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Merge: Report: Joe Philbin wanted to replace Ryan Tannehill with Derek Carr

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by muskrat21, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    True. They were collapsing on Wilson.
     
  2. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    You're leaving out some important information:

    QB X's passer rating was 110 this season (102 for his career)
    QB Y's passer rating was 89 this season (85 for his career)

    QB X has earned himself a much greater benefit of the doubt than QB Y. That is why people say better things about him.
     
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  3. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The hell are you watching? Certainly not the Wilson play.

    That bias thing again ...
     
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  4. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    QB X has the 2nd highest passer rating of ALL time.Even accounting for post 2004 inflation that is magnificent.
     
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  5. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Yeah, but lets see him do it without Lynch and Jimmy Graham!
     
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  6. WestCoast Phins

    WestCoast Phins WestCoast Phins

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    A fair criticism. But the O-line must be addressed along with improved coaching. If that is not addressed T-hill and the next QB will fail.
     
  7. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The sad part is, after they lost Lynch, the argument was, well Rawls is just as effective. And that is true, he was.

    But then they lost him too! Starting week 14 (when they lost Rawls), 13 TDs, 1 INT over those 4 weeks. Over the last 7 games, since week 11, 24 TD, one INT. They lost Lynch week 10. It's clear Wilson and/or coaches said you need to step up, and he did. And his oline was NOT good and has not been good. The defense is always good, so they win more, but you need to isolate what Wilson does, and what he does, is unprecedented. I waver'd on whether I'd consider him elite but now I do. Doug Baldwin is your best WR? I love Lockett and think he'll be the #1 soon but he's just a rookie.

    Would Wilson win a super bowl here? Sure, we thought this team was playoff capable so why couldn't he? Our defense faltered a bit but they were mostly in the games until later. But they get tired.
     
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  8. Vengeful Odin

    Vengeful Odin Norse Mod

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    Hey guys, I appreciate your passion for all things Ryan Tannehill (and, for some reason in the context of this thread, Russell Wilson). But if you can't talk about it politely amongst yourselves we'll just close it down and assign points. No reason to be calling one another names and calling out posters for their opinion.

    It's the offseason, people are passionate. Try to remember that you're all fans of the same football team.
     
  9. P h i N s A N i T y

    P h i N s A N i T y My Porpoise in Life

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    Passion isn't exactly the word to describe most complainers on this board. It's a Poisonous addiction to pessimism caused by tramatic experience. That's as close as I can get to defining it. They've suffered more than we have, ( even though they're youngings ) and we need to support/pamper them through their struggles.

    Even if they've lost all hope and are awaiting the franchises ultimate demise. Remind them, " no one is good enough for you "
     
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  10. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    As opposed to poisonous addictions to happy thoughts about a franchise that has floundered for 15 years. :pointlol:
     
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  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    None of that matters in regards to what we're saying.
     
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  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It sort of does matter, as I believe having the games always within reach allows the QB to be consistently able to play from a place of comfort, not having to press all the time. When games are consistently having you have to score 25+ points on offense, while not having a run game, so you're throwing 35+ times a game, I think it's fair to expect the numbers to not be so stellar.

    Is it easier to complete 60% of your passes if you throw it 10 times or 50 times? Is it easier to have a higher ypa if you're throwing it 20 times or 50 times? Does the defense react differently to an offense that has a strong run game?

    For people to act like the defense doesn't play a big factor is ridiculous.

    Anyway, the only reason I brought up Seattle was because I had just watched the get a 4th quarter win (even though it should have been a Vikes 4th quarter comeback win), and it tied in to something someone else had said. Thanks for turning it into Wilson vs Tannehill, which it was never meant to be.
     
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  13. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm fine with saying Russell Wilson made an incredibly play. To me, it's a play that is almost routine for him. I think he's a remarkable athlete playing QB.

    But that doesn't mean I expect all other QBs to make that play or even that I'd want them to. Russell Wilson is as fast and agile as most RBs. Tannehill (if he tried to get away) probably would've been tackled or had just enough time to throw the ball away.

