[Merged] Dolphins and County agree on framework for stadium deal...

He could, and he is. Its not a normal loan per se. Keep in mind that Stephen Ross has had development deals much larger and more complicated. This is his wheelhouse.

 

Why doesn't Ross just do it himself ? Again to emphasize he is the 83rd richest individual in the US - out of 325,000,000 people. Why is it so important for him to get public money ?

I wonder if he is one of the conservatives who are against public money for public assistance for poorer people ? Yet he wants welfare for a billionaire.

You do know this is the kind of behavior that led to a revolution in France, where the top 3 estates (Royalty, nobility and the Church) paid no taxes and the entire tax burden was placed on the peasantry ?

 

It was, the numbers don't lie, if you get the balloon payments schedule you will see.

 

Isn't it silly to think that if Ross is considering the draft plan as a potential deal breaker for this, that he hasn't already gotten Ireland's draft plan?

 

For private businesses there is a boon, but not to the county itself. There are added costs, such as more police & security involvement and those costs. Just alone those add up to millions, and that is just one aspect.

 

Not to get into a political discussion, but yes, Ross was a big time vocal Romney supporter, and in fact he was present at the event in Boca where Romney made his infamous 47% remarks. So, that should answer your question.

 

Mike Wallace was two months ago. Hell, within a WEEK of signing Wallace, the public were already back to their default "What the hell are the Dolphins doing?!?" stance.

This vote is going to happen right on the heels of the NFL Draft. Two weeks after it. Can they afford a draft strategy that would send the public into a negative feedback loop about how the Dolphins are just doing "more of the same"?

Remember, they've already built up the negative sentiment over a period of 10 years. They don't have to poke the ground very hard or very deep to get a gusher going.

You take a D.J. Fluker, rated as a late-1st round pick, a classic "big fat guy"...what does that do to fan sentiment and the news cycle?

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Roger Goodell sent down a directive to the people on the NFL Network that no matter what the Dolphins do, they have to praise the ever loving hell out of it.

 

I realize this, but I'm saying it's a lot more complicated than people are making out. It's not like just going into a bank and getting a low interest rate loan.

 

No. Many teams don't even have their draft plan settled yet. Even the team picking #1 overall doesn't have their plan settled yet.

 

Economic growth for private businesses equals benefit for the county. Increased employment being the primary one. If a hotel has to hire 5 new people because the SB is coming to town, those are 5 new residents paying taxes, and not potentially not receiving government assistance.

Certainly there are many examples of the economic growth not being worth the subsidy. Miami was never going to make back their $600M on the Marlins stadium. Miami absolutely could make back $100M on a renovation that brings Super Bowls to Miami.

The problem is that everyone wants to paint this as just another billionaire on welfare. This is a case of a deal that is beneficial for all parties involved IMO. If there was ever a subsidy that was justified, this is it.

 

The Dolphins will be securing private financing for the project. The tax revenue is creating an income stream to be used as collateral.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/04/09/3329610/miami-dolphins-miami-dade-deal.html#storylink=cpy
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I don't disagree with you and I really don't want a "big fat guy" referrendum or no refferendum. If Lane Johnson falls, fine. But if not stay right where you are and take Austin, Rhodes or Eifert. Any of the 3 I think would get people excited

 

This is what I'm talking about! Ross is putting the money upfront, while Miami provides subsidies over 30 years. This is really a homerun for Miami.

 

it's hyperbole to fool fools......

 

You're insinuating that the 87th richest businessman in the world is shrewd enough to realize the draft could sink his multi-million dollar plan, but wouldn't have made sure his employee has the plan finalized yet....a mere two weeks away from the draft? That really doesn't seem absurd to you?

 

Could very well be the case. Politics is very fluid. The plans could change up until the very day of the draft.

 

Or its more likely that the draft isn't really a part of this.

I need some rational explanation as to why if Ross thought the draft would be a deal breaker, that he wouldn't have had Ireland finalize the draft plan with 2 weeks to go...and your politics is fluid answer is not really an answer.

 

And if a team wants to move, they can move, agreement or not. If Ross or a new owner, wants to move they move and then the county does what ? Take them to court ? Any kind of litigation would be tied up in court for years. In the meantime, the Dolphins operate in some other location for years and years.

Silly people that truly believe this can be enforced. Its nothing but show to fool silly people.

 

The maximum benefit though is still going to Ross, via the increase in value of his assets ( the team and the stadium). Miami is a unique destination in that we don't need the Super Bowl to attract tourists. Yeah, the Super Bowl is a big deal for Indianapolis or Houston. Not as much for us or New Orelans.

San Diego is a perfect example of this. They have yet to build the Chargers a new stadium and haven't gotten a super Bowl in awhile despite it being a great location for it. The city has survived. It's still a major tourist destination and the Chargers, depsite eyars of threats, have yet to move. The city called their bluff, and it's a bluff that more cities should start calling because outside of LA there aren't that many viable NFL markets. And the LA Live/AEG deal basically fell apart in the last few weeks and there is no stomach in California for that deal.

The NFL needs larger markets than basketball or hockey, where you are only trying to fill a 18,000 seat arena. It's why Sacramento is a (barely) viable NBA market but the NFL would scoff at ever going to such a place. In fact, the current Seattle/Sacramento drama that's unfolding is constructive for anybody who is interested in these issues. Essentially, Sacramento has given away most of their prime downtown real estate in order to entice these "whales" to try to buy the Kings and the city is building the arena. Kevin Johnson has staked his entire political future on keeping the Kings, as if Sacramento has no other issues.

