Miami Dolphins: Ryan Tannehill is a dark horse in the NFL

You brought those names up, not me...I said folks like you get butthurt when some folks like me talk about what we, or I think he needs to do to become a champ qb, and the general reasons of disagreement are usually based on ''I don't want my qb running'' or dual threat qbs are a ''gimmick''.

these are debatable theories as they pertain to ryans skill set..so if you wanna debate about how you think he's going to reach his potential then say so, don't make it personal like you did, were all here giving our opinions..From reading your last paragraph you obviously don't follow close enough to tell me what is reasonable in my analysis, I'll clue you in so at least you now and don't generalize someones opinion..

Ryan does not run on his own accord...when he does that I believe he can reach his full potential...thats what I've always said, I've never said I want him to be wilson or Cap because I'm not stupid, he doesn't have those specific athletic traits to do those things they do, but, when he simply refuses to run the football to threaten a defense when your as athletic as he is, and when that disregard lands you in the bottom third of third down conversion rate, and you continually do not use any other athletic traits but your right arm, thats an issue that needs to be addressed..He can athletically do what I'm suggesting..

If you wanna call me voicing that opinion that martyism then were always gonna get intern argument.

now if you wanna debate what you think he needs to do fulfill his potential than I'm all ears and we can move forward..during this thread I was pointing out all kinds of positive things until you chose to take me saying what I think he needs to do to reach his potential personally..

my position in summary is, he hasn't utilized nor has his coach utilized his entire skill set...you seem to think he is or that Im wrong so id like to hear why you think that.

 

It's silly to act like his lack of running is what has the third down percentage in the bottom third. Or that it's even the main contributor.

 

IMO, the thing with Ryan is that he does have the athletic ability to run more in certain situations (wide open run lanes for easy first downs) and so far he hasn't, for some reason... maybe it's because of the level of comfort and speed of processing information. Maybe since he's still quite new to the position and had a new offense last season, he was still thinking rather than doing. Heck, maybe this season it'll all be an afterthought and he starts running more often.

I wouldn't want Tannehill to turn into a running QB like CKap and Wilson, but what I do agree with you is that he needs to be able to run in certain circumstances , which he really hasn't done much, as you point out.

I don't think it's fair to compare him with Ckap or Wilson, like Clark said, because their style of game is different, but we should compare him with other pocket passers who have shown they can and will run when the opportunity presents itself, guys like Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck, and Joe Flacco. I agree with DJ that if Ryan does start running under those circumstances and takes advantages of the opportunities presented to him, it will benefit him and the offense as a whole.

Now... do I think he necessarily needs to develop that ability to become a good or even great QB? No, I do not.

 

And my point is, we're not getting butt hurt. We recognize that Tannehill is a pocket passer w/mobility. He chooses to stay in the pocket, read defenses, go through progressions, and pass the ball. That's his game. I want Ryan Tannehill to be who he is, to the best of his ability. And I think both arguments are listed are fair. I'll get into specifics, rather than be general about it.

1. Rushing QB's take more hits and are at a higher risk on injury.
The top 10 rushing QB's in the NFL were...

1. Russell Wilson: 118 rushes, 859 yards
2. Colin Kaepernick: 105 rushes, 641 yards
3. Cam Newton: 103 rushes, 539 yards
4. Blake Bortles: 56 rushes, 419 yards
5. Ryan Tannehill: 55 rushes, 317 yards
6. Aaron Rodgers: 43 rushes, 269 yards
7. Andrew Luck: 64 rushes, 263 yards
8. Alex Smith: 50 rushes, 254 yards
9. Geno Smith: 59 rushes, 238 yards
10. Teddy Bridgewater: 47 rushes, 209 yards

The top 10 most SACKED QB's in the NFL

1. Blake Bortles: 54 Sacks, -338 yards
2. Colin Kaepernick: 52 sacks, -336 yards
3. Ryan Tannehill: 47 sacks, -331 yards
4. Alex Smith: 47 sacks, -249 yards
5. Matthew Stafford: 45 sacks, -255 yards
6. Russell Wilson: 44 sacks, -263 yards
7. Jay Cutler: 39 sacks, -237 yards
8. Cam Newton: 39 sacks, -295 yards
9. Teddy Brigewater: 39 sacks, -249 yards
10. Josh McCown: 37 sacks, -237 yards

