Miami Dolphins Ryan Tannehill: Judge me on wins

"Fin-Omenal wrote:

Disagree. Let me ask you this, if I tell you Ryan is a top 10-12 QB in the league but needs to improve on his improv in the pocket...would you consider that praise or criticism? You would call it criticism because you feel its a given if not a slight to call him top 10-12. How is that fair?

Weren't you arguing not long ago that Tannehill was no better than 15 or 16 in the league? That's when Raf argues with people.

"Fin-Omenal wrote:

I will gladly accept some examples of people saying Ryan is crap etc. what you are doing is following the straw man argument that people dislike or even hate Ryan (or think he is crap) normally it is Dang, DJ or myself who have been critical in some regards and we all have also displayed our excitement to have him as a Dolphin.

So again, I will wait for these examples of Ryan hate and crap being spewed.

as I will await examples of "these dorks want to string you up if you have even the slightest criticism of Tanny", that is a two way street. I'll also be waiting for example of all this excitement being displayed for having Tannehill alongside all of this critical criticism.

"resnor wrote:

The thing is, Fin-omenal, your tone on Tannehill had changed drastically since last season. You, and others, the lady couple seasons, trotted out all these reasons why Tannehill wasn't good enough to be a franchise QB. Now, you want everyone to forget that stuff, since apparently, you like him now. For awhile it seemed that only FinD, Raf, myself, and one or two others, actually liked Tannehill, and didn't go through great lengths to drag him down. You guys used to post these stats, with crazy gymnastics to make him seem like Tim Tebow bad, and when I would argue, you labeled me a Tannehill lover, or a homer.

Was I critical the first half of last season? Absolutely, and with good reason. Any criticism at the time was well deserved. My opinion changed when his performance did. I've called him a top 10-12 QB all offseason. I'm quite far from a Tanny "hater".

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

as I will await examples of "these dorks want to string you up if you have even the slightest criticism of Tanny", that is a two way street. I'll also be waiting for example of all this excitement being displayed for having Tannehill alongside all of this critical criticism.

So you don't have any? Got ya.

"resnor wrote:

Weren't you arguing not long ago that Tannehill was no better than 15 or 16 in the league? That's when Raf argues with people.

No.

In my 2 keeper leagues, I have stashed Ryan. I've got $800 of my own hard cash on him every year. But I will criticize what I think is fair. Do I play devils advocate sometimes? Sure. But that's what this forum is here for.

"jdang307 wrote:

In my 2 keeper leagues, I have stashed Ryan. I've got $800 of my own hard cash on him every year. But I will criticize what I think is fair. Do I play devils advocate sometimes? Sure. But that's what this forum is here for.

"rafael wrote:

IMO the criticism of Tannehill far outweighs the praise. You tend to hear far more skepticism than belief. I agree that nobody claims he's perfect or even elite, so I don't see any out of control praise. But there have been threads about replacing Tannehill, him being beat out by Freeman, several doubting that Tannehill is even in the top half of the league's starting QBs. I'm probably among the few that believe he's practically a lock to be among the top 10 QBs this coming season. Anybody who sees more praise than criticism on this site hasn't been paying attention.

I guess I have been his biggest critic this offseason..I stand by everything I've said...and ftr, I've said that I'm not sure he has enough to win it all..but if we build a really good team around him then maybe so..

The one thing I've been clear on is when I say a sense of consciousness and to know when to tuck and run and I will believe he can get it done, so far its been three years and haven't seen a inkling of consciousness about the element.

now you keep telling me that its gonna come, and maybe so, maybe this is the year, but I just cant go there..none of this means I won't be rooting for him nor do I lack the vision of the things he does do well and how you all are accounting for projection and growth, but I think your still basing your things on his potential..which is cool, I just want him to realize that potential a little faster..I have said that I know for a fact that no other qb in history has ever made this type of transition, so maybe this slow process is a part of that.

