[Merged] Henne and Offense | Dolphins tried trading up for Mallett

So then why even use high draft picks at all then? Why not stick em in a trophy case where you can appreciate them forever? Is it better to use them on an unproven college player whom you're hoping will end up like a vet you could have for the same pick? Giving 2 2nds for one of the best receivers in the league is a bargain when considering Atlanta was so desperate for one they used 2 1sts, a 2nd, and 2 4ths.

If you gave back those 2nds, you'd still have to use one of them to replace Marshall, and even then you're not guaranteed to get the kind of player you want out of it, not to mention the lengthy time it can take to impact. Wasn't it you, yourself, who said drafting receivers high is risky? I'd think you of all people would be a advocate of using a pick or picks on a veteran to ensure getting someone who's already proven himself.

 

IMO it's safe to say that it wasn't a priority last offseason when we spent the whole draft on defense, signed an ILB, traded for a WR and got rid of our LG-C-RG.

We went all in on D, and we got instant results. No one had faith in Clemons, Wake or Soliai, and they all exceeded expectations. I know the end of the season left a bad taste, but the *****ing ang nay saying is at epic levels and it's not really justified. You'd think we were 3-13 from the way people talk around here.

 

The Pats gave up a 2nd for Dillion, and a 2nd for Welker also. Both went to the Pro-Bowl. Baltimore gave up a 2nd for Boldin. Philly gave up a 2nd for T.O., guess where they went that year? Atlanta gave up a 2nd for Gonzalez, then 3 1s, a 2 and a 4 for Julio Jones. Nawlins gave up a 2nd for Shockey.

Dallas gave a 1st for Roy Williams, OK bad example.

 

This seems like the theme of our fan base. As a collective we don't (me excluded) have the patience to wait for guys to develop, so they'd rather draft a replacement thinking falsely that the rookie will step in from day one and be the savior of the position. Then we end up wasting a 1st round pick on a guy we really didn't end up needing.

"oh, we have no pass rusher now that JT and JP are gone"; then Cam becomes a ProBowler like I predicted (yes, I'm tootin my horn). "Soliai wont amount to anything"; then he has a break out year on the verge of dominance like I also predicted (and yes, I'm tootin my horn for that, too). lol.

As you know, if you're trying to build a team the right way rather than going for a 1 year wonder, you need to do it through the draft..... which means taking the time to develop these guys along with the patience to do so. This fan base has no freakin patience. IMO it's the same reason we experienced a revolving door at QB since Marino retired.

 

Has nothing to do with the fact we have not brought in premium talent? I'm sorry, I wanted Henne to succeed, and if he is our opening day starter I really hope he turns things around and winds up in the pro-bowl, but he was not a premium talent.

Second round QBs are a wasteland of failure, and yet that is the only resources we have invested in the NFL's most important position. Hoping to strike gold with lower rated prospects or washed up vets. That, I feel, is far more responsible than any fan impatience.

 

come on now. im not gonna do the legwork but thats just a plain outlandish comment. The only guy i know off the top of my head is Drew Brees but we both know there are plenty of successful 2nd rounders (and many late rounders) starting and succeeding in the nfl. We're not the only team who hasn't drafted a QB in the top 10 in the past 10 years.

And there are just as many failures coming out of the first round, if not more. Again off the top of my head, JP losman, Alex Smith, Leftwich.

 

Dolphins gave up a 1st (#3 overall) for Paul Warfield....... that's probably a bad example, too.

 

Bucs gave up TWO 1sts for Keyshawn Johnson and subsequently helped them win a SB.
San Fran gave up a 1st for Jerry Rice. I think he helped win a few SBs.
49ers also gave up a 1st for Dwight Clark who helped them win 2 SBs.
Pitt used a 1st for Santonio Holmes-- SB MVP.
Pitt also gave up a 1st for Lynn Swann-- 4 SBs including SB MVP.
Indy gave up 1st rounders for Harrison, Wayne, and Clark to win a SB.
Indy also gave up a 1st for Eddie Hinton who helped them win their first SB.
Giants gave up a 1st for a receiving TE, Shockey, who helped them get to a SB.
Rams gave up a 1st for Torry Holt who helped them win a SB.
Dallas giving up a 1st for Michael Irvin didn't seem to hurt their 3 SB wins.
Redskins didn't seem hurt by giving up a 1st for Art Monk during 3 of their SB wins either.
Giants gave up a 1st for Mark Ingram who helped them win SB including a huge performance during their game winning drive.
Bears gave up a 1st for Willie Gault who helped them win a SB with 4 catches for 129 yards.

