attempts. Trying and failing would've told us something. Right now, the debate is still undecided because there's not as much of a body of work as there should be.

    I do think that has to change this season if the offense is going to take the step forward everyone believes it will.

    I think the league's best offenses generally feature--without hesitation--at least one player. Indy really features TY Hilton, GB really features Jordy Nelson, Dallas features Dez, NE features Gronk and Edelman, NO featured Graham, Denver featured Sanders and Thomas, Atlanta featured Jones, etc.

    I don't think Landry is good enough to feature in the same way Dez Bryant is but when Miami had Wallace, they should've made a bigger point to build game-plans around him. They fact you can have Wallace on the edge and yet spend a lot of the game passing short to Landry and Clay is kind of BS to me.

    There's something wrong that goes beyond players there. I think Minnesota will probably do a decent job featuring Wallace this year.

    At some point you just have to understand, this is the player that provides me the advantage, I have to find a way to maximize that potential. With all the anti-Wallace stuff, I see no reason not to ask questions about the QB and the coaches who seemed so willing to let him go quarters and even halves at a time being largely ignored.
     
  38. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    These numbers always surprise me because it seems like he has some relatively "easy" drops.
     
  39. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    According to one site, he didn't drop any passes past 20 yards, while the rest of the team dropped 6.
     
  40. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Reports out of Minny seem to indicate that Wallace will be third on the team in terms of targets. In other words, it will be the opposite of "being featured this year".

    I would say that the best offenses don't feature a receiver, but rather spread it around. I do think the best offenses feature a RB, though.
     

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