Notice any familiar names? Of the top 10 most sacked QB's in the NFL, 7/10 were the top 10 highest rushing QB's in 2014. Jay Cutler was ranked 11th in rushing yards FYI. Of the top 10 rushers in the NFL who didn't make the most sacked list, Rodgers had 28 sacks, Luck had 28 sacks, and Geno had 31 sacks. Those three were the most efficient in rushing and avoiding sacks. Although, Rodgers may be an anomaly, as he's often one of the most sacked QB's in the NFL year-to-year. And has suffered two major injuries over the last two seasons as a result (collarbone and torn muscle in calf).

Basically, 80% of the top rushing QB's were among the most sacked players in the NFL (Cutler is basically top 10). Not only are these QB's taking more hits by rushing the football, they're holding onto the ball too long behind the line of scrimmage and taking more hits. Odds are, if someone can find the stat, you'll see that rushing QB's also take more hits/knockdowns behind the LOS, that don't result in a sack. Trying to make plays with your legs, rather than your arm (primary responsibility of a QB) leads to more physical contact.

Rushing QB's get hit significantly more than classic pocket passers. And they lose significantly more "hidden yards" than pocket passers as a result of the high sack numbers. Wilson, Ckaep, Newton all had far more rushing yards than they lost in hidden sack yardage. The rest were so close, they're we're practically even in yards gained and lost via rushes and sacks. So it's nothing more than push for most of the league. Not worth the risk. Injury risk is a fair argument.. 100% legitimate.


2. Rushing QB's are less efficient passers than pocket passers, and less efficient overall in terms of production.

The Bottom 10 rushing QB's were... *Note, I excluded guys who didn't play at LEAST 14 games. So you're missing McCown, Sanchez, Foles, etc...

1. Peyton Manning: 24 rushes, -24 yards
2. Ben Roethlisberger: 24 rushes, 32 yards
3. Eli Manning: 12 rushes, 31 yards
4. Tom Brady: 36 rushes, 57 yards
5. Tony Romo: 25 rushes, 61 yards
6. Drew Brees: 27 rushes, 68 yards
7. Joe Flacco: 39 rushes, 70 yards
8. Derek Carr: 30 rushes, 87 yards
9. Matthew Stafford: 43, 93 yards
10. Rivers 38 rushes, 104 yards


Now if you compare their overall passing numbers w/the top 10 rushes in the NFL, there is a big difference in overall production.

Bottom 10 rushing QB's combined for...
302 Total passing TD's/30.2 passing TD average.
127 Total INT's/12.7 INT average
42,664 total passing yards/4264 pass yards average

Top 10 rushing QB's combined for...
219 total passing TD's/21.9 passing TD average. +21 Rushing TD's
110 total INT's/11 INT Average
34,744 Total Passing Yards/3474 average passing yards + 4008 yards rushing

Top 10 pocket passers in the NFL combined for (not including their rushing stats, which would increase their value even if only sligtly)...
30.2 TD's, 12.7 INT's, and 4264 yards passing.

vs.

Top 10 rushing QB's in the NFL combined for...
21.9 TD's (24.0 Total TD's), 11 INT's, and 3474 yards passing (3875 total yards).


And let's be honest... Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck, and Ryan Tannehill combined for a total of 105 passing TD's and 13,187 yards. Almost 50% of the passing TD's came from these 3 players and almost 1/3 of the passing yards. They absolutely skewed the average upward for rushing QB's. Their top 10 rushing group is still none the less, much less productive overall than pocket passers. And I didn't include fumbles, which rushing QB's have more of. If we cut the list to top 5 rushing vs. top 5 pocket passer, the difference in statistical production would be MASSIVE, even if you supplemented the rushing stats into their total production.

Rushing QB's take more hits, fumble more, get sacked more, lose more hidden yardage, aren't as productive as passers, and aren't as productive overall. Rushing QB's are less than their pocket passing counter parts. Only Aaron Rodgers have demonstrated elite passing ability and rushing prowess. Andrew Luck is knocking on that door atm.