That's a lot of 1st round receivers helping teams win SBs. All I'm sayin.

 

It has to do with the fact that we went for a quick fix for years rather than developing a young QB like most successful long term teams do. I didn't know Henne's been on this teams since Marino retired?

Brett Favre? Drew Brees? Boomer Esiason? Ken Stabler? Randall Cunningham? Neil Lomax? Ron Jaworski?------ Total wasteland of failure.

All these lower rated prospects like Montana, Unitas, Brady, Fouts, Curt Warner, Staubach, Starr, Tarkenton, Theismann, Ken Anderson, Dave Krieg, Sonny Jurgenson, and Mark Brunnell were all embarrassments to their organization I tell ya.


A 2nd round QB is not a lower rated prospect. Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/23qb/23qbs.php

You may want to do the legwork then, the statement will seem much less outlandish. Since 2000, only Brees and Matt Schaub have have any kind of lasting impact on their teams, neither with the teams that originally drafted them. Brees was essentially a first rounder anyway. Add Jake Plummer in 97 (also achieved greatest success not with the team that drafted him) and that is it in the last 2 decades.

Waste.
Land.

No doubt first rounders have also struggled, except lately. The last major bust year was '07 with Russell and Quinn. Since then QBs have been about 100% depending on what happens with Tebow. If you want a QB, the best bet is to draft in the first round.

 

See above.

Sure you can get lucky, but I'm not sure if "draft a low round prospect and pray" is a great strategy. The premium talent is in the first round.

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/...ap-analysis-ryan-mallett-charlie-sheen-050211

 

I just noticed---- Henne is 217th on the NFL's all time yardage list.

 

lol @ 2nd round QBs are now considered low round prospects.

So tell me again how you felt about 3rd round Ryan Mallett prior to the draft?

During the past dozen years, over half the 1st round QBs have busted. Missing on a 1st round pick can set teams back a few years. You don't just take a 1st round QB to take one. There are 3 elite, HOF QBs in the game right now--- Manning, Brady, and Brees. Only 1 of those was a first rounder.

And please stop this stuff about "basically first rounder"; 2nd rounder is 2nd rounder. It means EVERY team had a chance to take the guy at least once.

If you want to throw a first rounder at a QB, you better be prepared for it to take him 3+ years to get where you can rely on him to win you a superbowl. Do you really want to throw Henne away this prematurely only to start this process ALL OVER AGAIN while our team is close to contending?

 

You don't have to look any further than this years draft. The run on the upper echelon Qbs was in the top 10 draft picks, people thought at best there would be 2 or 3 gone in the top 15, we probably did too. Look at how many teams trade up or reach for Qbs in the first round, I agree with you completely. You have to have the guts to be wrong. We've been a little unlucky in the way some drafts have gone down but we haven't made any aggressive moves to go after a Qb in the draft and we had a franchise Qb sitting there in Matt Ryan but went with the safe pick instead. I love Jake Long so that isn't an indictment of him, he's a great LT so its not like it was a terrible draft pick. We have just been approaching the team building process as though we can build a strong defense and offensive line (still waiting on that) and just insert a decent guy at Qb and win. The NFL is a passing league, you don't have a good Qb you aren't winning the Superbowl.

 

Sorry, perhaps low"er" round would have been better. I liked Ryan's skillset heading into the draft. Once Boom and Con pretty much confirmed we weren't interested I lost interest though. I pimped his skillset pre-draft, but yeah he did have some major questions. I think his draft position reflected it. Time will tell if he was a steal of if in 10 years we won't even remember who he is. I certainly wasn't married to the guy, and while I made a big fuss about the move up for Thomas, I was not in the least bit upset that it wasn't for Mallett, I just didn't want to lose the picks.

Half the first rounders have busted? Sure, happens at quite a few positions like WR and DL too. The other half of the QBs are generally competing in the playoffs though. Might missing a QB set you back more than say, missing on a DT? Yeah one could make a pretty convincing argument. But hitting on a QB? That will propel you forward more than that DT as well. You want to be successful in this league, you get a QB. First rounders ARE the premium talents, like it or not, and denying such is just being stubborn for the sake of Henne. If you want a QB, it is the most logical starting point. Sometimes a lat"er" round pick pans out. Grats someone found a gem. Is that good strategy? I don't think so. It hasn't been working well for us lately.

