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Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by PeaTearGriffin, May 7, 2009.
espn can lay off favres bull**** just a littttttlllleeeee bit
nah probably not
[ame="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4148907"]Manny Ramirez of Los Angeles Dodgers will serve 50-game suspension for drug violation - ESPN@@AMEPARAM@@http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4149237@@AMEPARAM@@4149237[/ame]
Don't ask Don't Tell Manny...please....LOL
Well first you have to see what exactly Manny tested positive for. Doctors can prescribe anything, who's to say that Manny didn't get his denist to get him a prescription for HGH like Paul Byrd did? Plus who's to say Manny is telling the truth in the first place? Also consider Manny said he won't challenge the suspension and now reports coming out are saying the drug he tested positive for is a steroid masking agent, you can't give these guys the benefit of the doubt anymore.
And you're really willing to believe JC Romero's excuse? It's the same excuse guys like Clemens and Bonds have been using just now he's throwing GNC under the bus instead of a trainer or doctor.
What I meant with the karma comment was that Manny is finally getting his for the crap he pulled last year. No the Dodgers haven't done anything wrong but since he's their guy now, they're the ones that have to pay now.
Ahhh cmon bro.
Stop a second, go look up annual Salaries for all the Teams.
Hate to say it, but along with the instant Success, Joe Torre has also brought a HUGE salary with him. You have silently become the Spinstripers of the West Coast.
A certain second baseman named DUSTIN!
why cause hes small???
there are plenty of P.E.D that dont give you huge gigantic muscles bro
Well, at least they can match up with the Angels there. And a huge chunk is still going to Juan Pierre, Jason Schmidt, etc.... But most of the guys doing damage outside of Manny are cheap young guys.
Might as well suspend the play for an entire season to make it even for everyone guilty.
Well, there goes the home streak though not because we couldn't put up runs...
Not anymore...its now known as the north end again.
Spoken like a fan of a team that can't, or won't put out more money.
You want to know why the "buying a championship" will never fly? Not with the Dodgers, not with the Yankees, not with the Redsox or anyone else?
Because the last time I checked, NONE of these guys are playing for free. So until a team fields at least ONE player that plays for free, than no one can accuse another of "buying" a championship. They are all buying a championship. Its the worst argument in sports.
Don't blame L.A. because the D-Backs are underachieving...again.
No, this where you aren't paying attention.
Of course they aren't playing for free, but just like any sport, you obviously are going to have different tslent levels.
Those with more talent are going to garner more money. Those teams that pay outlandish salaries are going to end up with the best players.
Those that can't pay exuberent salaries become Triple A-1/2 clubs for the teams that CAN afford to pay rediculous sslaries.
Leave the Women's Fertility Drug user alone......
I think I got it. L.A. pays all of their players 50 bajillion dollars a day.
I am not seeing a big payday yet and this is the heart of L.A.'s team.
Yes, Manny has a huge contract, but its not like he had 25 teams knocking down his door. Hell, L.A. is the only one who bid on his services.
So who is the big ticket player on the Dodgers that plays?
Furcal? Casey Blake? Orlando Hudson and his $2 Million dollar salary?
I think I just named their entire starting lineup, their top two pitchers, and their closer. Lets see, maybe their bench has a bunch of billionaires sitting on it?
Blake DeWitt, Mark Loretta, Juan Castro, Brad Ausmus, Xavier Paul. Hmmm. Nope.
Well surely their bullpen must be smothered in gold coated pitchers?
Will Ohman, Ramon Troncoso, Guillermo Mota, Ronald Belisario, Brent Leach.
But I can see your point.
On a sidenote, anyone want to trade L.A. a good reliever? Looking at that roster right now makes me want to puke!
dont over pay for one everyone will thin kyou are buying a division win....
i love this "bought a championship" stuff.....i have been guilty of saying it....but it is absurd. there is nothing stopping private owners to put a ton of money in their ball club. spend money to make money. or put all your money in scouting like the marlins and do it their way....its been succesful.
I am not saying that L.A. is a small market club. They aren't. They do have a heavily leveraged owner though who has pretty slashed payroll as much as he can while still trying to justify to the fanbase.
If you add in that they are paying for Andruw Jones, Jason Schmidt and Juan Pierre to basically sit with their thumbs up their ***, than their payroll looks completely bloated. But looking at who is actually playing and contributing, the Dodgers are not that high.
Besides, who cares if they are, right? MY whole point is that none of these guys play for free, so using the buying a championship argument is folly. There is a reason thay are called owners. Because thay have aLL bought something.
I don't understand how the topic shifted from Manny but I'll play along: Regardless of whether or not you agree with the spending habits of certain franchises, would you concede that the economics of baseball are flawed?
