[Merged] Dolphins and County agree on framework for stadium deal...
275 replies
CANEPHINSforum_veteranOPMiami voters are one step closer this morning to getting the chance to weigh in on whether their tax dollars should go toward another big-ticket stadium project. Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Giminez announced that the city and the Miami Dolphins have agreed on a basic "framework" for a deal that would use county funds to help cover part of the cost of a Sun Life Stadium renovation.
"I think we have a framework for an agreement," Gimenez told the Miami Herald this morning. The County Commission could vote Wednesday on whether to give voters a chance to give the deal a thumbs-up or down.
CANEPHINSforum_veteranYep, and now it will come down to the vote. It has to happen.
SumlitNew MemberI hate when people continue to say things like "Miami voters..the chance to weigh in on whether their tax dollars...."
It is not the voters tax dollars. It's bull**** like this that give people inaccurate or erroneous information and then they make poor decisions based on that inaccurate or erroneous information.
djphinfansubscriberSilly question time..if the citizen vote is against passing it, is that it?, nothing else matters?, and if so, why did we decide to put the fate in such an important economical decision for this city in people's hands who don't have a clue?
schmoliootsubscriber"djphinfan wrote:
Silly question time..if the citizen vote is against passing it, is that it?, nothing else matters?, and if so, why did we decide to put the fate in such an important economical decision for this city in people's hands who don't have a clue?
You have got to be kidding me with this statement. Beyond the fact that people should have some say as to how their tax dollars get spent, this is going to referrendum because it wouldn't get passed any other way. The county and state showed no interest in this project prior to the referrendum being announced.
The reason for that is that it's completely politically toxic otherwise. Gimenez and most of the county commissioners only have their jobs because they opposed the Marlins stadium deal.
SumlitNew Member"schmolioot wrote:
You have got to be kidding me with this statement. Beyond the fact that people should have some say as to how their tax dollars get spent, this is going to referrendum because it wouldn't get passed any other way. The county and state showed no interest in this project prior to the referrendum being announced.
The reason for that is that it's completely politically toxic otherwise. Gimenez and most of the county commissioners only have their jobs because they opposed the Marlins stadium deal.
Except it isn't their tax dollars.
schmoliootsubscriber"Sumlit wrote:
I hate when people continue to say things like "Miami voters..the chance to weigh in on whether their tax dollars...."
It is not the voters tax dollars. It's bull**** like this that give people inaccurate or erroneous information and then they make poor decisions based on that inaccurate or erroneous information.
It is their tax dollars. Sure, tourists are ultimately paying for it, but then it belings to the county who is supposed to sue it for the highest and best use.
And I'm still waiting to see what voodoo mumbo jumbo Gimenez puts into this deal that will somehow allow the county to raise over $200 million without taking out a loan or dipping into the general fund. Unless of course they can somehow buold this thing without cash and the contractors and workers are accepting a barter arrangement
schmoliootsubscriber"Sumlit wrote:
Except it isn't their tax dollars.
Any tax the government collects is "your money".
In our system you elect people who are supposed to use that money for the general welfare. Too often they don't.
SumlitNew Member"schmolioot wrote:
It is their tax dollars. Sure, tourists are ultimately paying for it, but then it belings to the county who is supposed to sue it for the highest and best use.
And I'm still waiting to see what voodoo mumbo jumbo Gimenez puts into this deal that will somehow allow the county to raise over $200 million without taking out a loan or dipping into the general fund. Unless of course they can somehow buold this thing without cash and the contractors and workers are accepting a barter arrangement
The money comes from tourism, not from taxes against Miami residents. The fact that it belongs to the county, does not erase the fact that residents do not pay for it.
The county is supposed to use it for the highest and best use, but it can only be used for these types of public works. Constructing and bettering sporting facilities in our city is the highest and best of uses.
SumlitNew Member"schmolioot wrote:
Any tax the government collects is "your money".