Don't "take one just to take one?" What in the hell are you even talking about? Of course you don't do that. Did you see Yates or Stanzi going in round 1? No.

Chances are if you are drafting a guy in the first round, you are fairly confident he is "your guy" - the guy who can lead your team and get you moving forward. Once you start getting to round 2 and teams get second shots at guys, that is when you see the premium talent gone and the next tier stepping in - the Henne's, Brohms, etc. If someone is "your guy" you don't give teams an extra shot to draft them, you go the hell get them.

Again, I never said you can't find QB's elsewhere, I only said the best place to look is round 1. If Bledsoe never gets hurt, god only knows what would have come of Brady. Do you really think when Bellicheck drafted Brady he had any vision of what he would do? Brees never flourished until he was sent to another team. But Manning was about as sure fire a pick as one could have made and the Colts have reaped the dividends for years now. Did the Chargers grab Leaf who some also thought was a pretty good pick? Yeah they did, and it didn't work. What did they do? They tried again, and again, and now please I beg you to tell me you wouldn't take Rivers over Henne. Get your QB, and draft until you find him.

Would I be willing to toss away Henne at this point and start ALL OVER AGAIN. Hell yes. Look, I get you are in love with the guy, and there is nothing wrong with that. This is America, just be careful in some parts.

I believe that we will not seriously contend until we have the QB position settled, and I am more than willing to risk the short term for the long term in that regard. I do not think Henne is the answer, simple as that, and if you don't have the answer, you find it.

 

Ding ding ding! A winner is you!

 

I don't think its *****ing to be critical of this organization not being able to build an offensive line after 3 seasons, especially since its our entire offensive identity. Its one thing if you are a team with Mike Martz as your offensive coordinator but we are simply a power running team that hasn't been able to run consistently for 3 years, I don't think its *****ing to point that out. This team has been a disappointment whether its been 3-13 or not because we can't do the simple things that this team was built (supposedly) to do on offense despite a lot of draft picks and money.

Look at the great teams, they have an identity, a system and they always find new guys, we have our system and identity in theory but in practice its a huge disappointment. Hopefully that changes but to be here entering year 4 of this regime with a big question mark as our Qb, questions on our offensive line, our offense needing big play from three rookies to score isn't inspiring me with a lot of confidence. Add in that our owner tried to replace the coach and it really isn't *****ing to have a lot of questions about the team.

 

upper echelon? Just because they were drafted high this year does not make them upper echelon. There were 4 drafted in the top 12 in 1999. Tell me how those guys turned out. Having guts is not how you draft. That's akin to being desperate, reaching, or taking a guy who doesn't fit your system. That's how you end up in the 50+ percent category of taking QBs who bust. If you don't take our word for it, then listen to the guys on ESPN recapping the draft (McShay, Kiper, Bruschi, and Edwards).

Here we go AGAIN about the safe pick. When will people realize that you need a system in place and a way to protect your QB before you draft a guy #1 who's inevitably fed to the wolves. Do I need to give a list of all the #1 pick QBs who have failed because they were getting the snot beat out of them every game? Matt Ryan is the currently successful Matt Ryan because Atlanta built a team around him, gave him weapons to aid his development, and put him in the position to succeed. If you think Ryan comes in here, under these circumstances, with Henning & Lee and succeeds in the same way, then you're in for a rude awakening. There is no predetermined destiny here. QBs succeed and fail all the time based on the talent, coaching, and system around them.\

I like how you refer to "this year's draft" of 1st round QBs as if they've already proven themselves in the NFL. Let's see how their doing next year or in 3 years before you go anointing them anything.

 

Do you realize how drafts actually work and what it means when guys are drafted in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds etc? A QB drafted in the 2nd round does NOT necessarily mean he has 2nd round talent. Henne was given a 1st or borderline 1st round grade by virtually everyone. Normally a talented QB will go in the first round because he's more "NFL ready". However, if he's less NFL ready he could be drafted later (except for the 2011 draft) because it could take him longer to reach the same level of success. Henne wasn't drafted in the 2nd round because he lacked talent; he was drafted there because there were parts of his game that needed developing and/or refining. That's why it's ridiculous to give up on him after his 2nd year starting. Matt Ryan was expected to make a quicker impact because he was a 5th year senior coming from a pro style offense and subsequently was more NFL ready.