Even as a Red Sox fan, this is painfully obvious to me. And I can't speak for other posters, but I believe this is the point to which they were alluding.
Miggy did that in one offseason dude. He didn't have a gradual increase in size like some other players. He was tiny in his rookie season compared to his 2nd and 3rd seasons.
I have to disagree slightly. I wouldn't accuse the Dodgers of buying a Championship, but the Yankees and Red Sox I think you can make a good argument.
My case is simple: If you are a team that can outbid any team, any time, for any player then yes, I will say you are (attempting) to buy a Championship.
Mark Teixiera, CC Sabathia and AJ Burnett have bloated contracts because NY outbid every other team for their services, not because they are worth that much. JMO though.
Let's hear it...
I count three big ticket FA signings on the roster: Daisuke, Drew and Bay (Bay came via trade, which wouldn't have happened without another big ticket FA in Manny, so I'll count him).
Hardly "buying a championship."
1. J.D. Drew 14,000,000
2. David Ortiz 13,000,000
3. Mike Lowell 12,500,000
4. Josh Beckett 11,166,666
5. Julio Lugo 9,250,000
6. Daisuke Matsuzaka 8,333,333
7. Jason Bay 7,800,000
8 a. Kevin Youkilis 6,250,000
8 b. Jonathan Papelbon 6,250,000
10. John Smoltz 5,500,000
11 a. Jason Varitek 5,000,000
11 b. Brad Penny 5,000,000
13. Tim Wakefield 4,000,000
How many teams could afford to pay Julio Lugo 9 Mill a year? Just because you acquired those guys in trades doesn't mean you don't have to pay them.
I'll admit you guys aren't as bad as NY, and Im not saying you're doing anything other teams wouldn't if they had the money, Im simply pointing out that you are outspending other teams to put the best product on the field.
EDIT: One other thing I wanna point out. Kevin Youkilis and Papelbon are the only two guys on that list that were drafted by the Red Sox.
OK, let's go down the list:
1) Drew - FA signing, already made reference to him.
2) What did Ortiz sign for during the '02 offseason? The guy, for the first half of '03, was riding the bench in favor of Jeremy Giambi. You're going to blame the Red Sox for finding undervalued talent? Seriously?
3) Lowell was a salary dump as part of the Hanley Ramirez deal. Hardly a case of the Red Sox only fronting some money and foregoing a draft pick. He's the best SS in baseball.
4) See above.
5) FA signing - bad move by the FO.
6) FA signing - already referenced.
7) Trade/FA - already referenced.
As for the rest of the list, signing anyone to a contract under $6 million per in baseball is hardly "buying a Championship."
The Red Sox have the resources to sign their own, which is something that not every team in the league has the ability to do. This is why I made reference to the fact that the economics of baseball are flawed in an earlier post. However, you cannot say that the Red Sox simply outbid everyone for the talent on their roster. In fact, you could perhaps make an arguement that the two least successful players in the top 8 are FA signees (Drew and Lugo).
EDIT: Of course, what you forget to mention is that Hanley Ramirez turned into Beckett and Lowell, and Heathcliffe Sloccum turned into Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe.
Lets be honest dude the red sox, because of the size of their market and willingness to pay, can and do spend large amounts of money on players. Its not really something to be ashamed of but, I think we can all admit that it makes it harder for smaller market teams to compete. I would say the dodgers, mets, yankees and redsox have this ability to spend large amounts of money and do so. Its kind of the equivalent to what walmart can do to other businesses. Which is just squeeze them out of competition.
In regards to the price tag issues, nobody is getting the big picture.
Whether its money all being spent on thid years roster or past bad dealings is moot.
The fact is that a small handful of teams CAN and DO overcome HUGE exclusive salaries every single year.
What the first thing we see when any top-tier FA becomes available?
There is ALWAYS a very very short list of EXCLUSIVE teams mentioned. The same few teams have a chance to financially regroup every year.
As for the Bo-Sox
only having 3 marquee players, my heart bleeds for you. That is 2 more than most teams, and 3 more than some
Anybody else think its funny Manny was actually busted for a female hormone?
Says the fan of the team who signed Derek Lowe to $60 million @ $15 million per year this past offseason.
Don't know where this came from.. but I digress.
My point is, there's a difference between spending huge money on UFAs (i.e. buying a championship) and spending that money to keep guys you've acquired/developed.
at least derek lowe performs.....brad penny FTL
Pot meet kettle.