 

100 % in agreement with this.

 

The issue with this agreement is that it's not even a lease since Ross owns the stadium. Depends on the penalties invovled which would tell you how easy or difficult it would be to break.

 

But in those cities the county/city OWNS the stadium, this is not the case here. That stadium is 100% totally the property of Steven Ross. In those cities they get a share or maybe even 100% of the concessions, parking etc, monies.

 

Why are you being so aggressive and interrogative/accusational about this?

I'm asking questions and posing theories. Slow your roll.

 

That was honestly not my intention. If that's how it came across I apologize.

Your stance still doesn't make sense to me, however.

 

Whom receives the maximum benefit shouldn't be the concern. The concern for Miami should be whether their benefit will be larger than their cost. Ross getting the most benefit doesn't mean Miami isn't getting a large benefit as well.

IIRC, you posted some research that argued the economic benefit from SBs was a fraction of what the NFL claimed to be. But even that study claimed that a SB was creating $50-$100M for the local economy. When you weigh that against what ultimately will be around a $100M-$150M subsidy, it seems like a very good deal for Miami. I'm not so sure what San Diego needed to do for their stadium. If you're talking about $500M+ up front, that will require heavy debt-servicing, then thats probably not a good deal for a city. That isn't what Miami is being asked to do though.

 

Correct, and how much did those cities put up? We aren't talking about Miami putting up large sums upfront, paying interest, etc. We are talking about incremental subsidies over a 30 year period for much less than what most cities pay. I think when you flesh out the math behind the plan, it is beneficial for Miami.

 

I did post the studies and I want to see more details of this plan. While this plan might not be as bad as most stadium deals, that doesn't change my philosophical position on stadium deals in general.

Here, the county is raising a tax, the could be used for anything if the legislature approved, being levied to fund a stadium upgrade for a privately owned and operated facility. We are doing this for the supposed economic impact of 4 Super Bowls over 30 years. Games by the way, which we haven't actually been denied yet.

 

https://twitter.com/ArmandoSalguero

 

https://twitter.com/ArmandoSalguero

 

Look this deal is predicated on fear by Ross. He is afraid of losing Super Bowls, and NCAA Championships period.

He's getting pressured by Goodell and the owners to not set a precedent of no public financing. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when this doesn't pass (and all polls say it will fail by an overwhelming majority of registered voters). Because no one stands to benefit like Ross from this renovation.

Super Bowls, NCAA Championship games and future World Cups & other soccer events. All are at play and if these renovations don't happen, its Ross that is the big loser. So it's in his interest to do it no matter what. That's why the public should just say NO. There is no reason for us to be involved and put our money at risk.

 

Do you have a link to these polls? What is the expected voter turnout in Miami in mid-May?

 

They have the same agreement with Loria. He sells for the next 3 years he incurs penalties from the profits of selling the team.

Now Ross paid $ 1.1 billion in 2008, right ? With inflation and depreciation etc, unless he sells for $ 1.4 or 1.5 billion he doesn't come out even anyways. Do you seriously see someone buying them ? I don't.

Ross needs those improvements more than we need to do them for him. Ross needs them even without Super Bowls in order to get those NCAA Championship games & soccer events. They alone will repay his investment. So let him do it himself.

 

I wonder if Steve Ross might have more luck with the public if he changed one of those two stipulations that Armando Salguero talked about.

1. The Miami Dolphins are forced to stay in Miami for 30 years.

2. Steve Ross must promise to SELL the team to someone else within the next 5 years.

 

I think Ross could easily see 1.5 billion if he sold the team. If not more.

 

At my expense, didn't you read that in my scenario its ME that is paying that tax. I have to stay somewhere for one night its a tax on my money that I deem unncessary.

 

OK, I'm not trying to put forth any arguments. But I have a question.

Let's say someone comes forward and says I really don't care what's been done in other cities as far as what kinds of deals other billionaire owners got, etc. I don't want any more welfare for billionaires. This is $200 million of tax payer money that will go into billionaire Steve Ross' pockets, one way or another...and, one way or another, this is coming out of taxpayer pockets. Whether that's local Miami inner city tax payer pockets or what, does it really matter? We're not just a city, we're not just a state, we're a nation of tax payers.

If someone were to put forward that argument, what's the counter? Why should that person change their mind?

 

Really ? How does the stadium increase tourism outside of a few days surrounding the Super Bowl, which is held at a time of the year when occupancy is already at its highest measure ? Do you seriously think that stadium increases by a measurable amount of people coming here to be worth the risk by the local residents on increasing a tax ? You still can't give me a reason to make it worth the risk to help Ross out of using public funds on a private enterprise.

 

I'm confident the early polls saying its somewhere between 75-80% against will not change enough to get it to pass.

And so Ross is going to spend a few million to try to change voters minds on this instead of saving money to help the stadium renovation for his PRIVATE PROPERTY ?

SMH

 

Armando Salguero ‏@ArmandoSalguero Interesting to me: Of the proposed 1 cent tourist tax increase, Dolphins would get 75% or $7.5M per year while county gets $25%.


Armando Salguero ‏@ArmandoSalguero Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Gimenez: "We're not on the hook for anything."

 

and this means that legislators from Live Oak, and Pensacola will have a say in this. What incentive do that have to make sure this happens for Miami ? Especially if they are representing Tampa. That Super Bowl that goes to Miami could have been in their district in Tampa helping their owner & businesses......