I have stated that I think he will improve this year, numbers and all, but my eval of him will take place in the playoffs..I know he's good enough to get us there.

"djphinfan wrote:

I guess I have been his biggest critic this offseason..I stand by everything I've said...and ftr, I've said that I'm not sure he has enough to win it all..but if we build a really good team around him then maybe so..

Isn't that how any team wins the Super Bowl? By building a really good team around a QB though? Sure, you have the rare "pretty good" team that goes on a roll in the playoffs every so often, but how many of those end up as champions? Last one I can think of was the 2001 Pats (and many of us believe that they were up to no good even back then).

IMO, there are about 20 teams in the league who would kill to have Tannehill at QB for them.

"Unlucky 13 wrote:

Isn't that how any team wins the Super Bowl? By building a really good team around a QB though? Sure, you have the rare "pretty good" team that goes on a roll in the playoffs every so often, but how many of those end up as champions? Last one I can think of was the 2001 Pats (and many of us believe that they were up to no good even back then).

IMO, there are about 20 teams in the league who would kill to have Tannehill at QB for them.

hmmm, at some point your qb has to be good enough to win the game on his own.there are too many plays that await to be made to just rely on your skill players..I think it can only get you so far.

ryan did not have a good scrimmage tonite..showed poor touch, placement and anticipation on some throws..

"djphinfan wrote:

ryan did not have a good scrimmage tonite..showed poor touch, placement and anticipation on some throws..

You're a dead man Deej!

I hope not, I think most folks would say the same, its not the end of the world by any means, but theres enough plays that we can see that were poor, the stats and rating kinda back it up.

a perfect example of him not ever running on his own accord is the mccain int last nite, if you watch the play, ryan hesitates because mccain gets caught up for a second in the route, ryan pulls it back reloads then makes the mistake to just flick it up anyway, with no plan in mind, the ball was on our 3 yard line, after he hesitated and deciding to reload, there was absolutely no'one near him and the end zone, I mean it was as clear as it gets to just trot three yards and call it 6, wide open lane... it didn't even register in his brain...not only are you taking 6 off the board, your not getting the field goal either, and you gave the ball away on the 3 yard line..dissapointing that he didn't recognize it even though it was a scrimmage.

"djphinfan wrote:

I hope not, I think most folks would say the same, its not the end of the world by any means, but theres enough plays that we can see that were poor, the stats and rating kinda back it up.

a perfect example of him not ever running on his own accord is the mccain int last nite, if you watch the play, ryan hesitates because mccain gets caught up for a second in the route, ryan pulls it back reloads then makes the mistake to just flick it up anyway, with no plan in mind, the ball was on our 3 yard line, after he hesitated and deciding to reload, there was absolutely no'one near him and the end zone, I mean it was as clear as it gets to just trot three yards and call it 6, wide open lane... it didn't even register in his brain...not only are you taking 6 off the board, your not getting the field goal either, and you gave the ball away on the 3 yard line..dissapointing that he didn't recognize it even though it was a scrimmage.

And that is the "feel" i think he will develop this year. Despite the small sample size, from the little bit I have read/seen shows he is alot more comfortable in year 2 of Lazor Ball...

The pressure of the deep ball is off and it appears he is "letting loose" much more here early. My biggest concern is that the OL gets pummeled early and often and Ryan develops the career altering happy feet in the pocket. If he can avoid that then this team will do great things. And by great things I mean get into the playoffs and win games.

I figured this thread was probably the best spot for Fahey's terrific article on Tannehill:

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/142017354/ryan-tannehill-training-camp-reviews-true

That's a great article, and really, REALLY illustrates what many of us were saying last two seasons.

