Merged: Ahahaha. Once a cheat, always a cheat / DeflateGate

You're arguing against most rules now. Why not just make oline wear sleeves over their hands so's there's no holding?

The rule is the rule. It wasn't obscure. It wasn't a surprise. All the teams knew what the rule was. Whether you think it was stupid or not, is irrelevant. The rule was there, the Pats broke it. End of story.

 

"This is a league that fines Marshawn Lynch 100 grand for refusing to talk to mooks like me. It won’t let him wear gold cleats. But the most basic element of the game, the ball, gets treated like something that gets shot out of a cannon at halftime as a souvenir. In every game, the balls the kickers use are under league supervision every moment. This could easily be done with all the game balls. But, instead, each team is allowed to use footballs of its own choosing on offense. No other sport does anything remotely like this. (In one of history’s king ironies, this ridiculous system is the result of a petition circulated in 2006 by a number of NFL quarterbacks, chief among them Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.) This obviously leaves a loophole for chicanery through which Vince Wilfork could run with daylight on either side of him. Further, would it really put a dent in the NFL’s budget to hire actual ball-security experts who get paid by the league, instead of enlisting the defensive backfield of whatever high school football team is closest to the stadium?"


I know Simmons isn't much loved but this quote from an article on the whole issue points out two things:

1 - The league needs to change the rules on the supply and care of balls (soooooo stupid to let teams supply their own game balls)
2 - A reminder that the 2007 rule change to let teams supply their own balls came about in large part due to petitions by quarterbacks. - That historical fact renders indefensible any talk about the condition and inflation of the ball not being important. It is. It was important enough for quarterbacks to want to have control, especially for Brady who was a part of the petition. (Here's a USA Today piece on that.)


In the interests of fair review though - Here's a different USA Today video with a professor demonstrating a 1.3 PSI deflation due to temperature change.

 

It's not the end of the story. I like how you want to act like your opinion is the be-all-end-all of it. The rule simply states what the balls have to be at the beginning of the game. Now, it may have been an oversight of the league in creating the rule, I'll agree with that. However, as it stands, I don't think there is any action that the teams can take to readjust the PSI during the game, and there is nothing that says that they have to take measure to prevent nature deflating the balls. Do you really want teams adjusting PSI throughout the game? Teams adjusting PSI up, to account for deflated balls, or letting air out to account for balls that increase in PSI due to very hot weather. I would think that allowing teams to adjust PSI during games would open the door to more cheating.

I think the NFL just needs to set parameters for how balls are stored during games.

 

THANK YOU!! At least I'm not the only crazy one.

 

Yes you would have to be careful. I agree with you. But on the downside if one of the balls ended up too flat you could just say the damn thing popped or something and then the officials would just tell you to replace it with an approved football. Much can be blamed on equipment malfunction. The only reason we're into this whole investigation thing is because other owners have been pressuring Goodell on this particular issue for a while now, and that might not be something the Patriots were privy to (else they'd have covered their asses better).

Or maybe they were privy to it and they just are that brazen. Spygate happened pretty much exactly that way. They were warned, very specifically. And they did it anyway.

 

I doubt I would even need to practice on more than one ball. I'd just stick my thumb on the open end of the needle so as to prevent air from escaping uncontrollably and immediately once I pierced the ball. Then I'd let my thumb up for half a second or a second. Then I'd put my thumb back on and remove the needle. Whole thing would take maybe 3 seconds.

 

i get what your saying and for argument sake lets assume the colts ball did drop 1 psi how do you account for new englands balls dropping 2-3psi?

 

You don't, because that's not what's being said.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/nfl-bears-plenty-of-blame-for-deflategate/

 

I don't know what resnor is talking about because it's pretty clear the Colts balls did not deflate.

For him to suggest that the Colts balls were all coincidentally set at 13.5 psi while the Patriots balls were all coincidentally set at 12.5 psi and this is why NONE of the Colts balls deflated below the 12.5 minimum, is an exercise in mental hula hoops.

Nobody who actually proposes this should accuse someone else of being "obtuse".

There were Patriots balls that deflated to 10.5 psi. Yet NONE of the Colts balls tested below 12.5 psi. This is not explainable by the atmospheric conditions alone. Even Bill Belichick knows this and that is why he felt it necessary to explain that the Patriots balls deflated more than the Colts balls because of their (supposedly) unique prepping methods which involves ball boys rubbing the footballs vigorously, causing them to temporarily read higher psi than they should.

Belichick has NEVER been one to volunteer more information than is absolutely necessary. He included that bit about the vigorous rubbing and prepping because he knew he HAD to. So even though some people think the atmospheric conditions argument suffices as an excuse, even Belichick knows this is not the case. He knows he needs to explain why the Patriots balls deflated while the Colts balls did not.

 

So 11 of 12 Patriots footballs were between 10.5 and 11.5 psi at testing. AT LEAST one was 10.5 psi.

