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Mando is both wrong and right about Bad Drafts in Miami

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Feb 8, 2011.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    True, though Wanny did develop Wally Ogunlaye, but 4 starters in 5 offseasons developed in house meant..Free Agents had to be overpaid to come to Miami.

    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/

    That last bit, about 26-29 yr olds being cornerstones, is the part he has right, however he overlooks the fact that most of the previous bad draft picks have been long since replaced by younger players by Ireland and Sparano and Co.

    The Dolphins cleaned house after every offseason so far, heading into 08 with 30 new players was the start, then in 09 more were cut/released/traded and prior to 2010 the same can be said, the roster is now Ireland and Sparano's creation with only:

    -Carey
    -Crowder
    -YBell
    -Fields
    -Will Allen

    Still under contract from the 07 season's 1-15 squad, even if the FA are added in

    -Williams
    -Brown
    -Soliai

    That is only 8 players from 07's 53 man roster still attached to the Dolphins in one capacity or another, over 80% of the roster are guys they have brought in, and after this offseason I'd expect that to dwindle down to 5 guys.

    The poor drafts of the past, and they were poor, have largely been erased.
     
  2. Agua

    Agua Reality: Try It!

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    This comment is not particularly material here, but back in the mid 2000s when the stat concerning "draft picks remaining on the team" was being thrown about, it was terribly misleading because it failed to take into account our players that had been cut in the many regime changes that were still playing in the league with other teams.
     
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  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Mando appears to be saying that because those draft picks did not pan out, the "core" on the dolphins is hollow, but that is not the case as the roster has been churned.

    It is about time for the work Ireland and Sparano have done to either bare fruit or to write it off as either a failure or underperformance.
     
  4. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    While the roster has certainly been churned, I think the other part of what Mando was saying is that a core of developed players from those drafts simply does not exist on this current Dolphins team. That type of core does not exist -yet.

    We have a young team with plenty of new players who are still developing. Which is a good argument for giving Ireland and company another year to turn this thing around.
     
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  5. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree that the core is not hollow. There is considerable young talent on this team. The problem is that lacks play makers. I actually don't think it lacks as many play makers as it appeared to last season but rather that the few play makers we had were not put in position to make plays, at least on offense. We know that the key to winning championships is passing efficiently and stopping the pass. The Dolphins have many of the pieces in place towards that end but are missing some key components.

    Defense:
    Davis
    Smith
    Dansby
    Wake
    Starks

    are all under 30 and have potential all-pro talent. And they all play positions that are instrumental in stopping the pass. I'd like to see them add another pass rusher and upgrade at S. They do have some in-house talent in Misi, Edds, Odrick and Jones who may also develop. I also hope they re-sign Soliai b/c of the importance of the NT in our base D.

    On offense:

    Long
    Marshall
    Bess

    are the only under 30 all-pro types in the passing game. Obviously, QB is the key component. I have said many times that I don't think Henne will ever be the answer, but I do believe he can be as good as an Eli Manning type. You can win with that if you have enough other pieces and while you develop a guy with franchise potential. They need a complement for Marshall and Bess that can stretch the field. IMO the most effective complement would be a receiving TE. Those are generally easy passes to a big target. Fasano is a good player but he doesn't stretch the field or create any mis-matches. Another way to complement our current talent is with a good receiving back. That could be your third down back or your every down back, ideally both. Brown was/is that, but was inexplicably not used as such. Using a back in the passing game would have made life easier for Henne and if he were explosive that could have generated some big plays from the check downs. But Brown also lacked the break away potential to stretch the field. The third option is a speed WR. I'm not as focused on this position b/c Hartline is decent and still developing. Also, it's the hardest pass for a QB to throw so the impact is usually less than what you get from the other options. Unfortunately, that is one position where there is some good 1st round talent in this draft. The other pass component we could use an upgrade at is C. IMO a stout interior that lets your QB step up and have clear sight lines helps you complete those easy passes to your receiving TE and to your WRs. Of course we also need an every down back that can run the ball just b/c we don't have one. You can't pass all the time unless you have a great QB and even if you do it is much easier to pass efficiently if the defense isn't pinning its ears back on every play. History has proven that this guy doesn't need to be a stud. You just need to have enough attempts to keep the D honest. Again, unfortunately this is another position where the draft might have this as the best player available in the first round.