By doing what he's been doing. Tannehill came into the NFL with very little experience and was so raw, common thought was he needed two years of development on the bench. In three years as a starter, he's improved every facet of his game, despite a lot of adversity. By staying in the pocket he's developing and improving the fundamental QB skills necessary to succeed in the NFL. He should continue doing that. Master his craft. If we were told in 2012 that Tannehill would have a 90+ QB rating in his 3rd year, he'd be a Redskin, not a Dolphin.

Too many QB's take the easy way out and use rushing to mask their inability to play the game from the pocket. When all is said and done, playing from the pocket is a necessity. If you can't play from the pocket at any given moment, you're not a complete QB. Aaron Rodgers tears a calf muscle. His mobility? Pretty much gone. The result? He balls the **** out anyway, and relies on his ability to pass from the pocket. That skill is at his command at any moment. He mastered it long ago.

Wilson, Ckap, RGIII, etc... They lose their mobility? They lose their game. They're DONE. And I like Wilson a lot. I think he's a top 10 QB, knocking on the door of top 5 given his overall game. But I understand Seattle not wanting to make him the highest paid QB in the NFL, like he wishes. Sorry bud, you're no A-Rod. You're no Andrew Luck. Wilson tears his calf muscle, his ability as a pure passer is significantly altered.

RGIII and Kaepernick have seen their passing game regress as NFL defenses have forced them to play from the pocket significantly more than in their earlier careers. Earlier you mentioned Ckaep has a QB rating in the 90's for his career. Better than Tannehill's 84. Fun fact, RGIII has a career passer rating in the 90's too... Tannehill is still a better QB than both though. Both are fighting their jobs. Neither player may be with their respective teams in 2016. Strange, that... If they were really as good as their ratings suggest, that wouldn't be the case.

Tannehill, to reach his full potential needs to keep doing what he's doing. Developing as a REAL QB. His athleticism isn't going anywhere. He's also got the best weapons of his career, so that's something to look forward too. Talent that fits the scheme. I'm glad Tannehill developed his passing ability, rather than to mask his inexperience w/rushing.

I know he can athletically do what you're suggesting. I'm sure Tannehill knows that too. Same for Philbin and Lazor. He doesn't run because it's not his game. And there's no evidence that threatening a defense w/rushing ability is better than threatening a defense with passing ability. In fact, just the opposite as I demonstrated earlier. Pocket passers still rule the roost and out produce their rushing QB counter parts. The best rushing QB (Wilson) didn't come close to out producing the worst rushing QB, Peyton Manning.

And I don't think there's evidence to support Tannehill not rushing on 3rd down's has to do with poor conversion rate. In fact, given that 3rd down is a passing down, and our offensive line can't pass block for **** over the last three years, I'd say our 3rd down conversion rate has more to do with immediate pressure in his face.

Tannehill is a pass first QB. And it's a good thing too, because it's the primary responsibility of a QB. It's fundamental to the position. He has the athleticism needed to throw a proper change up. If that aspect of his game evolves, cool. But if not, his ability to evolve as a passer make it irrelevant anyway. That MUST happen. And the signs are encouraging at this stage. [/QUOTE]

I think Tannehill's best skill set is a pocket passer, despite his athleticism. That's a skill set that's improving every year, despite terrible offensive lines and ill fitting weapons. And that's the skill set that really matters in the NFL. Throwing from the pocket is the foundation of a QB. If a QB can't do it on command, nothing else they do will matter.

If Tannehill evolves his rushing ability, as he gets more comfortable and experienced as a passer, cool. As long as it's a natural evolution. Trying to make a pocket passer into a running QB is no different than trying to make Michael Vick a pocket passer, IMO. You're never going to get the results you want. You build an offense around the skills of your QB. Ryan Tannehill is a pocket passer, despite having the athleticism to do more.

 

and I want ryan tannehill to lead this team to the playoffs, something that hasn't been done in his three years.. while leaving skill set on the table...