Whatever, this is a hopeless exercise. Back to Manny...
so I'm being a hypocrite because a team I have no control over signed a player to a big deal? Hate to break it to you but in no way does that refute my argument.
interesting article on what they caught manny with
I really don't understand the list, especially why you only listed 13 guys and then say that Youkilis and Papelbon are the only ones that were drafted by the Red Sox, yet fail to mention (assuming you used ESPN.com, which it looks like you did) that Pedroia is next on the list, followed by Lester, Delcarmen, Ellsbury, Masterson and Lowrie who were all drafted by the Sox, not to mentioned Buchholz, Bowden and Jones who aren't listed. Again don't understand your point. By looking at the Braves page on ESPN.com there are only 4 home grown Brave players in the first 13 on the list so what does that mean? Anything?
The Sox have both the money to sign big free agents (which they actually haven't in 2 years) and a top notch farm system that has pumped out big league players for use for their team and also for use as trading chips (like Hanley, Anibal Sanchez, Kelly Shoppach, Craig Hansen, David Murphy, Kason Gabbard, Engel Beltre and Brandon Moss) ever since the new ownership took over.
Also let's mention that the Red Sox spent a grand total of $14 million dollars, which is 1 million dollars less than Derek Lowe gets per year or 2 million dollars more than Kyle Farnsworth got from the Royals, this offseason on 6 guys (Smoltz, Penny, Baldelli, Kotsay, Saito and Tazawa) which was in the bottom 3 this year with the Marlins and Pittsburgh. Again the Sox have made some big signings like Clement, Lugo, and to some degree Drew that they can write off as a sunk cost that would hurt smaller market teams but they're not simply outspending teams because they can. They're doing it with a combination of development, trades and free agents.
Ah yes, what were the Sox thinking giving Penny, an injury risk, 5 million dollars for 1 year to be the team's #5 starter and if he sucked they could let him walk and have guys like Smoltz, Bowden, Buchholz and Masterson to replace him and if he's good they could either resign him or let him walk and collect comp draft picks.
I bet if you polled GMs around baseball they'd rather have Penny for 1 year at 5 million than Lowe for 60 million for 5 years, considering age, risk, health and wear and tear of course.
And yet the Yankees have won nothing with those bloated contracts(referring to the last decade of salaries, not just those you listed). So why do small market teams complain so much? Your owners are billionaires also, complain to them. But in the meantime, money doesnt guarantee success.
Baseball should have a minimum that teams have to spend, with the luxury tax the way it is there is no excuse for some of these payrolls other than greedy owners.
As for Manny...if anyone is buying the dr. gave me a bad script excuse you're insane.
atlanta is cheap but you know there are other teams that can't compete with the money la and new york teams generate.
There teams that dont earn as much revenue as larger market teams, this is true. That hasnt proven to make them less successful, or to make large market teams more successful necessarily. Even those teams could be spending more than they are. The Marlins payroll wasnt/isnt that low because they cant afford to spend more, they chose not to. I'm not going to cry for those teams.
I disagree that baseball's economics are flawed. Quite frankly, I contend that the NBA and NFL's salary structure is GHASTLY more flawed than MLB's. A rookie QB for the winless Lions is making more money than anyone else in the league. Cherokee ****ING Parks made $55 million dollars for being tall and white.
At least in baseball, you have to prove something over the course of years in order to cash in.
As for some teams spending more than others? Big ****ing deal. That is life. What do you want them to do? Spend evenly throughout? Place a salary cap? If you place a salary cap, you better place a salary floor as well to prevent cheapskate owners like the Royals/Marlins/A's can't continue to rob their fans of a decent team just to pocket the profits.
As it stands right now, they are given free money by the bigger market teams for doing absolutely nothing. It actually disgusts me.
Quite frankly, I think people use the "buying" a championship excuse because they are looking for a reason to hate a team. To them I say, shut up.
Completely agree here. It's funny that the owners of these small market teams complain about the big boys yet when they come to town they raise the ticket prices. I also don't hear them complain when they're getting luxury tax money from those teams as well.
Every owner has big money, some of them just choose not to spend it on the team. Before the Twins owner died earlier this year he was the richest owner in baseball and never raised his payroll.
The teams maybe can't compete maybe with trying to sign top free agents but with they could use the money they have to build a solid farm system ala Tampa Bay and Florida and compete that way. It's funny because maybe instead of Kansas City spending 14 million on Kyle Farnsworth they could use that wasted money on him and put it into the draft, ditto for Pittsburgh who's had top 10 picks in the draft forever and instead of spending money signing Matt Wieters they take guys that no little upside and just waste those picks, while teams like Tampa and Florida lick their lips taking top talent.
Seriously it's not rocket science and some teams are finally starting to realize it. That's how they can compete with the big markets.
Again I agree with this post as well. Like I said in my last post, the small market teams should pump their money into the farm system, draft and intentional scouting and work from the way up instead of wasting money on old veterans they will help the team win 2 or 3 extra games.