In our system you elect people who are supposed to use that money for the general welfare. Too often they don't.
As i said, the fact that it belongs to the county does not erase the fact that it is not being taken from the pockets of residents. This money is allocated for precisely these types of works.
SumlitNew MemberAlso, i'm speaking mainly on how it sounds when people say "Miami voters get to weigh in on whether their tax dollars are to be used". When people say things like that, the automatic rationale of the average voter is to think "hey, they're going to use the money they take from my pockets to remodel a stadium" when in fact that is not accurate.
Stringer BellsubscriberThe closer this gets, the more confidence I have in it being passed. Very little vocal opposition from what I can tell.
“Come on, shake your body baby, do that conga!”
Hellionsubscriber"Sumlit wrote:
The money comes from tourism, not from taxes against Miami residents. The fact that it belongs to the county, does not erase the fact that residents do not pay for it.
The county is supposed to use it for the highest and best use, but it can only be used for these types of public works. Constructing and bettering sporting facilities in our city is the highest and best of uses.
So are they looking at taking the entire hotel tax or raising the tax and only taking the percent the was raised?
Stringer Bellsubscriber"schmolioot wrote:
It is their tax dollars. Sure, tourists are ultimately paying for it, but then it belings to the county who is supposed to sue it for the highest and best use.
And I'm still waiting to see what voodoo mumbo jumbo Gimenez puts into this deal that will somehow allow the county to raise over $200 million without taking out a loan or dipping into the general fund. Unless of course they can somehow buold this thing without cash and the contractors and workers are accepting a barter arrangement
The county isn't making a $200M outlay. A lot of their contribution will be through $3M worth of sales tax rebates for 30 years, or something to that affect.
“Come on, shake your body baby, do that conga!”
SumlitNew Member"Hellion wrote:
So are they looking at taking the entire hotel tax or raising the tax and only taking the percent the was raised?
I believe they will raise the hotel tax a small amount, and then borrow against those future earnings to finance this deal now. It then becomes incumbent on our elected officials to not screw up and do the accounting correctly and craft a deal that does not hurt the residents in the future.
gafinfansubscriber"Sumlit wrote:
I hate when people continue to say things like "Miami voters..the chance to weigh in on whether their tax dollars...."
It is not the voters tax dollars. It's bull**** like this that give people inaccurate or erroneous information and then they make poor decisions based on that inaccurate or erroneous information.
Sorry but you're wrong. They may not be paying those taxes but the taxes are generated there to be spent at the pleasure of the people who live there. They dang sure should have their say.
This is the only thing I’ve learned: There’s only us. There’s no them. Despots and authoritarians need to make a “them” to have a straw man whom you are against. If you need to make an enemy of “them,” you’ve lost the spirit of us. - Ken Burns of PBS
SumlitNew Member"gafinfan wrote:
Sorry but you're wrong. They may not be paying those taxes but the taxes are generated there to be spent at the pleasure of the people who live there. They dang sure should have their say.
Sorry but you are misquoting me. I never said they had no say in how the money is spent. My complaint is how this type of thing is always worded to imply that the money comes from taxes payed by residents. They should use better wording to avoid misinformation.
SumlitNew Member"Hurricane wrote:
With your proposal, either the hotels (one of the largest collective employers) have to take a loss (probably inducing layoffs, wage freezes) or increase their rental rates, which curbs tourism...
You're digging deeper and deeper.
Any revenue that is accrued through taxation, regardless of source, is money for that jurisdiction--the people's money. If the people decide that they'd rather have that money spent on infrastructure, or any other number of areas, it's their right as citizens to decide that.
In all honesty, even though it's a better deal than the Marlins gave them, there's very little incentive for the people to vote for this, IMO. There is little to no correlation between stadium renovation and increased revenue for the team and/or city.
Again, i am not questioning whether the voters have a right to vote or not. That was not my complaint.
