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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by TotoreMexico, May 24, 2008.
I don't like the title much, because that should go without saying. I didn't see where Beck said that, so it probably just a title. It does emphasize that Beck is well aware and working hard.
Nice to hear from John. Of course, I always hear these hopeful articles about our young guys at this time of year.Sometimes it pans out, and sometimes, well...
I hope Johnny has a great year.
I still think he could become a poor man's Peyton Manning eventually (not this year) averaging 28-35 TDs, 10-12 INTS and passer ratings between 85-95.
What? A Poor Man's Peyton Manning? Uh...I guess there is a lot of latitude with the words "Poor Man". Last year, he was a poor man's (and a very poor man's at that) Jay Fiedler. Hopefully he can become a poor man's Drew Brees, and even that may be asking alot.
There have been some here that said the exact same thing.. he was trying to hard. I think(read hope) that getting the proper amount of reps with the first team will settle the guy down and allow his talents to take over.. as opposed to his forcing things unaturally.
Dude, you can't be serious, can you?
All I know is Beck better evolve a little faster. You don't want him coming into his own at 30+. He's 27 right now already, isn't he?
ever heard of a guy namrd rich gannon? heck, beck has 7-8 more years left.
lol I would take a good qb thats 30 then what we have been through last few years. Even if becks career is short but a good one I would take that any day. There is always time develop another qb then.
Beck (more than likely) is going to be akin to Damon Huard. He can come in to games and win some games for you. And that is a good thing to have. Hopefully, he'll be happy being a backup and not want to leave every year to try to start some where.
And of course, there is a (tiny, small, minuscule) chance that I could be wrong and Beck will be a serviceable starter. And if so, what a bargain. From a guy who couldn't take a clean snap to a serviceable starter. If that happens, maybe the football gods are starting to smile on Miami.
What I see playing out though is that Henne is eventually (by next year, if not sooner) taking over the starting job and McCown and Beck fighting for one roster spot. The key will be getting one of those guys to committing to being a backup, and being happy in that role. Thats a tough sell, but BP did it with Hostetler.
I would be happy if he just had the sort of year Ferrotte had for us, 15 td's, 10 int's or something along those lines, I think he can do that at least, he just needs the chance to play.
Our offense statistically improved last season (believe it or not..) in terms of points per game, now with Ricky and a healthy Ronnie and Wolford maybe John Beck can keep the trend going upwards.
I'm beginning to like our personnel on offense, we do have some weapons on that side of the ball for a change, "if" Ted Ginn improves and Ricky shakes off the time off, we could surprise teams this year.
This topic has been debated ad nauseum, so I won't go into all the reasons you're off base here, but suffice it to say, you are. I'll let the season play out and JB's play prove you wrong.
I have often compared Beck to Bob Griese and the later has seemed to take special interest in Beck.
Hopefully he turns out to be as good
as I recall, ol four eyes played some good ball here and there..
they just interruped TV for an extreme thunderstorm warning and the nearest one is across the state in Ft. Myers. They didn't do this yesterday until 3pm, today might get interesting.
Try waking up to Tornado Sirens at 5:00 AM on Mothers Day. I'd appreciate any warning that something bad is going to happen - even if we have to wait until the next day
I keep looking at Beck and seeing some of the things we saw with the early Griese. His first season was a bit trying at moments, but nowhere near as much as Beck's. Now, Beck did not have an offensive line (except in the fact that the O Line was by character offensive), nor a running game, and no one to speak of to throw to. Other than that, he was in what was considered the "offensive unit." Given some improvement, which seems to be soon afoot, I want to see how the young man works this year. I hope we can groom Henne and trade him for a draft pick to select another young quarterback to groom in a couple of years.
I see Phil Simms big time when i look at John Beck, I dont know if some of you realize this or not but John Beck has special talent when throwing a football, now hes got to work on his body and control, but when he does and he will IMO, YOU ALL WILL BE WITNESS TO HOW BEAUTIFUL HE THROWS A FOOTBALL. EFFORTLESS, QUICK SLINGER OF THE ROCK.
Sorry, he is nothing like Phil Simms.
As long as Beck can take the snaps cleanly this year, he'll have a great year.
Marty, remember they nick named BG Mr. Peabody after he was fitted with the peeps?
indeed I do.
That storm is pretty bad here in Springs as well, whereabouts in Ft. Myers you live Marty? I grew up there.
EDIT: My bad, read your post wrong. Looks like you're on the east coast.
Nothing wrong with having faith, StLFF. But you have to admit that is what you have...faith. There is no reason (much less, "all the reasons" I am off base) for you to think the way you do. Nothing we have seen from JB suggests he will be a good QB.