So you can sit back and wait until he wins the Super Bowl from the pocket, and we'll all hope, or, he can start engaging other elements to his game that he's capable of..

you continue to condemn qb's who use their entire skill set and have been extremely effective, just because they use their entire skill set, yet you give ryan excuses for not..basically your content on continuing to miss the playoffs as long as he just operates from the pocket...i'm not, not when you can run the way ryan runs..he has been what he is, and thats a qb with a dual threat skill set that refuses to use it...well, its his 4th year, what he's been doing hasn't gotten the job done yet has it?...no..

I want ryan to be his best, theres no harm in pointing out what I think that is, theres also no harm in saying if he doesn't I don't think what he is from the pocket is enough.

 

Ryan Tannehill hasn't lead this team to the playoffs in three years? It's all on him? The collapse in 2013 and 2014 was on on Tannehill. The offensive line didn't completely buckle in 2013, to the point where Tannehill was injured and pulled from the buffalo game? Only to start the next week vs. the Jet's and get his *** kicked all over again. And are we really blaming him for 2014? He had a rough start, the first three games were suspect. After that, he played extremely well. Had Miami in a position to win in Denver, until Jarvis Landry dropped a pass that hit him in stride, in the hands, and caused Tannehill's only turnover and subsequently sealed the game for Denver. Or the NE game in DEC. in which he had two INT's, both bounce off receivers hands IRRC? Or the entire month of December, when he had like a 95 QB rating? It's all on him?

Are you saying, Tannehill can't win the SB unless he starts running more? I don't think there's any evidence of that. I don't think there's any evidence than Miami would win more games if Tannehill ran more.

I don't condemn all of them. I like Russell Wilson. He's great. He learned from pro style offenses, and his knowledge and skill translated to the NFL. I like Cam Newton. I think he'll evolve if Carolina ever decides to give him a supporting cast worth a damn. I don't blindly think rushing QB's are superior to pocket passing QB's, especially when all the evidence favors pocket passers.

Incorrect. I think Tannehill playing from the pocket and evolving as a passer is what's going to help us get to the playoffs, on a long term basis.

Is Ryan Tannehill the only player on the Dolphins? He's being blamed for an awful lot... This is what I mean when I said, you fault him for not being who you want him to be. I fail to see any evidence that Tannehill running more and throwing less would equate to more wins.

Drew Brees didn't make the playoffs, and he was competing for the QB triple crown, as usual. Missed the playoffs 2/3 years in fact. A couple of 7-9 records. If QB ability is all that determined whether or not a team makes the playoffs, shouldn't NO have made the playoffs the last three years straight? Shouldn't Aaron Rogers win the SB every year, since he's the best in the game?

OK... But you're using a lot of examples to prove your point that may or may not be relevant. Such as blaming Miami's 3rd down conversion rate on Tannehill not running. Or blaming him for missing the playoffs, when there much larger and more obvious issues at hand w/various units. Those examples don't prove your point. But I'm moving on... The end.

 

I think Tannehill's best skill set is a pocket passer, despite his athleticism. That's a skill set that's improving every year, despite terrible offensive lines and ill fitting weapons. And that's the skill set that really matters in the NFL. Throwing from the pocket is the foundation of a QB. If a QB can't do it on command, nothing else they do will matter.

If Tannehill evolves his rushing ability, as he gets more comfortable and experienced as a passer, cool. As long as it's a natural evolution. Trying to make a pocket passer into a running QB is no different than trying to make Michael Vick a pocket passer, IMO. You're never going to get the results you want. You build an offense around the skills of your QB. Ryan Tannehill is a pocket passer, despite having the athleticism to do more.[/QUOTE]


Awesome post Clark.

 

I don't know DJ. Ryan played good enough the last two years for us to make the playoffs but the Defense let us down in every loss, that is what really cost us the playoffs. All he can do, is call the play that was called. He had the fifth most rushing yards for a QB last year. I think that this year, Lazor will turn Ryan Loose.....give him a carte' Blanche to change out of the play at the LOS and we will see his number of carries and total yards go up pretty good as when he is in RO we can use the defenses speed against them to make way for another 20-40 yard run. But, keep in mind that Ryan operates out of the pocket and he wants to throw if he can...if Miami can have a defense that can play like Seattle's then Tannehill has a great chance to lead us,possibly, deep into the playoffs.