It is therefore literally impossible for the Colts footballs to have suffered the same deflationary effect and have tested 12 for 12 within the 12.5 to 13.5 psi range.

 

well, if they were inflated to 13.5 and dropped 1lb then they would be 12.5, so it is possible, but that was not the question that shula asked. he asked to account for 2-3 lb drop in pressure, I gave him the source that said that wasn't the case, and it was more like 1lb. I didn't account for why, just what the story said. The league "source" says there was only one ball that was close to 2 lbs and the others were closer to 1lb below. I have been fairly objective to this whole thing and kept most biases out of it.

 

Incorrect.

The quote said that the other footballs tested "closer to" 1 pound versus 2 pounds under. This implies they were over 1 pound under, and that at least one of the footballs was 2 pounds under.

By the way shula was correct in saying 2 to 3 pounds of deflation because the correct range from which the balls started was 12.5 psi to 13.5 psi. It is only being ASSUMED that all footballs were at 12.5 psi by people engaging in the mental tap dancing necessary to try and put forth the theory that atmospheric conditions alone account for the disparity. Which is a false theory.

So if one football tested at 10.5 psi then we know it deflated by between 2 and 3 pounds, because it could have started off at 12.5 psi or 13.5 psi, or anywhere between.

 

It is the end of the story, and it has nothing to do with being my opinion.

You've ignored this point 2 times already.

Why would the ball need to be at certain specifications before the game but not during the game? There's a certain amount of common sense expected. Following your "logic", if a ball went all the way flat during the game, but was tested in limits before the game, the refs shouldn't replace the ball, because it was legal before the game.

 

lol, ok Sherlock.

I'm not here to argue with you. Call Florio if you want to dispute his article. everything is an assumption or opinion until the report comes out, including my own.

 

I think it's worth looking at the actual rule to see what is stated because your argument with Fin D rests so much on the interpretation of what the rule says about the state of the footballs during the game. First of all, here's the link to the rulebook:
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2013 - Rule Book.pdf

The rule in question is Rule 2.

Now, Stringer Bell pointed out that it says at the end of rule 2 that the home team has to furnish "playable balls" at all times during the game. So what exactly is a "playable ball"? They don't explicitly define it, and Fin D and Stringer Bell are making the argument that "playable ball" is implicitly defined under Section 1 (ball dimensions). If that's the correct interpretation, then you are wrong about the rule specifying the properties of the football (specifically, 12.5-13.5 psi) only at the beginning of the game.

However, I don't think their interpretation is correct. Note that it says this:

"In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball."

Now, here they use the term "proper ball" (this most likely does refer to Section 1), and failing to find a proper ball they can use the "best available ball", both of which by rule are considered "playable balls".

So, the way I read it, a "playable ball" is either a "proper ball" that conforms to all specs, or the "best available ball" that doesn't. What this suggests is that a playable ball does NOT have to have 12.5-13.5 psi during the game, assuming no other balls have 12.5-13.5 psi.

So the argument really should be about intent, not about whether the balls were found to be below 12.5 psi during the game. Of course, as has been pointed out by many posters numerous times, the magnitude of psi loss in the Patriots' balls seems to be too big to be accounted for by weather alone.

 

I should point out that I still think the Pats cheated, at least as far the evidence and odds are concerned. I also think it's ridiculous that the investigation takes this long and that it's possible a bunch of cheater get a shot at the Superbowl. However, perhaps that reality comes down to the crappy league rules which created this scenario.

 

Should be pointed out that it was Tom Brady himself who lobbied hard for this current system and the system was set up by the league in deference to he and Peyton Manning.

This points to an amount of conspiracy on the part of the Patriots that should not go unnoticed when it comes to the punishment. It would be like major financial companies lobbying hard for the removal of oversight and investor safeguards, succeeding in getting the governmental body to reduce oversight, and then taking advantage of the new system by engaging in nefarious activities. If caught, their being partly responsible for setting up a system they took advantage of to cheat would have to be weighed in the matter of punishment.

 

If you're going to put forward a bad argument, someone might come along and refute it. That doesn't mean you have to act like a 7 year old and begin name calling and whatnot. That's not what the board should be about. If that's the way you operate, I suggest going to finheaven.

 

That's true, you're here to advance any agenda or possible event that might mean the Patriots havent been systematically cheating for the past 7 years.

 

I throw out a possible number of 13.5 for the Colt's balls, as we don't know what any of their numbers were. People are saying that the Colts' balls didn't deflate: we don't know that. People are saying that they couldn't have deflated, as they were still in the 12.5-13.5psi range: again, not true, the balls could have deflated, and still been in that range, if they were set to 13.5psi initially. There was at least one ball that went as low as 10.5psi. According to one report, the rest were

11.6 is closer to one pound below than 10.5...just for reference.