And you are correct, I could be wrong. No wants me to be wrong more than me. But, more than likely, I'll be right. But don't worry. I won't rub it in. I'll just say, "we already knew, now lets move forward".
LOL..yeah, right. That was a big problem for him.
I disagree. Sure he had a lot of fumbles last year as a rookie. But I think he did show us that he has all the tools to succeed in this league, from the work ethic to him managing games. He showed us that when asked to not lose the game for us, he can accomplish that given assignment. Remember all the things he did was behind a sub-par offensive line, no main weapon, guys picked up off the waiver wire and inserted into the starting lineup by default and a piss poor defense. And to add to that terrible list, NO receivers. He had Ginn but he was still getting adjusted to this league and Marty "Slip-n-slide" Booker was well, slipping and sliding as well as dropping balls.
The stats may not show it but I think he handled it well after being thrown into the wolves by Cameron.
Did you miss his whole college career then? Good preseason? Flashes of a good QB in the garbage time of Cincy?
Do not forget, Beck received zero regular season snaps, ZERO, until about a week or two before he started. yes Cameron was a bumbling idiot, and when Trent Green went down, him or Mueller or both, refused to grab a 3rd QB. So there were only two QBs on the roster, and one must run the scout team apparently. Then they finally get a 3rd qb, John takes a couple 2nd team snaps, then Cameron, desperate for a spark, a safety valve, anything, inserted him into the lineup as a starter. Then when that didn't work for 3 weeks yanked him back out.
Cameron is the idiot and is at fault. Beck was not set up to succeed. So essentially it's like taking a QB in the draft, giving him no preseason no snaps no games then the week before opening day, saying, "you're our starter." Think he'll look good?
It still boggles my mind that people want to judge Beck on last year. 4 games on one of the worst teams in the history of the NFL, after not being able to practivce with the starters for over half the season, and people are writing him off...lol. Whatever.
Beck absolutely showed flashes of what he is capable of. Sure he was clearly not ready and not adjusted to the speed of the game but you also saw incredibly accurate passes, a strong arm, good anticipation and timing. Those elements weren't obvious often enough but they were clearly present. Anybody who doesn't see that has no business analyzing QBs.
I agree. Great post rafael!
Based on what YOU think of Beck, and what YOU saw in Beck, there's no reason to believe besides faith. Key word being YOU. I saw plenty. When one evaluates a rookie QB, one must read between the lines a little, for so much of what talent is there is obscured by so many things (rookie jitters; poor OL play; lack of a running game; lack of a go to receiver; lack of a HC with balls; etc.). If you can't see that John Beck is LOADED with confidence, poise, leadership, toughness, a lightning quick release, and a very good arm, then I can't make YOU see what I see.
So yes, I do have faith, but it's not rooted in HOPE, but in hints of some high level TALENT that I saw, but YOU didn't. As they say, we can agree to disagree, but don't dismiss my convictions to ignorant, blind faith. I'm no fool.
So my belief in Beck is blind faith, because he's shown us nothing on the field to suggest otherwise, but your apparent confidence in Henne is based on rock solid evidence of what kind?
How many NFL games has he started? None. How many preseason NFL games has he played in? None. How many snaps has he taken with the first team? None. How many ways did he outperform Beck in the college ranks versus the same opponent? None.
I find your reasoning to border on arrogance.
Balance is what it is all about, give Beck the OL and a running game to make passing easier and we've got a winning combo there. All we would need then is Beck to be Griese-like or even like Fiedler, who took us to the playoff the last time we went, and not by himself either. Beck has the tools, the drive, the work ethic, and if we give him the solid OL and running game, look out fellas, we just might have a winner here.
He has to be better than Jay in third down conversions. That was Jay's greatest weakness. I can't count the times when just twenty more yards would have made the difference in the game for Mare to score instead of us having to punt.
How did it end? Did we get the twenty yards or have to punt?
Well, Beck will have a chance to show he's more than the bumbling jackass who fumbles more often than he throws touchdowns. I'm willing to bet he can;t wait to get out on the field to erase those memories.
In Beck I saw early poise, on a plummeting plane, and with disarray around him... despite being shoved out of the plane without a parachute by his fearful leader Cam "Deer in headlights" Cameron.
He has great timing, anticipation, a quick release, good zip on medium range passes, though he has to 'body' the long ball a little bit. he still has a good arm, just not a cannon.
His biggest problem seemed to be his footwork; both in getting away from the center and in his throwing motion. Those are fixable and with a competent coaching staff (presumably?) that should improve.
He is also a student of the game and tireless film room and playbook student.