"FaninPatsyLand wrote:

I figured this thread was probably the best spot for Fahey's terrific article on Tannehill:

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/142017354/ryan-tannehill-training-camp-reviews-true

Thanks. That article highlights how accurate Tannehill is. That chart showing all the attempts regardless of result concludes that Tannehill was accurate on 83.2% of his passes. I don't know how that compares league-wide since I haven't the same chart for all QBs, but I can say that watching the full games of QBs like Luck, Peyton and Wilson my perception was that those great QBs threw a higher percentage of inaccurate passes than Tannehill. I do take issue with the statement that his accuracy was "bloated by throwing so many short passes". Reality is that Tannehill did not throw a particularly high percentage of short passes. He's just above the league average for passes from 1-10 yards (49.8% to 50.5%) and had a lower percentage of passes in that range than such notables as Brady, Peyton, Flacco, Brees and Matt Ryan.

I wonder how things would be viewed differently if some of those spot on passes in the article had been completed. Maybe one or two of those games would have been wins instead of losses and Tannehill is suddenly a QB that lead his team to the playoff. And a few more long completions would dramatically change Tannehill's oft-criticized YPA. IMO it's pretty obvious that if his receivers catch a few of those passes Tannehill's yardage jumps by 300yds or 400yds and suddenly his YPA 7.3 - 7.5. He also has a few more TDs and his QB rating is about 97 arguably making him the most statistically impressive 3rd year QB and nobody is arguing about whether or not he's a top 10 guy. Obviously all QBs suffer some drops, but Tannehill suffered drops in a particular area of the field that skewed that segment of his stats. If Tannehill had done everything exactly the same (in other words he's the exact same QB he was last year), but had his receivers make a few more very easy plays and the perception is completely different.

"rafael wrote:

Thanks. That article highlights how accurate Tannehill is. That chart showing all the attempts regardless of result concludes that Tannehill was accurate on 83.2% of his passes. I don't know how that compares league-wide since I haven't the same chart for all QBs, but I can say that watching the full games of QBs like Luck, Peyton and Wilson my perception was that those great QBs threw a higher percentage of inaccurate passes than Tannehill. I do take issue with the statement that his accuracy was "bloated by throwing so many short passes". Reality is that Tannehill did not throw a particularly high percentage of short passes. He's just above the league average for passes from 1-10 yards (49.8% to 50.5%) and had a lower percentage of passes in that range than such notables as Brady, Peyton, Flacco, Brees and Matt Ryan.

I wonder how things would be viewed differently if some of those spot on passes in the article had been completed. Maybe one or two of those games would have been wins instead of losses and Tannehill is suddenly a QB that lead his team to the playoff. And a few more long completions would dramatically change Tannehill's oft-criticized YPA. IMO it's pretty obvious that if his receivers catch a few of those passes Tannehill's yardage jumps by 300yds or 400yds and suddenly his YPA 7.3 - 7.5. He also has a few more TDs and his QB rating is about 97 arguably making him the most statistically impressive 3rd year QB and nobody is arguing about whether or not he's a top 10 guy. Obviously all QBs suffer some drops, but Tannehill suffered drops in a particular area of the field that skewed that segment of his stats. If Tannehill had done everything exactly the same (in other words he's the exact same QB he was last year), but had his receivers make a few more very easy plays and the perception is completely different.

It's nice that someone who actually has experience with evaluating sees stuff that I see also. I watch other games, and even posted some of the throws I saw guys like Peyton and Luck have completed, that Tannehill wouldn't have a chance to have had completed. People love to exaggerate the amount of throws in the 1-10 yard area that Tannehill throws, and I have pointed out many times, it's lower than the guys you listed. I really think that Tannehill could blow away people's expectations, even if he's the exact same QB as he was last year. I fully expect the receivers to make more plays, and as you pointed out, a couple perfect balls being caught will significantly elevate his stats, and completely change people's perceptions.