It does not imply that. You infer that from it, but "closer to one pound under" could easily mean balls at 11.6 or 11.4. Could mean 11.7 or 11.8. Both of those numbers are "closer to one pound under 12.5." Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5psi. How am I making any crazy leaps to think that the Patriots balls were inflated to 12.5?

There are plenty of people being obtuse...and there are plenty of people passing off wrong or misleading information as fact. So far, I have been right up front with my ideas as being just those: ideas. The are reasonable explanations for this stuff, it just happens to not put me on the Patriots cheater train, in this case.

 

I've linked plenty of stuff that would be inflammatory to my own team. I even stated that if it goes down, Belichick should be fired.

and it would be 13 years, you left out spygate.

 

Bill Nye is apparently a Seahawks fan? Or is he just a Pats hater? Pretty hardcore video for the science guy.

 

Your a legend at finheaven CK. When I was there, they were always talking about you.

 

He either does or used to live in Seattle. If I am not mistaken, he got his start with Boeing.

 

Patriots dont make themselves a hard team to hate. Their cheating and lack of integrity i'm sure does the trick for most fans.

 

And not a word of it good, I'm sure.

 

Some good, the ones that were hating were all 'ladyboy' know it all's that were mad because they knew you know more about football then them. Some of the finheaven posters were so transparent.

 

ooooooh, damn thats jus unbelievable if true, Braaaaaaaaaaady, come out and plaaaaaaaaay..

 

man I looked over at the patriot planet website, like none of your fans will even acknowledge that this could of happened..why aren't they even acknowledging the circumstantial evidence that is pretty strong? why are they in such denial, I thought they would be smarter than that?

 

i've never been to that site, but on the patriots subreddit it's been pretty well talked about.

 

Hah. There are a lot of those there. That's why I don't go there anymore. That and some of the staff began to be pretty blatant in taking part in the same stupid childish shenanigans. In the end they have never got over being jealous that I tried to split my time between FinHeaven and ThePhins. One of the admins even PM'd me about it accusing me of just coming over to FinHeaven to post my work but not really "hanging out" there, choosing ThePhins for that instead, and he implied this is why the admins had begun to resent me. All very high school-ish and in the end I don't need that.

I go to the draft forum and post every now and then because there's one guy whose draft opinion I respect quite a bit, who is or at least was a football coach and is a guy that I know actually puts work into his draft evaluations. I can usually tell the difference between guys that actually put the work in, and guys that just talk like they put the work in. The guy in question comes off at times as arrogant to an extreme, and he and I have had some arguments that have gotten pretty personal, but I know he puts in immense workloads and I value his opinions accordingly. Honestly there isn't a television "expert" out there whose opinion I value more than his, though I probably value Tom Luginbill's eyes about the same.

There's another draft "expert" over there that is much more talk than work, but he thinks quite highly of himself anyway. He reminds me very much of the persona that Omar Kelly puts out for the public (which by the way is not the same as how Omar really is, for anyone that is wondering). This other "expert" seems to view everything as a fight for recognition and he's always talking like he's going to throw down with anyone who disagrees with him, touting his record and whatnot. He strikes me as a typical "bro".

 

What is the explination for that 1 ball?

 

I doubt the NFL would bring that up considering Peyton was involved as well.

http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...b-when-he-paved-way-for-deflategate/22355219/.

 

depends who you ask

 

I dont disagree with the spirit of the rule...qb should prep their balls they way that feels most comfortable, as long as they stay at 12.5 and up..if it comes out that he instructed someone to take air out of the ball thru a device, then its the highest level of cheating you can get, so you and the pat nation better hope that he didn't..and from what I've read and heard, i surely don't understand being in denial or simply avoiding the evidence...i guess it just comes from being loyal and the subconscious not wanting to deal with the reality if true..

so along with Manning he spearheaded the charge to change..

 

im asking the people who believe this was a result of a temperature drop

 

kickers prefer a harder ball.

 

i don't know? anything is possible at this point.

i hope it's not true and it's chocked up to weather or something else, if it is true, then I would like to see Belichick fired and Brady punished. i've read plenty of stuff the last few days, including a piece from one of your own reporters that supports the weather causing it, it's just a **** storm of back and forth. It's hard for me to decide what I want to believe.

kicking balls are separate from scrimmage balls

 

Kickers balls are handled by the refs. It's possible that he just missed it, there were already rumblings about the deflated balls and Pats I'm sure we're aware of them and he rushed in and out so not to be suspicious.

 

"Anything" is not really possible.

There's only one of two things that happened...either:

- The Pats had no idea the balls would go under the standard weight (or hoped they wouldn't). Which is still breaking the rules.

OR

- They knowingly cheated.

That's it. The crime happened, its just a matter of proving if it was intentional or not. This is not a vastly complicated scenario at this point. 2 outcomes. That's it.

And frankly, there's no science that supports the balls deflating on their own due to the weather that was present.