I don;t see a lot to dislike in Beck. I doubt he'll set the world on fire this year, but i think he'll very competently and assertively take and keep the starting job. His so-so to decent production will mainly be due to our O-line being newly throw together and young, a new Offensive system being learned by EVERYONE, and by so-so batch of receivers.
I honestly think Beck could acquit himself well with an 79-82 passer rating this year and then an 85-95 passer rating next (2009) season.
If not, I'll have a Henne-light, please.
Rookie? So what. Trent Edwards was a rookie was FAR BETTER than Beck. In three games with Beck as QB, we didn't score a TD. Beck might be great. He might be like Peyton Manning (as someone ridiculously suggested earlier in the week)...or he might be what we saw last year...a QB who is not going to be a player in the NFL.
We can rationalize (as you did) that he was only a rookie and played on a horrible offense. But the point is, sometimes players rise above their circumstances and make a scramble or a an incredible read or a great throw....Not Beck. He was a bad rookie on a bad team.
Now this year, maybe he turns out to be great. I know you guys hope so, and so do I. But all we have SEEN is that he isn't very good. Hopefully that changes. But let us not lose sight of the fact that it was not for nothing that the new regime drafted a QB early and signed a FA to compete. They watched John Beck as well.
If College careers were relevant, the Andre Ware and David Klingler might be in the HOF. Forget about it. I don't care if he was Mr. August. Thats also irrelevant. "Flashes" in garbage time? You think Cincy didn't know it was "garbage" time?
I did see the three games in which he started. We didn't score a TD. He looks small. He plays small. I think I saw the same thing that Parcells saw when looking at Beck. A QB that MIGHT be good, but we better prepare for the fact that isn't good.
The difference is that I am looking at this situation without passion or prejudice. I am just looking at the bottom line. You guys are looking at what "might" happen, and what "might" have caused JB to be sub-par and trotting out every excuse known to man..."he was a rookie...he had a bad coach...he had a bad Oline...he had no running game"...All true, but he didn't help his coach, his line, or his running game. No defense was out there saying, "hey, careful on playing the run, Beck will beat you". Didn't happen.
This is the NFL. You get judged. If you play four plays, four quarters, or four games, you get judged.
Now let's be fair to Beck's critics....none of us are saying to cut Beck and that he doesn't deserve an opportunity. All we are saying (and it appears that Bill Parcells agrees) is that there is nothing that we have seen to give us a reason to think Beck will be a great QB. He might. Who saw Anderson in Cleveland coming? So there is hope for Beck. But thats all it is...hope and faith. Nothing tangible.
So when you say "people are writing him off" you should man up and name names. Who is writing him off?
Un-huh. Let's put your theory to the test.
If you are correct, then anyone whose business it is to evaluate QBs would agree with you, no?
On the one side, he was not ready and not able to adjust to the speed of the game.
On the other hand he has a strong arm? Check. No doubt the guy can throw. But then so could Ryan Leaf. So that gets you no points.
Incredibly accurate? No. He was not incredibly accurate.
Anticipation? No. He showed no anticipation to brag about. He looked like a rookie on a bad team. Against Pittsburgh he didn't anticipate a blitz on two plays that took us out of FG range.
Timing? What do you mean? I have no idea why you would use this word to defend Beck.
So all you have given us that withstands scruitiny is "strong arm" and that isn't worth much in this league.
Now, lets look at who agrees with you and who does not. If Cam Cameron would have stayed, no doubt, JB would be annointed the starter. So that is a coach who was a loser in college and went 1-15 in the NFL. He is on your side.
Bill Parcells looked at the same games you did and decided to sign a FA and draft a QB to compete with Beck. Parcells has turned around four franchises and won two SBs. He is on my side.
Hmmmm....Parcells on one side of the debate and Cameron on the other. Are you guys comfortable taking Cameron over Parcells?
Who doesn't understand football now?
Ok. I want you guys to take sides. Alen and Rafael have taken the position that Cam Cameron knows more about what kind of QB it takes to win in this league than does Bill Parcells. I believe BP knows more than Cameron.
So far for Cameron its....
for Parcells its...
Don't be shy now. I am interested to know how the majority here view this.
No, you are not a fool. I didn't insinutate that you were. I will insinuate however that you are on the side of Cam Cameron vs the side of Bill Parcells vis a vis John Beck.
Ok, fair enough. But my reasoning is exactly what you criticize. I haven't seen any NFL practices, I haven't seen any NFL snaps, no preseason games. I think that Henne will eventually be a good NFL QB. He hasn't shown (like Beck has) that he can't take NFL snaps, or that he will play small. I guess I am betting on the Devil I don't know vs the Devil I do. Sorry you find that arrogant.
I agree with your last statement. We just "MIGHT" have a winner. Then again, just as likely, we might not.