Ron, We are kindred spirits! http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/states-rights-revisited/ Patrick Henry, arguing against ratification of the Constitution, admonished Virginians to “Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it, but downright force: Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.” The states did not voluntarily “give up” that force in 1861-65; it was wrested from them by federal aggression. Before the Civil War, individuals were protected from centralized coercion by multiple, divided sovereignties, competing in their interpretations of the national charter, and backing their respective interpretations with force. After that war, individuals were confronted with a powerful unitary state, one that justified its aggression—domestic and foreign with appeals to “liberty.”
I love your link: IMHO either way is the way to go. Every time I've seen a state stand up to the Feds when it has finally reached the SC the state has won. We need to remember that, if used properly, the system can/does work. The problem, as I see it, is getting the average American to separate The "Constitution" and the "Union" to be able to make the above work. What do you think?
I fear the average American doesn't give one twit about the Constitution, Ron. Have you ever seen this? “The history of nations shows that the cycle of the body politic slowly but surely undergoes change . . . It progresses – From bondage to spiritual faith From spiritual faith to courage From courage to freedom From freedom to abundance From abundance to selfishness From selfishness to complacency From complacency to apathy From apathy to fear From fear to dependency From dependency to bondage.” The same book I got this from also stated; once a people lose their liberty it takes an average of one hundred years to win it back. It also stated, the price of liberty is always BLOOD, human blood. I have completely lost faith in the people of the United States of America. Especially our elected officials. We have strayed along way from what the founders intended this nation to be. I'm preparing for the worst, but praying for the future to be brighter than what I invision it to be for my children and grandchildren. My greatest prayer is that the people and elected officials reacquaint themselves with the Constitution and stand fast by it. I believe God had a hand in its origin, and will also have a hand in its salvation.
My question that I want to know is "What is treason against the United States?" If secession/war isn't then what could be? Its an honest question on my part because openly saying I don't want anything to do with the country I am apart of and want to take up arms against it seems like treason to me. I know there are/were state rights but it is/was called the "United" States of America. I also know that the government was much more state based until the civil war but there was still an understanding that it was supposed to be a Union even if loosely. These are all things I am interested in so no one take this as an attack, I am always willing to have my views swayed and get all the information I can but once again I still want to know if secession wasn't/isn't reason then what is?
Also I love this quote and think a thread should be started on this topic. It's actually what I do all of my work on and am so fascinated by it. Thanks Mole for sharing if you ever want to start a thread on religion and the Constitution be my guest, I would love to chat about that. End strange rant.
IMHO treason is when is when a person or group of people fight to overthrow the Government by force. The American people "overthrow" the government peacefully every 4 years. Thats not treason thats just throwing the bums out. http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/charters.html The key word IMHO is consent If you read our Constitution you will find that the founders were so ready and willing to break up the Confederation to put this Constitution into law that they only required 9 yea votes out of the 13. The other states would be allowed to go their separate ways. In point of fact only 11 states joined in the begining. NC and RI being the two that held back. The Articles of Confederation required that to secede all 13 states had to vote to do so; so it is very ironic that when they tore it up two states were against doing so. England didn't declare us traitors to the Crown when we broke away. We weren't trying to overthrow the King; we just wanted out. The 7 seceded Southern states had no intent on overthrowing the United States they only wanted out and followed the proper way to do so. So if you go to war to keep someone from leaving how can you call it treason? If you keep them in that union against their will that government can't very well derive its powers "Justly" can it? The thing about the Constitution that is so great IMHO is the fact that it is written so that the average person can understand it meaning. The problem, as I see it, is that most people don't care enough to read it in the first place.
the prism thru which we view history makes a profound difference. because of how it is taught in schools, most people do not know the follwing; the founders always referred to "these" United States, in the plural, not as "the" United States. this was done to acknowledge the sovereignty of the states of the Union. prior to the 17th amendment, US Senators were elected by state legislatures. this is significant because US Senators were in Washington as representatives of the individual states, much like foreign embassies exist now. i bring these examples up because if one takes the strict constructionist viewpoint of the Constitution, as i do, then it is those who perverted the original intent who are the treasonous ones, and it is the duty of patriots to oppose them. be it the Union side of the War Between the States for prosecuting war against the South, most of which did not secede until Lincoln called for troops from those states to invade SC after it had seceded. or those in congress, the courts (when they legislate from the bench), or the White House, when they ignore the 10th amendment, cheques and balances, spend money on things clearly not allowed for in the Constitution, justify it all because of the words "promote the general welfare," and usurp powers specifically reserved for the states or the people.
So very true and one other small forgotten fact: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/ch...oom_pages/charters_of_freedom_zoom_6.1.1.html This is George Washington's copy and if you will notice it names each state. On the side bar it states the following: This is the most garldurndest lie ever put forth by the Federal Government, the change was done for the sake of Clarity and simplisity. The other reason is that they didn't even know if it was going to pass, another reason to state that a 9 state yea vote was all that was needed to pass it. Along with the fact that they were not doing what they were told to do by their state reps. They were only authorized to amend the Articles of Confederation and that, in it self, was the reason this was all done in secret.
Thanks brother. I don't know when I'll have time to engage in such activities. I just got a new addition to my family yesterday. Y'all please welcome "Taylor" my newest granddaughter to the Miami Dolphins Nation. She was born a month premature but she and mom are doing well. Granddaddy and GB (that's what they call Grandma, are going to have their hands full minding the lambs as momma recoups. They will spend the next couple of weeks with us until their new home is finished. They will have a beautiful new home on the St. Johns River that granddaddy expects to exploit to the fullest this spring and summer kayaking, fishing and looking for Indian artifacts. As things calm down, I hope to oblige you with your request. If anyone else chooses to start the thread I'll be looking for it.
This is where I think we are. My overly simplistic answer would be: "Secession is when you try to leave the house. Treason is when you try to burn it down on your way out."
Me too Steve. God help us if we can't get it turned around. Honestly, I blame the "Third Estate" on much of this nations problems. It has been their charge to keep an eye on what's right for the Constitution not what's right for the two political parties in power. They have really let us down!