    There are certainly things Russell Wilson can do for you that other QBs generally can't and I'm happy to praise him for that. I guess for me, the drawback comes when you try and replicate it. How would you draft for that? You might get Cam Newton or Russell Wilson but those are very rare. The majority of those mobile QBs are guys like RGIII, Colin Kaepernick, Johnny Manziel and even Ryan Tannehill.

    It's also hard on an OC to have a QB that doesn't win in a traditional way. You can't account for the things that Russell Wilson is so famous for doing. You can't script that stuff. You can't put it in the game-plan. In a lot of ways, a team just has to commit to someone like that and risk everything falling to pieces as it did in SF when either the QB's luck runs out or when a staff comes in and can't accommodate it.

    So while it's easy to appreciate what Russell Wilson does, I think you also have to question whether it actually means anything for you or not. More often than not, you can't win over long periods with heroics. The solid plan so far for the Seahawks has put that great defense at the top. I think what the Seahawks prove is that if you take a team with an historically great defense like the 2000 Ravens or the 2006 Bears and you add a volatile, explosive QB to the mix, consistency may not matter. Russell Wilson's passer rating has always been comically high. We all know that he's not that good. I mean, he'd have to be the best QB that ever entered the NFL for that to be true. Clearly I think we have to look at his passer rating as being the product of a number of positive things all pointing in the right direction, but at the same time it comes back to being able to replicate it.

    If you think Miami should try and replicate that kind of model, stand by it. Great defense, strong commitment to rushing and a QB who can scramble around and make plays late in the game while almost NEVER turning the ball over.

    Hell, that might actually be easier to put together than the next 2007 Patriots or 2013 Broncos wherein a dominant QB just brutally takes over the league. Personally speaking I have said for awhile that I don't want Miami to sit around waiting for the next Dan Marino to appear. You can't build a franchise by waiting on Jesus Christ to come save you. Miami knows as much as any team that 1-guy will not give you much more than a bunch of division titles. You have to piece things together.

    If Miami was a more complete team (like Seattle is) then maybe they could reach on a 2nd or 3rd round QB that no one wants and stick him in there to be a 4th quarter hero. Instead, Miami seems to be expecting their guy to saddle the load which I don't think Tannehill will ever do for anyone.

    In the end, I don't see any need to worship or to denigrate Russell Wilson's work. It is what it is and in the context of the Seahawks it's perfect. I just wish Miami was as responsible an organization as Seattle.
     
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  14. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    I remember two years back when Tanny made this huge play, almost by himself, against the ravens. We were down by 1 or two points. 4th and 10, Tanny scrambles left tosses s 37 yarder to brandon gibson. It was the kind of defining play we'd been hoping for. We needed about 10 more yards for a field goal.

    Then Clabo whiffs on suggs, sack. Clay drops the ball 2nd down. Then Clabo whiffs again, strip sack this time, ball game.

    That sequence is the best possible short version of Ryan Tannehill's career so far that I can think of. He's done pretty incredible things from time to time, this team just never rewards him for it.

    I could go on, the amazing deep hail Mary to Wallace against the panthers that of course wallace didn't catch. The great comback against the Packers that our defense blew. He went back and forth with manning in denver all game but the defense never made a single play. Should have tossed the game winner to clay in Detroit last year but of course he dropped it, then the defense gave up the game winning td drive in the final second.

    RT deserves a better team.
     
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  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    ok, it's not how I judge elite but to each is own..who's elite right now is how I judge who's elite..
     
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  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    i won't mention any names but that's what is bothersome about this debate, just admit you were wrong, the guy this year shoved all the excuses folks had for his success right up their *** and all you hear is nothing.
     
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  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    or marshawn lynch.
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    bologna sandwiches..you were all about Wilson is overrated narrative..
     
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  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That's your perception, man. If you can't admit that his defense directly affects his play, I don't know what else to say.
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    this is the whole core of this dumb debate, or comparison, or whatever it is their doing when they called him overrated all year...some just don't understand what this dude does from a talent perspective, in and out of the pocket...you can tell by restore response to this very play he hasn't a clue how crucial how difficult that play was, he just chooses to point out that " it wasn't really a difficult throw"... And that's what's really freakin annoying...why hate on other great players to prop your position up, or they simply just don't understand how to evaluate the position.
     
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  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Why do you cut out half of what I said about it?
     
  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    His defense does not directly affect his play.
     