Also, the economic ramifications of the deal are a valid argument too. That was also not my complaint.
smahtazforum_veteran"Hurricane wrote:
With your proposal, either the hotels (one of the largest collective employers) have to take a loss (probably inducing layoffs, wage freezes) or increase their rental rates, which curbs tourism...
You're digging deeper and deeper.
Any revenue that is accrued through taxation, regardless of source, is money for that jurisdiction--the people's money. If the people decide that they'd rather have that money spent on infrastructure, or any other number of areas, it's their right as citizens to decide that.
In all honesty, even though it's a better deal than the Marlins gave them, there's very little incentive for the people to vote for this, IMO. There is little to no correlation between stadium renovation and increased revenue for the team and/or city.
This tax revenue can't be used for any other purpose. If the referendum fails, there is no tax.
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. ~ John Wooden
vt_dolfansubscriberSince I dont live in S. Fl....what is they climate in Dade County..for this? I just....cant believe Miami wont back this. The Dolphins are part of Miami. Its gotta get done.....right?
"The more difficult the victory, the greater the happiness in winning"
Pele
Stringer Bellsubscriber"Hurricane wrote:
With your proposal, either the hotels (one of the largest collective employers) have to take a loss (probably inducing layoffs, wage freezes) or increase their rental rates, which curbs tourism...
You're digging deeper and deeper.
Any revenue that is accrued through taxation, regardless of source, is money for that jurisdiction--the people's money. If the people decide that they'd rather have that money spent on infrastructure, or any other number of areas, it's their right as citizens to decide that.
In all honesty, even though it's a better deal than the Marlins gave them, there's very little incentive for the people to vote for this, IMO. There is little to no correlation between stadium renovation and increased revenue for the team and/or city.
This simply isn't true. The hotel industry supports the proposal.
“Come on, shake your body baby, do that conga!”
Stringer Bellsubscriber"Hurricane wrote:
Did I say that they didn't? :lol:
The implication was that the tax would be detrimental to the industry. Why would they support it then?
“Come on, shake your body baby, do that conga!”
djphinfansubscriber"schmolioot wrote:
You have got to be kidding me with this statement. Beyond the fact that people should have some say as to how their tax dollars get spent, this is going to referrendum because it wouldn't get passed any other way. The county and state showed no interest in this project prior to the referrendum being announced.
The reason for that is that it's completely politically toxic otherwise. Gimenez and most of the county commissioners only have their jobs because they opposed the Marlins stadium deal.
listen man, I don't pretend to know how all this sh&$ works, and from the looks of it, we can't even decide as a group who's paying for what, whats allocated to who, so, whatever it is, I just don't agree with letting the public, where some don't understand the impact of a professional team to its community, and whom others don't give a rats ass about it, having them them vote on its importance from a national perspective and it's economic impact to the city, makes no sense to my lamen ass, especially when it's not coming out of their pockets, and, it's been approved by the hotel committee..
MikeHonchosubscriber"djphinfan wrote:
Silly question time..if the citizen vote is against passing it, is that it?, nothing else matters?, and if so, why did we decide to put the fate in such an important economical decision for this city in people's hands who don't have a clue?
Not sure if serious.
Headcoach material wouldn’t want to work somewhere they’re not trusted with actual football decisions.
MikeHonchosubscriberLet's just pray that history doesn't repeat itself.
...the Marlins stadium has been a disaster and Mami-Dade county taxpayers are getting hosed like nobody before them.
For starers, the stadium’s financing scheme means there will be some $3 billion in interest expenses on the construction loans that will be paid by city and county taxpayers. Worse for taxpayers there is no incentive for Loria to put a good team on the field because the city and county must pay the bondholders regardless of how the team performs. Moreover, a small but quirky part of the bond financing has turned a $91 million loan into a $1.2 billion liability for taxpayers.The Marlins stadium is looking like the worst shellacking taxpayers have ever gotten from a baseball stadium.
Headcoach material wouldn’t want to work somewhere they’re not trusted with actual football decisions.
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