    So, I don't think the cupboard is bare, we just have a dearth of offensive play makers that appeared even more dire b/c of how poorly they were used. IMO Ireland/Parcells have done a decent job of restocking talent, but they have failed to bring in enough offensive play makers.
     
  6. rtl1334

    rtl1334 New Member

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    I am amused how many refer to this upcoming season as some make or break year for Ireland. He has actually done a pretty good job of acquiring talent - as we all know the cupboard was pretty bare when he arrived. If we bomb this upcoming season due to bad coaching, I don't see this impacting Ireland directly - except for him going out and hiring the next coach.
     
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  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'll tell ya a good draft..

    VD21.

    SS24.

    Brian Hartline..

    Cam ''freakin freak'' Wake.

    Andrew Garner..

    Davone Bess..

    I think you can put this draft up against any in the past 3 decade..

    Irish deserves the chance to see if he can get this next one right.
     
  8. frozenfin

    frozenfin Well-Known Member

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    But if those drafts would have been successful, the 80%+ roster changeover may not have been so necessary. Would we be sitting with anticipation over 2nd and 3rd year players continuing to develop, or would we have already developed stars? The roster turnover was necessary because the group Sparano/Ireland inherited was so awful, nothing short of pressing the reset button would have brought success.

    It's not just picking the wrong players that hurt, it was trading away high draft picks that held back the ability to draft starter-quality players. The following years the Dolphins did not have a 1st round pick: 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003. In 2002 we didn't have a 1st or 2nd round pick (Ricky Williams and 2001 trade-up for Morlon Greenwood), in 2004 we didn't have a 2nd or 3rd round pick (AJ Feely and draft trade down), in 2006 we didn't have a 2rd or 5th round pick (Culpepper and Harrington).

    Poor trades that cost draft picks for the likes of AJ Feely and Daunte Culpepper were just as injurious, if not moreso, than actual draft picks. There were bad drafts in part because of very bad trades.

    If you want to judge drafts strictly by number of NFL starters produced from it, the 2005 draft was just as good as the 2008 draft because each currently has 3 NFL starters (Ronnie Brown & Matt Roth & Crowder vs Long & Henne & Langford).
     
  9. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    What Mando is saying is that there was nothing to build around when Ireland and co took over. No QB, no LT, no WRs, no TE. The defense was decent, but full of 30+ guys like Allen, Goodman, Holliday, Porter, Taylor, Thomas, etc. all of whom are out or on their way out of the league. You cant build around that. Now we have a solid young nucleus that came in together, can grow up together, and be the bedrock of the team for the next 4-6 years. Obviously there are pieces missing, but we're in a different hemisphere from where we started.
     
  10. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    Someone made mention of former Dolphin draft picks still playing in the league. It would be interesting to see the comparison of draft picks still playing compared to the ones no longer in the league. The Dolphins have to be one of the worst drafting teams of all times between the Johnson and Parcells eras.
     
  11. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    This.

    There is considerable young talent on this team, but most of them are still growing. The next few years should see a number of them start to hit their stride. Hopefully add in some playmaking components in the next year or so and this team can be quite good.
     
  12. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    True enough, and if you follow the logic in the article, Ireland deserves at least 2-3 more seasons...Many of these youngsters will be blossoming (that is, if they are going to blossom) next season and the season after...We have a slew of guys that just might become core players...whether they do, requires more time...starting over again [new regime] will only set us back another 3 yrs... That said, there's a lot of "if" players on the roster...
     
  13. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Well, Bess was a UDFA, and Wake from the CFL UFA. So...
    take those out and it's not quite as impressive...Though for our
    drafts, it's still pretty dang good.
     
  14. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Disagree with this point. They have not been erased by replacing with good players. It's just that they were so bad those players aren't on the team any more. Look at how many of those guys between 2000-2007 became great players. Zero. Jake Long is better than any player in those 8 years of drafting.