"rafael wrote:

Thanks. That article highlights how accurate Tannehill is. That chart showing all the attempts regardless of result concludes that Tannehill was accurate on 83.2% of his passes. I don't know how that compares league-wide since I haven't the same chart for all QBs, but I can say that watching the full games of QBs like Luck, Peyton and Wilson my perception was that those great QBs threw a higher percentage of inaccurate passes than Tannehill. I do take issue with the statement that his accuracy was "bloated by throwing so many short passes". Reality is that Tannehill did not throw a particularly high percentage of short passes. He's just above the league average for passes from 1-10 yards (49.8% to 50.5%) and had a lower percentage of passes in that range than such notables as Brady, Peyton, Flacco, Brees and Matt Ryan.

I wonder how things would be viewed differently if some of those spot on passes in the article had been completed. Maybe one or two of those games would have been wins instead of losses and Tannehill is suddenly a QB that lead his team to the playoff. And a few more long completions would dramatically change Tannehill's oft-criticized YPA. IMO it's pretty obvious that if his receivers catch a few of those passes Tannehill's yardage jumps by 300yds or 400yds and suddenly his YPA 7.3 - 7.5. He also has a few more TDs and his QB rating is about 97 arguably making him the most statistically impressive 3rd year QB and nobody is arguing about whether or not he's a top 10 guy. Obviously all QBs suffer some drops, but Tannehill suffered drops in a particular area of the field that skewed that segment of his stats. If Tannehill had done everything exactly the same (in other words he's the exact same QB he was last year), but had his receivers make a few more very easy plays and the perception is completely different.

Its actually interesting you bring this up rafael because Fahey has a twitter account that he was using as a medium to evaluate Tannehill as a leadup to this article over the weekend. Anyhow, he touched on this topic and I've copied the relevant tweets below:

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630459407743250436

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630459746194182145

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630460348802433024

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630460837581426688

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630461736034914304

"FaninPatsyLand wrote:

Its actually interesting you bring this up rafael because Fahey has a twitter account that he was using as a medium to evaluate Tannehill as a leadup to this article over the weekend. Anyhow, he touched on this topic and I've copied the relevant tweets below:

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630459407743250436

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630459746194182145

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630460348802433024

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630460837581426688

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/630461736034914304

That's interesting. I had never seen this article or heard of this guy before you posted it.

In terms of bad pass percentages I did see another site that addressed the issue:

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-bad-pass-percentage/2014/

They had Tannehill as the 5th best in the league in this category in 2014 with 13.90% bad passes (or obviously 86.10% good passes). That's similar to Fahey's 83.2% number. And matches my stated perception that Peyton, Luck and Wilson threw a higher percentage of bad passes.

There was a contingent of us RT fans on this site last year who argued these same theories, analysis, whatever you wanna call it, so it's nice to see a piece supporting it.

I've been really high on RT, particularly since Game 5 onward last season...I saw some special there, and it has stuck, and while it's only pre-season, it seems to be blossoming further with some of the play he's exhibiting.

The potential exists for this to be a VERY good year for RT, the team, and us fans. I'm ready for the ride.

"FaninPatsyLand wrote:

I figured this thread was probably the best spot for Fahey's terrific article on Tannehill:

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/142017354/ryan-tannehill-training-camp-reviews-true

This SHOULD be the final word on who is to blame for the deep passing woes, but I fear the pro Wallace contingent will still find something to make up.

"Fin D wrote:

This SHOULD be the final word on who is to blame for the deep passing woes, but I fear the pro Wallace contingent will still find something to make up.

Meh...he's gone...his play will speak for itself in Minnesota. I didn't watch the HOF game, but I heard at work that he dropped a pass...and didn't feel any surprise.

"Fin D wrote:

This SHOULD be the final word on who is to blame for the deep passing woes, but I fear the pro Wallace contingent will still find something to make up.

did you know that ryan said that his deep ball needed to improve and that he needed to work on it this offseason?

"djphinfan wrote:

did you know that ryan said that his deep ball needed to improve and that he needed to work on it this offseason?

Did you know that football players don't generally throw their teammates under the bus?

i mean seriously.