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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by GARDENHEAD, Oct 8, 2018.
Thank you...this makes my point, although it wont change any minds.
We could always take the Rocky Balboa (2006) approach to finding out how Marino would do in today's era. Build the best damn offensive line that's ever been built and bring him out of retirement. I bet that arm hasn't lost it's magic. The legs on the other hand...
Edited to add - This is actually a reoccurring dream that I have. Marino comes out of retirement to play QB for the Dolphins and doesn't miss a beat.
It's a valid point though- how does an unbiased national audience rank Marino above Manning, Montana or Elway? Heck, in New York I'm sure they think Eli is better than Marino because of his two rings.
I'd personally rank Marino top-2 and I wouldn't have Brady in my top-10 at all. It's why I usually stay out of these conversations though- it's a really subjective argument depending on your personal viewpoint.
I don't think you understand cbrad's post. It emphatically proves that you're out of your mind. lol
Its because your opinion is always negative. It’s exhausting.
ROFLMAO. Ah...you Dan Marino Fan (DMF)...well listen up, DMF, and let's take a closer look together so we can keep this friendly banter going.
Marino was great his first five years in the league. But after that, he only had one year where he was over 100 AQBR. I said he had the one magical year (1984), and some very good one's after that. THAT WAS MY POINT. Cbrad's post PROVED WHAT I WAS SAYING. Not out of my mind, but right there on paper...are you good there, DMF?
If you think that having one great year in the last 12 makes him the best ever, I think that makes you a DMF, and not a fan of objective stats. And we just disagree. Which is fine with me...I won't call you names.
I hope you see the point I am trying to make...a great QB, Definitely. The BEST EVER? No way.
It absolutely would change, and no they would not be wrong imo. Sorry, you can't just dismiss championships, it's literally the only goal of the team. Yes, it is a team sport, but a legendary QB should be able to will his team to at least 1. Marino is probably the biggest reason I am a fan of the team, but it is a black mark that he never got a ring. Or even multiple appearances.
I always reason that based on pure talent and ability? Yeah he's one of the top no question. But in terms of just general quarterbacking and a successful career? Much tougher to make the case.
This is absolute hogwash. I'm sorry if that's a bit offensive, but it's the truth. It's also why it's so difficult to discuss QBs because so many people have this idea that an elite QB can somehow his win a championship on his own. I blame ESPN and other media outlets who really push this idea that QBs are the ones responsible for wins.
Football isn't golf. All a person has to do is mention a few names in order to prove the fallacy of "A great QB wins Super Bowls":
Using SB's to determine individual greatness would be akin to claiming that Tiger Woods isn't possibly the greatest golfer ever because Team USA never won a Ryder Cup while he was on it.
Again, I don't think you understand cbrad's post. Actually, after this last post of yours, I KNOW you don't. lol
Except its not the point. Of course avg QBs win SBs. That's not the least in question. Its obvious. The point is that one great year, four or five good years, doesn't make one the "best ever". Not at all to say Dan wasn't a great player. He was, of course. But even with adjusting the QBR (thanks CBrad) there is no case to make that Dan was the best. Other than this board, NO ONE makes the case.
But thanks for playing, DMF.
ROFLMAO. Yeah. Ok. DMF, I notice you just "summarily" dismiss it, you don't address the issues I raised. You are right about one thing...ONE OF US doesn't understand. I think its you, DMF.
If you don't think Marino is in the conversation, based on stats, then you're seeing exactly what's wrong with basing things purely on stats.
Marino and Brady have something in common, and that is how they moved within the pocket to find lanes to throw..exceptional trait..
Anyone can be in the conversation....that's a silly semantical stunt. If you ask 20 different groups a football experts, who is the best quarterback in history of the NFL, and you rattle off 5 names, marino is likely not to be in that discussion. And I agree the stats, I think Johnny unitas was probably the greatest of all.
Gonna disagree. Gotta get at least 1. If you want to be considered an all time top 3-5? You have to have a championship. QB's aren't the whole team, but they are the most significant piece.
Terrible analogy, and those are the exceptions vs. the rule.
I prefer to think of it like this... If you switch Marino and Montana... Do the Dolphins win a bunch of Super Bowls? If you put Brady on Marino's teams, does he win Super Bowls? How may do you think Marino gets if he played on NE?
I just think far too much emphasis gets put on Super Bowls for QBs. Like saying Barry Sanders isn't in the conversation for GOAT because he never got a ring. Dude did stuff on the field that was like a video game.
Marino is the same, imo. He did do things that guys like Brady only dream about. IMO, Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer of all time, even though he'll never, ever break Jack's majors record.
Like, let's say Marino had gotten a ring in 84. Would that have changed his talent and skill?
Just out of interest Red, who would be your top 5 - I know that you said that Unitas was no 1?
Johnny U, Montana, Peyton, Brady, Favre. Rodgers may be when his career is over.
I think the whole who’s better thing needs to rethought and players placed in boxes for the timeframe they played. We also live in nostalgia. You can’t compare Unitas, Bart Star and others just like you can’t compare Marino and Montana to Brady or Aaron Rodgers. The game has changed so much over those players time that is always unfair as the games been skewed toward QB now.
I’d suggest you take a 10-15 year max timeframe and compare them against their peers during that timeframe.
Montana and Brady are pure products of their coaching and team success. They're not top 5 QBs.
Favre . . . LOL. 336 career interceptions and no other QB even comes close to that wretched mark.
And for your infatuation with championship QBs, none of them won one without a top ranked defense.
- Montana needed the #1 defense in the league to win the SB.