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  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    With all due respect, dj, I'm not sure how you can say that. Didn't he win his first game where his defense allowed more than 30 this season? Do you believe that if his defense had allowed more points on Sunday it would have made it much more difficult for Wilson to do nothing for 3 quarters, and still win the game? Do you not believe that having a defense that holds opponents, on average, to 16 points helps Wilson play loose, and directly affect the play calling that he has to execute?

    You can admit those things without changing your opinion that he is elite. Granted, I don't think he's elite, at least not right now. But, that doesn't mean that I don't think he's very good. I do. Wilson's innate physical abilities allow him to escape pressure, extend plays, and make plays that others can't. But, to discount the run game, and especially the defense, just seems naive to me.
     
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  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    you forgot to mention how great he is from the pocket when you were just giving him credit as a playmaker..... I evaluate players in isolation, variables to not take away or add to the final grade.
     
  25. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    You grade NFL players? Written down anywhere?
     
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  26. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    The Dolphins would never be able to replicate it with Tanny. Wilson simply has intangibles, pocket awareness, and big game mentality that can't be taught.
     
  27. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Oh Fin Diesel. I dig ya', but you are not going to drag me into this incredibly foolish convo. I've made my points clear in the past. It's just too ridiculous to dignify any longer.
     
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  28. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Just leave it there brotha'. :up::pointlol:
     
  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I've tried. LOL. This whole thing was not supposed to be about Wilson vs Tannehill. Other people turned it into that. Had the Green Bay game played out the way the Seattle game played out, THAT'S the game I would have used as an example of how 4th quarter comebacks are not all about the QB. Or the KC game. But I happened to have watched it happen in the Seattle game.

    People need to stop making more out of posts than are in them.
     
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  30. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    This statement is so true in so many situations.
     
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  31. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    I got your chief... how much QB have you played? He got lucky to recover then made an excellent play.
     
  32. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not going to get into the Wilson/Tannehill debate but to say the defense doesn't affect a QBs play is just not true. If you are constantly playing from behind you're more likely to be forcing things which in turn is more likely to lead to turnovers, sacks etc... If you are playing in a close game or with a lead any QB is going to be more conservative. That's not say they will still wouldn't try to make plays but they woouldn't be as reckless. Belichick made the comment a while back that Brady was the best QB in the league at throwing the ball away. If he was always playing from behind, he wouldn't have the luxury.
     
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  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    In defense of dj, I'd characterize the influence of the play of the team's own defense on its QB more as "indirect" as opposed to "direct". A bad defense will make certain plays more likely, sure.. but how well the QB makes decisions, elevates the play of his teammates, makes accurate throws etc.. is essentially not affected by what the defense does. And most of what "evaluation in isolation" tends to refer to is exactly how the QB plays given the situation he's in.
     
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  34. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    I've said this a million times, but it's a symbiotic relationship. It's not all defense leading the way every single time. They feed off each others' momentums.
     
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  35. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    You can't just simply say the defense affects the offense and leave it at that. It CAN affect the offense. Just like the offense CAN affect the defense as its much easier to play defense with a 2 score lead.
     
  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Calling something "evaluation in isolation" does not automatically make that something an "evaluation in isolation". Very often, we're told on here (or given the impression) that an evaluation was done in isolation only for them to compare it to other players' stats or results (which were not gotten in isolation).

    In reality, you can't even do an intellectually honest "evaluation in isolation" then compare the results to something that was in a different "given" situation.
     
  37. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    No disagreements there, which is why I used quotations around that phrase (it's one dj has used), but none of that changes my basic argument.
     
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Its easier but not all that different.

    Why is it easier? because the defense knows what's coming from the offense. Which is funny to me, that we can acknowledge its easier to play defense under those circumstances but cannot understand 9or admit) that is harder for the offense and QB to play form 2 scores back. I mean, if the defense does their job the only wa y a team can be two scores back is by 2 TO's for TDs, which doesn't happen all that much.
     
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  39. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's fine if you are going to look at situational stats but if you are taking a QBs a accomplishments as a whole whether on a game or career basis then the results from the defense will have an affect.
     
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  40. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Fair enough and when a QB overcomes the play of a poor defense it should be seen as even more of an accomplishment.
     
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