    Never much a fan of Armando. But, I think he's exactly right here: Basically, empty tank from 2005-2007. Can't disagree with what he notes about the bareness of the cupboard.

    And, given the nearly empty cupboard from 2000-2004, it's no wonder there are so many flaws on this team. Not that I think Sparano/Ireland haven't made some mistakes and am still wondering how, with a group that supposedly was to emphasize toughness on the OL, they have made such a mess other than the great Jake Long.

    I made a comparison to couple of other teams during that period (2005-2007) in which the Dolphins came up with 4 starters (but one is Crowder - who is not an impact player - Armando's description of Crowder was dead on; the others have been good but R.B. at #2 overall - though I love the guy - has not had the impact you want from the #2 pick - you want a 10 year guy with several pro bowls).

    Steelers pulled in 10 starters during the same era (during which they won a SB). Jets 6 including some major pick ups (Ferguson, Mangold, Revis & Harris).

    There is potential with a draft this year that garners 1 or 2 significant impact players and 3-4 starters overall - we could be building up a solid team.

    2007 - Pittsburgh Steelers
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 15 Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State
    2 46 LaMarr Woodley LB Michigan
    3 77 Matt Spaeth TE Minnesota
    4 112 Daniel Sepulveda P Baylor

    4 132 Ryan McBean DE Oklahoma State
    5 156 Cameron Stephenson G Rutgers
    5 170 William Gay CB Louisville
    7 227 Dallas Baker WR Florida

    2006 - Pittsburgh Steelers
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State
    3 83 Anthony Smith DB Syracuse
    3 95 Willie Reid WR Florida State
    4 131 Willie Colon T Hofstra
    4 133 Orien Harris DT Miami (Fla.)
    5 164 Omar Jacobs QB Bowling Green State
    5 167 Charles Davis TE Purdue
    6 201 Marvin Philip C California
    7 240 Cedric Humes RB Virginia Tech
    2005 - Pittsburgh Steelers
    Rd Sel # Player Position School
    1 30 Heath Miller TE Virginia
    2 62 Bryant McFadden DB Florida State
    3 93 Trai Essex T Northwestern
    4 131 Fred Gibson WR Georgia
    5 166 Rian Wallace LB Temple
    6 204 Chris Kemoeatu G Utah
    7 228 Shaun Nua DE Brigham Young
    7 244 Noah Herron RB Northwestern

    Though they wound up having to trade Holmes (and did get a 5th rounder) b/c of his issues, still got a huge SB winning play and lots of contribution from him. The rest have been contributors for years and all contributed heavily this year.

    Just a ridiculous comparison.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah - it's not all about the draft but a bad few years in drafting and it is going to seriously hurt a team. And, it has seriously.

    A team can afford a bad year drafting when they have 2-3 good years in a row. But the Dolphins are so far depleted they can't afford it. They need two really good drafts the next two years - and a big-time impact player or two (a Jake Long calibre impact) in the next two years. If they can pull that off we might have a shot at growing into a solid, consistently contending team.
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I agree with the thrust of your post Da'fins, the cupboards were bare when they arrived on the scene, my contention is we are moving into Cycle #4 of the New Regime, soon our good young players will be up for FA, so to me the work they have done should be more or less completed, but it is not completed as while I'd give them a B+ on Talent Acquistion overall, their Drafts have been more like B-'s to C's, just mostly average as the high picks work out, the mid level #3 and #4 picks have not consistently panned out.

    We have not had that "home run" draft yet, 2010's was a really good draft, but Odie being injured (and perhaps unneeded with the emergence of McDaniel) along with Edds is somewhat par for the course, in 09 instead of hitting it out of the park there was Pat White, in 08 there was Shawn Murphy, it just seems like they do not have everything altogether enough to make up for the barren shelf space of Wanny/Saban/Cameron..yet.

    So how much of the slight misses were the product of too many Chefs the past 3 yrs?

    That is what we will find out in late April as Ireland is completely running the show, tbh I really look forward to seeing what he can do on his own.

    And of course, if Chad Henne turns things around, along with Merling, their record will appreciably improve.
     

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