- Favre also had the #1 ranked defense when GB won the SB.
- Brady's defenses ranked #6, #2, #1, #8, and #1 for the Patriots championships.
- Rodgers had the #2 ranked defense to bolster him to get a ring.
I've posted it before, but for people who were too young to fully appreciate him(myself included) here's a threaded tweet on Marino's college career, and there are some wild ****ing throws in there:
Again, you don't understand cbrad's post. And without me or him or someone else explaining it to you I get to laugh at you even longer. lol
I dismissed nothing. You claimed that Marino had one great year and 4 or 5 good years. That's false and cbrad's post, which you don't understand, emphatically proves you as wrong.
Any legit "expert" who is grading QB's most definitely understands that there is an argument for Marino as being the greatest QB ever. Of course with such a subjective thing not all are going to agree on who is/was the best. However, only a complete r-tard would say that Marino isn't even in the conversation.
And your "DMF" title is also funny to me. Why? Well, I am a huge Marino homer, but I've said many times on this board that I don't have Marino as the GOAT. I think Rodgers will be one day and I think P. Manning currently is. So, if you're smart enough to follow that, you'd see that I will most likely have Marino as #3 when Rodgers retires. However, any person that want's to claim that Marino is the GOAT, there is an argument for that. However, anyone who claims that Marino isn't in the conversation, well, let's just say that that person is football stoopid. lol
Your first post in this thread read that Marino isn't in the conversation. So, which is it? That's not semantics, either. You should know the meaning of words before you use them. lol
Not in football. Is Barry Sanders a consideration for GOAT? Using championships in football to determine individual greatness is lazy and dumb. It just is.
My analogy was perfect. Tiger is arguably the greatest golfer to ever live, but when he played on a team, with inferior teammates, he couldn't win sh!t. Put Marino on the 2001-2017 Pats and he has at least 5 Super Bowl rings. Most likely more. Put Brady on the 1984-1999 Dolphins and he probably sniffs the playoffs his first few years and then rides off in to the sunset after that never to be heard from again.
Thanks for posting this. Pure magic.
if Montana isn't on the 49ers he may never win a ring, troy aikman isn't on a stacked dallas team he never wins a ring, in all honesty if you take Brady away from belicheat who knows if he ever wins a ring. I think there are very few players in the past 20 years that make a team immediately better dealing with the qb position if they had left the team or did leave a team. my top 5 would be favre, marino, elway, rodgers, manning (not eli) in no particular order.
I agree so much with your barry sanders comment, that guy by all means is the GOAT he did things with the crappiest teams emmit smith with his oline could only dream of. Imagine swapping smith and sanders for 5 years? OH MAN!!!!
If I had a time machine, the first thing I'd do is go back and win a mega lottery with the correct #s... the second thing I'd do is go back and watch all of Marino's games from High School to Pro in person.
You are indeed the biggest DMF I've seen. Glad you like it.
You must not get out much because I've barely mentioned Marino during my time here.
But, I'll take that as a compliment.
Shouldn't ALL Dolphins fans be DMF's???
That's how I meant it.
I was a Fins Fan for over a decade when Dan got to Miami. And I'm a fan, I just dont think hes top 5.
Marino is the best qb of all time. His teams were usually out matched. And you still felt like you were in the game till the end. He threw straight rockets. Not much loft under them. Even 60 yards. He had clayton and duper. They were what? 5’8”. Besides. Your on a dophins forum. How dare you say marino isnt the greatest. Best rb of all time. Barry sanders. Te. Tony gonzalez. Lineman. Anthony munoz. None of which won superbowls. Teams win the bowl. Not individual players.
Well, that puts you about a decade after me. And, personally, you are not coming over as a "realist" which I think is your desiderata. I don't know what you would expect coming on 'THIS' message board and categorically denying Marino even being 'in the conversation' for GOAT at QB, but it sure did provide a huge spoon with which to stir the pot.
But, it is basically impossible to evaluate different era quarterbacking for a comparison with any degree of certainty - Unitas, Montana, Marino, Brady (as much as it galls me to write that!), Farve, Manning, Graham (Otto for the youngsters) were all great quarterbacks, and there are more who could be penciled in. Some of the great ones were on flawed teams, some had lousy Head Coaches, some had abysmal luck, and others took off like rockets. Statistics are valuable, but they are not the be-all end-all means of evaluation - they are a tool. In the long run it all comes down to a human evaluation of what difference would Player A make on Team Zed instead of Player B at the most important (but not only) position in the game. All of which is to say that there is NO absolute proof (short of the Hand of God) of who is the absolute irrefutable supreme quarterback of all time. To each his own!
But, I do have a question, Red. Can you name a quarterback who has done more with less in the last 40 years. There is that definition of greatness as well. I mean, it's not like Winston Churchill keeping the U.K. and its (at that time) empire in the fight against Hitler for over two years by itself, but it certainly deserves attention.
Here's the thing- everyone has their own definition of greatness. I could argue Mark Rypien was the best quarterback ever. Why? Because I liked the Redskins in high school and they won the Super Bowl that year. While just about everyone in the known universe except Mark Rypien's mom would disagree, it doesn't make my belief any less true. (and no, I don't think Rypien was the best ever or even in the top 100....its just the first thing that came to mind that I could make an emotional argument for).
Any "all time greatest" argument is going to be heavily weighted by personal opinion and that's why it's senseless to argue it at all. To me, it's just arguing for the sake of arguing and someone's going to get their feelings hurt over something that doesn't matter. Plus, conversations like that summon the trolls to reap their havoc.