All of these 1st round guys you mentioned from this draft are just as far away from being successful as Henne was in 2008; only difference is they were over-drafted out of desperation where as Henne wasn't. You don't think Brian Brohm would've gone in the 1st round this year with all these teams desperate for QBs (especially with the lockout and FA implications) after Brian was regarded as a potential top 15 pick in 2008?

said the guy who wanted to take 3rd round Mallett at #15.

well, at least you'd get your top 5 QB to ruin every year with that approach. Wow, so 3+ years is "short term" to you?

 

I haven't anointed anyone, I don't know where you get that from. By saying the upper echelon Qb prospects were taken in the top 10 its just stating that the Qbs slated to go in the 1st round went early. It highlights the point that teams will reach if they have to and that great Qb prospects very rarely drop out of the 1st round. Teams take chances, trade multiple picks and do what they have to get their franchise Qb. I admire Tenn and Minnesota even if they wind up wrong at least they took a shot. Qb's go early and often and they are hard to find late in the draft, unless you are looking for a backup.

I don't buy the argument about Ryan, if our coaching staff can't coach up an obvious franchise Qb then they should be fired...immediately. We didn't take him because he wasn't a sure thing and we didn't have the guts to risk the pick. Qbs are boom and bust, sooner or later you have to take a swing at one early to get a franchise guy. Look at Detroit and St Louis, they've been successful without a complete offense built around their new franchise Qbs, they still have holes on offense but they went for the franchise guy because its the most important position on the field and its much easier to fill holes on the oline and rb, wr positions via free agency and trade.

I have never said the 1st round qbs have proven anything, in fact I really didn't want any Qb in this draft but Mallet but I don't know what the front offices know about Mallet so I can't really blame our front office for taking a pass early.

 

Detroit and St Louis have been successful?

I guess Miami has been successful under Henne too then.

 

reaching for a 2nd round QB in the 1st round does not make him a first round/franchise caliber player who's NFL ready. Teams would've likely reached for Henne in the first round this draft if he were in it.

cough cough. Lee & Henning? You were saying? Do we need to revisit the 4 QBs who seemed to regress under this regime? How much playing time is Stafford seeing after being drafted by a team that couldn't protect him? And you wanted us to draft Ryan and experience the same thing? lol @ that.

and for all the fan base talk about "Mallett is the answer", you guys were wrong, no offense. It's not "what our front office knows", it's what every front office knows about him and what some members here like Rafael have been saying for months.

Finding an answer at QB isn't as easy as people want to make it out to seem. You don't just draft one in the first round and ,voila, you have yourself a QB. Half of those 1st rounders bust, and roughly half of the ones who don't bust turn out to be nothing more than average. Only a small percentage become elite. That's why if you have a guy like Henne who clearly has talent, you make sure you know what you do or don't have before moving on because there's a good possibility the position can become worse with his replacement no matter what round he's drafted in.

Fans should be happy that we have a guy with the potential to become a top 12 QB. That's a good thing, not a set back to the franchise. We should be backing him and encouraging him to reach his potential, not scapegoating him and bashing him at every opportunity. I'm almost to the point where I feel this fan base doesn't deserve a quality QB because it'll never appreciate him anyways. "If he's not the second coming of Marino he ain't s***" is the perceived motto of this fan base. It's f****** ridiculous.

After hearing what our fans were saying about Henne at Green Bay, I'm almost embarrassed to call myself a Dolphin fan.

 

I have to admit I don't understand the notion of not taking a franchise Qb because of the coaching staff, that argument is just idiotic to be frank, its not even worth discussing. If our coaching staff can't coach then they need to be fired....yesterday, thats basically a coach's job ....to coach.

I haven't seen Mallet play so calling him a bust or saying we never should have taken him before he takes a snap is silly. Even more so considering the best team builder in the past decade or two took him in the 3rd when his team doesn't even need a backup Qb. Read his thoughts on Mallet, they are very interesting.

I have been supportive of Henne throughout last season, same with our entire coaching staff. I've never been one of those fans that wants to throw a guy under the bus because he's not Marino. I can't stand it when people bring that up, as though every fan is really that dumb to think we have to have the greatest Qb of all time to win games. Talk about putting words in someone's mouth.

 

They've been successful finding their franchise Qbs, its a good start.

 

Ok, this I agree with, but I don't feel they've been successful teams yet.

 

No but you have to feel good about their direction if you're a fan of either team. Honestly we haven't had our Qb situation fixed for more than the season with Pennington so its hard to not focus on the position.